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[ContrarianAsshole]

After the soviet union fell there were massive cuts to the military and 'capital' couldn't do anything. This is just your false ideology speaking. The reason the US spent so much time in those countries was because they believed in stupid leftist ideas like universalism. If they understood the nature of the world, how different humans and races and cultures are, they would've figured it out without spending so much blood and treasure.

Corpo lobying is strong, but nowhere near strong enough to get itself an extra trillion dollars from the government for no reason, convincing senate to keep defense spending at 10% would have been too hard and on the nose. Que 10 years later when a very lucrative business opportinuty turned up ...

I remember hearing an argument by Dan Carlin on why America gets itself in brutal offensive wars in spite of it's liberal idealism, and he reasoned that your country has 2 sides, one runs on realpolitiking, that wants to stomp around and get it's way, no fucks given, and the other, liberal cosmopolitans who feel it's their moral obligation to help other people around the world. If you can get the latter to believe that an overseas war will bring freedom and prosperity to the people being invaded, then you just gained consent from most concerned parties to go to war. I don't know if he's exactly right, it's probably more complicated than that, but the point is that it doesn't have to be one thing or the other. It's a convergeance of interests at play, and one major player in this kind of arrangement are absolutely the defense contractors and their wipping boys in congress.

 

[calico]

The US is not stabbing anyone in the back, President Trump just understands that it's well past time for some strict parenting after decades of spoiling the child by allowing Europe to mooch off of the US. He tried begging and cajoling Europe to get its act together and that didn't work (in fact they laughed, right before everything he predicted in 2018 came to pass), so now the child has had to be exposed to a small dose of reality for its own good.

Europe is predictably having a tantrum about this change in situation, but it is also coming to understand that if it wants to stop being treated like a child, it has to get a job and move out. Europe is not a bombed out wasteland anymore and hasn't been for a long time; it should be perfectly capable of providing for its own defence, and of pulling its weight in contributing to the Pax Americana.

The reality for decades has been that in any situation like this, the expectation is that most of Europe will contribute nothing or a token effort at most, and that it has been allowed to become so reliant on the US military that it could not provide much more than a token effort even if it wanted to.

 

[P:axMagellanic]

UK is trying to be important. Probably will be like in 1945 where the capitulation act had a french signature and one of nazi commanders said something like "oh! and french are here too!".

I guess this weekend something interesting might happen. When the markets close, the launch sites open.


To be fair I would like both France and UK not being involved in the iranian situation too due to the mess related to Mosaddegh, Shah, the first ayatollah Khomeini being both french and british governments fault (together with a weak Carter administration and commies). Granted it was a Cold War mess. But oh well.

It is important, the fact that the US has needed it's bases in Akrotiri for Israel, Diego Garcia and literally UK mainland just a few weeks ago alongside the RFA Tidewater proves that.

It's literally the UK in the GIUK gap, you know, a key part of the whole Greenland thing from just last week?

You don't know what you're talking about, chauvinist delusions are clouding your judgement.

 

[Bojji]

The US is not stabbing anyone in the back, President Trump just understands that it's well past time for some strict parenting after decades of spoiling the child by allowing Europe to mooch off of the US. He tried begging and cajoling Europe to get its act together and that didn't work (in fact they laughed, right before everything he predicted in 2018 came to pass), so now the child has had to be exposed to a small dose of reality for its own good.

Europe is predictably having a tantrum about this change in situation, but it is also coming to understand that if it wants to stop being treated like a child, it has to get a job and move out. Europe is not a bombed out wasteland anymore and hasn't been for a long time; it should be perfectly capable of providing for its own defence, and of pulling its weight in contributing to the Pax Americana.

The reality for decades has been that in any situation like this, the expectation is that most of Europe will contribute nothing or a token effort at most, and that it has been allowed to become so reliant on the US military that it could not provide much more than a token effort even if it wanted to.

There was not a single instance when USA was helping any NATO European country defending itself (correct me if I'm wrong), while USA was using military bases that are in Europe constantly (every ME war for example) and Europe was spending billions on US military equipment.

No one forced USA to spend trillions on its military, USA did this to serve it's own interests and project their power in whatever place they wanted to do it. Only country that has guaranteed USA protection is Isreal, rest of the world can never be sure if they will receive any help...

Europe building up their militaries is a very good side effect of what Trump and Putin are doing.

 

[EviLore]

There was not a single instance when USA was helping any NATO European country defending itself (correct me if I'm wrong)

Article:

Has the US ever helped a NATO country defend itself?

Yes, though the context is interesting. NATO's Article 5 collective defense clause has only been formally invoked once—after the September 11, 2001 attacks—when allies came to help the United States, not the other way around.

That said, the US has contributed substantially to the defense of NATO allies in several ways:

Cold War deterrence: The US maintained hundreds of thousands of troops in Western Europe for decades specifically to deter a Soviet invasion of NATO members. This was the core of NATO's defense posture.

Balkans interventions (1990s): The US led NATO air campaigns in Bosnia (1995) and Kosovo (1999) to stop conflicts that threatened regional stability, though these weren't attacks on NATO members themselves.

Baltic and Eastern European reassurance: Following Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea and especially after the 2022 full-scale invasion of Ukraine, the US significantly increased troop deployments and military assets in Poland, the Baltic states, and Romania to strengthen deterrence and defense.

Turkey (1991): During the Gulf War, NATO deployed aircraft and Patriot missile batteries to Turkey to protect it from potential Iraqi attack—a case where the US contributed to defending an ally facing a plausible threat.

So while there hasn't been a scenario where the US fought to repel an active invasion of a NATO ally, the US has been central to NATO's deterrence and has taken concrete steps to defend allies when threats emerged.

Source: Claude

 

[Bojji]

Article:

Has the US ever helped a NATO country defend itself?

Yes, though the context is interesting. NATO's Article 5 collective defense clause has only been formally invoked once—after the September 11, 2001 attacks—when allies came to help the United States, not the other way around.

That said, the US has contributed substantially to the defense of NATO allies in several ways:

Cold War deterrence: The US maintained hundreds of thousands of troops in Western Europe for decades specifically to deter a Soviet invasion of NATO members. This was the core of NATO's defense posture.

Balkans interventions (1990s): The US led NATO air campaigns in Bosnia (1995) and Kosovo (1999) to stop conflicts that threatened regional stability, though these weren't attacks on NATO members themselves.

Baltic and Eastern European reassurance: Following Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea and especially after the 2022 full-scale invasion of Ukraine, the US significantly increased troop deployments and military assets in Poland, the Baltic states, and Romania to strengthen deterrence and defense.

Turkey (1991): During the Gulf War, NATO deployed aircraft and Patriot missile batteries to Turkey to protect it from potential Iraqi attack—a case where the US contributed to defending an ally facing a plausible threat.

So while there hasn't been a scenario where the US fought to repel an active invasion of a NATO ally, the US has been central to NATO's deterrence and has taken concrete steps to defend allies when threats emerged.

Source: Claude

Yeah, it was mostly deterrence against USSR but while during the cold war I think USA help was more or less guaranteed, after that it's up in the air. Article 5 itself is not a 100% guarantee of military help from other NATO members.

 

[EviLore]

 

[Bojji]

Once again they will beat (and kill) their own citizens into submission.

 

[YCoCg]

Trumps recent comments about NATO and past help has not gone down well in Britain, especially amongst the right leaning who were supporting him, most are saying it's a slap in the face and disrespecting the British soldiers who have died in wars for America.

 

[Warspite]

It was, we brought back 456 boxes from Helmand province, when no one else wanted to put troops there. What I wont do is tar a nation because of it, Obama wasn't a fan of us either back in his day, politicians they come and go, the people of these nations have soldiered on. The yank have been quite good a filling in some of the holes we left due to gambling on defence cuts btw. (Martine patrol, Radar aircraft and carrier training to name a few) Last I will say about the off topic.

 

[StabbyStabStabStabStab]

Europe will contribute nothing or a token effort at most

A little more than ol' Bone Spurs though eh?

 

[RJMacready73]

You're essentially taking the the Iranian theocracy's side there just because you don't like Trump.

Typical of the amoral left, particularly in the UK.

With that you can fuck off.

Am I bollocks taking the Iranian regime's side I'm merely pointing out how a moron, a literal man baby with the worse human traits in the pockets of a russian dictator should be told to fuck off into the sea at every opertunity and not a single Nato soldier should give that cunt a second of their time, you voted that abomination onto the planet and we're all gonna have to suffer him for the next 3yrs.. look at what he's done in his first year fs

 

[EviLore]

Flights to the Middle East being cancelled en masse.

 

[RJMacready73]

Flights to the Middle East being cancelled en masse.

Has the carrier group arrived?

 

[EviLore]

Has the carrier group arrived?

Not yet, 1-2 more days estimated.

 

[calico]

There was not a single instance when USA was helping any NATO European country defending itself (correct me if I'm wrong)

You are wrong because every non-US part of NATO has been shielded almost entirely by the deterrence of the US military.

Europe building up their militaries is a very good side effect of what Trump and Putin are doing

An effect which President Trump has openly been calling for throughout both terms, to the point of having to resort to coercion to try and get Europe to take the situation it is in seriously. He was also correct in telling Europe it was courting disaster by funding the Russian military (and by being so reliant on Russian energy), while not funding its own military, all made possible by existing under the security provided by the US military.

People are talking about a few dozen or a few hundred casualties over two decades like these are significant numbers at a national level. These are tragedies and sacrifices at a personal level; at a national level these are not significant numbers and it's silly for people to act like they are. These would be rounding errors in the wars which regularly plagued Europe before Pax Americana enforced a degree of stability in the region, and which -if the US withdrew and left Europe to its own devices- would likely be plaguing it again right now and a lot further west than Eastern Ukraine.

 

[EviLore]

 

[Lord Panda]

I'm hoping it's a bit of misdirection with all eyes focused on the transit of the CSG.