Support NeoGAF

[ContrarianAsshole]

After the soviet union fell there were massive cuts to the military and 'capital' couldn't do anything. This is just your false ideology speaking. The reason the US spent so much time in those countries was because they believed in stupid leftist ideas like universalism. If they understood the nature of the world, how different humans and races and cultures are, they would've figured it out without spending so much blood and treasure.

Corpo lobying is strong, but nowhere near strong enough to get itself an extra trillion dollars from the government for no reason, convincing senate to keep defense spending at 10% would have been too hard and on the nose. Que 10 years later when a very lucrative business opportinuty turned up ...

I remember hearing an argument by Dan Carlin on why America gets itself in brutal offensive wars in spite of it's liberal idealism, and he reasoned that your country has 2 sides, one runs on realpolitiking, that wants to stomp around and get it's way, no fucks given, and the other, liberal cosmopolitans who feel it's their moral obligation to help other people around the world. If you can get the latter to believe that an overseas war will bring freedom and prosperity to the people being invaded, then you just gained consent from most concerned parties to go to war. I don't know if he's exactly right, it's probably more complicated than that, but the point is that it doesn't have to be one thing or the other. It's a convergeance of interests at play, and one major player in this kind of arrangement are absolutely the defense contractors and their wipping boys in congress.

 

[calico]

The US is not stabbing anyone in the back, President Trump just understands that it's well past time for some strict parenting after decades of spoiling the child by allowing Europe to mooch off of the US. He tried begging and cajoling Europe to get its act together and that didn't work (in fact they laughed, right before everything he predicted in 2018 came to pass), so now the child has had to be exposed to a small dose of reality for its own good.

Europe is predictably having a tantrum about this change in situation, but it is also coming to understand that if it wants to stop being treated like a child, it has to get a job and move out. Europe is not a bombed out wasteland anymore and hasn't been for a long time; it should be perfectly capable of providing for its own defence, and of pulling its weight in contributing to the Pax Americana.

The reality for decades has been that in any situation like this, the expectation is that most of Europe will contribute nothing or a token effort at most, and that it has been allowed to become so reliant on the US military that it could not provide much more than a token effort even if it wanted to.

 

[P:axMagellanic]

UK is trying to be important. Probably will be like in 1945 where the capitulation act had a french signature and one of nazi commanders said something like "oh! and french are here too!".

I guess this weekend something interesting might happen. When the markets close, the launch sites open.


To be fair I would like both France and UK not being involved in the iranian situation too due to the mess related to Mosaddegh, Shah, the first ayatollah Khomeini being both french and british governments fault (together with a weak Carter administration and commies). Granted it was a Cold War mess. But oh well.

It is important, the fact that the US has needed it's bases in Akrotiri for Israel, Diego Garcia and literally UK mainland just a few weeks ago alongside the RFA Tidewater proves that.

It's literally the UK in the GIUK gap, you know, a key part of the whole Greenland thing from just last week?

You don't know what you're talking about, chauvinist delusions are clouding your judgement.

 

[Bojji]

The US is not stabbing anyone in the back, President Trump just understands that it's well past time for some strict parenting after decades of spoiling the child by allowing Europe to mooch off of the US. He tried begging and cajoling Europe to get its act together and that didn't work (in fact they laughed, right before everything he predicted in 2018 came to pass), so now the child has had to be exposed to a small dose of reality for its own good.

Europe is predictably having a tantrum about this change in situation, but it is also coming to understand that if it wants to stop being treated like a child, it has to get a job and move out. Europe is not a bombed out wasteland anymore and hasn't been for a long time; it should be perfectly capable of providing for its own defence, and of pulling its weight in contributing to the Pax Americana.

The reality for decades has been that in any situation like this, the expectation is that most of Europe will contribute nothing or a token effort at most, and that it has been allowed to become so reliant on the US military that it could not provide much more than a token effort even if it wanted to.

There was not a single instance when USA was helping any NATO European country defending itself (correct me if I'm wrong), while USA was using military bases that are in Europe constantly (every ME war for example) and Europe was spending billions on US military equipment.

No one forced USA to spend trillions on its military, USA did this to serve it's own interests and project their power in whatever place they wanted to do it. Only country that has guaranteed USA protection is Isreal, rest of the world can never be sure if they will receive any help...

Europe building up their militaries is a very good side effect of what Trump and Putin are doing.

 

[EviLore]

There was not a single instance when USA was helping any NATO European country defending itself (correct me if I'm wrong)

Article:

Has the US ever helped a NATO country defend itself?

Yes, though the context is interesting. NATO's Article 5 collective defense clause has only been formally invoked once—after the September 11, 2001 attacks—when allies came to help the United States, not the other way around.

That said, the US has contributed substantially to the defense of NATO allies in several ways:

Cold War deterrence: The US maintained hundreds of thousands of troops in Western Europe for decades specifically to deter a Soviet invasion of NATO members. This was the core of NATO's defense posture.

Balkans interventions (1990s): The US led NATO air campaigns in Bosnia (1995) and Kosovo (1999) to stop conflicts that threatened regional stability, though these weren't attacks on NATO members themselves.

Baltic and Eastern European reassurance: Following Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea and especially after the 2022 full-scale invasion of Ukraine, the US significantly increased troop deployments and military assets in Poland, the Baltic states, and Romania to strengthen deterrence and defense.

Turkey (1991): During the Gulf War, NATO deployed aircraft and Patriot missile batteries to Turkey to protect it from potential Iraqi attack—a case where the US contributed to defending an ally facing a plausible threat.

So while there hasn't been a scenario where the US fought to repel an active invasion of a NATO ally, the US has been central to NATO's deterrence and has taken concrete steps to defend allies when threats emerged.

Source: Claude

 

[Bojji]

Article:

Has the US ever helped a NATO country defend itself?

Yes, though the context is interesting. NATO's Article 5 collective defense clause has only been formally invoked once—after the September 11, 2001 attacks—when allies came to help the United States, not the other way around.

That said, the US has contributed substantially to the defense of NATO allies in several ways:

Cold War deterrence: The US maintained hundreds of thousands of troops in Western Europe for decades specifically to deter a Soviet invasion of NATO members. This was the core of NATO's defense posture.

Balkans interventions (1990s): The US led NATO air campaigns in Bosnia (1995) and Kosovo (1999) to stop conflicts that threatened regional stability, though these weren't attacks on NATO members themselves.

Baltic and Eastern European reassurance: Following Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea and especially after the 2022 full-scale invasion of Ukraine, the US significantly increased troop deployments and military assets in Poland, the Baltic states, and Romania to strengthen deterrence and defense.

Turkey (1991): During the Gulf War, NATO deployed aircraft and Patriot missile batteries to Turkey to protect it from potential Iraqi attack—a case where the US contributed to defending an ally facing a plausible threat.

So while there hasn't been a scenario where the US fought to repel an active invasion of a NATO ally, the US has been central to NATO's deterrence and has taken concrete steps to defend allies when threats emerged.

Source: Claude

Yeah, it was mostly deterrence against USSR but while during the cold war I think USA help was more or less guaranteed, after that it's up in the air. Article 5 itself is not a 100% guarantee of military help from other NATO members.

 

[EviLore]

 

[Bojji]

Once again they will beat (and kill) their own citizens into submission.

 

[YCoCg]

Trumps recent comments about NATO and past help has not gone down well in Britain, especially amongst the right leaning who were supporting him, most are saying it's a slap in the face and disrespecting the British soldiers who have died in wars for America.

 

[Warspite]

It was, we brought back 456 boxes from Helmand province, when no one else wanted to put troops there. What I wont do is tar a nation because of it, Obama wasn't a fan of us either back in his day, politicians they come and go, the people of these nations have soldiered on. The yank have been quite good a filling in some of the holes we left due to gambling on defence cuts btw. (Martine patrol, Radar aircraft and carrier training to name a few) Last I will say about the off topic.

 

[StabbyStabStabStabStab]

Europe will contribute nothing or a token effort at most

A little more than ol' Bone Spurs though eh?

 

[RJMacready73]

You're essentially taking the the Iranian theocracy's side there just because you don't like Trump.

Typical of the amoral left, particularly in the UK.

With that you can fuck off.

Am I bollocks taking the Iranian regime's side I'm merely pointing out how a moron, a literal man baby with the worse human traits in the pockets of a russian dictator should be told to fuck off into the sea at every opertunity and not a single Nato soldier should give that cunt a second of their time, you voted that abomination onto the planet and we're all gonna have to suffer him for the next 3yrs.. look at what he's done in his first year fs

 

[EviLore]

Flights to the Middle East being cancelled en masse.

 

[RJMacready73]

Flights to the Middle East being cancelled en masse.

Has the carrier group arrived?

 

[EviLore]

Has the carrier group arrived?

Not yet, 1-2 more days estimated.

 

[calico]

There was not a single instance when USA was helping any NATO European country defending itself (correct me if I'm wrong)

You are wrong because every non-US part of NATO has been shielded almost entirely by the deterrence of the US military.

Europe building up their militaries is a very good side effect of what Trump and Putin are doing

An effect which President Trump has openly been calling for throughout both terms, to the point of having to resort to coercion to try and get Europe to take the situation it is in seriously. He was also correct in telling Europe it was courting disaster by funding the Russian military (and by being so reliant on Russian energy), while not funding its own military, all made possible by existing under the security provided by the US military.

People are talking about a few dozen or a few hundred casualties over two decades like these are significant numbers at a national level. These are tragedies and sacrifices at a personal level; at a national level these are not significant numbers and it's silly for people to act like they are. These would be rounding errors in the wars which regularly plagued Europe before Pax Americana enforced a degree of stability in the region, and which -if the US withdrew and left Europe to its own devices- would likely be plaguing it again right now and a lot further west than Eastern Ukraine.

 

[EviLore]

 

[Lord Panda]

I'm hoping it's a bit of misdirection with all eyes focused on the transit of the CSG.

 

[EviLore]

I'm hoping it's a bit of misdirection with all eyes focused on the transit of the CSG.

Yeah. Israel says it's prepared, commercial flights are being diverted. The OSINT projections from when the CSG's transponders were disabled are that it'll be there this weekend.

 

[Leopold]

Any reports about "quiet skies" in Israel is just bs - there are simply less flights on shabbat.

 

[Smiggs]

Yeah. Israel says it's prepared, commercial flights are being diverted. The OSINT projections from when the CSG's transponders were disabled are that it'll be there this weekend.

I kind of wonder if that statement about the strike group being that many days out is just a misdirection, and the strikes will begin soon. Guess we'll see this weekend what happens.

 

[Forsete]

These would be rounding errors in the wars which regularly plagued Europe before Pax Americana enforced a degree of stability in the region, and which -if the US withdrew and left Europe to its own devices- would likely be plaguing it again right now and a lot further west than Eastern Ukraine.

You are confusing Pax Americana with the European Union.

Pax Americana is dead now anyway, so wish us luck!

 

[BlackTron]

The U.S. benefited from having a monopoly on security. We get bases and intelligence all over the world and easily project power. In return, democratic allies do not have to spend heavily on security, which, aside from being good for them, is good for us because we can count on a stable ally that will not rock the boat. We are now trying to "have our cake and eat it too", expecting the same subservient as ever allies while coercing them into military buildups. It's a cunning plan not thought all the way though that has already caused irreversible damage that compounds daily.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

I hope the attack is devastating. If the rumours of defections are true then ayatollah might be cooked this time for real.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I hope the attack is devastating. If the rumours of defections are true then ayatollah might be cooked this time for real.

Don't be expecting any earthquakes, now

 

[RJMacready73]

You are wrong because every non-US part of NATO has been shielded almost entirely by the deterrence of the US military.


An effect which President Trump has openly been calling for throughout both terms, to the point of having to resort to coercion to try and get Europe to take the situation it is in seriously. He was also correct in telling Europe it was courting disaster by funding the Russian military (and by being so reliant on Russian energy), while not funding its own military, all made possible by existing under the security provided by the US military.

People are talking about a few dozen or a few hundred casualties over two decades like these are significant numbers at a national level. These are tragedies and sacrifices at a personal level; at a national level these are not significant numbers and it's silly for people to act like they are. These would be rounding errors in the wars which regularly plagued Europe before Pax Americana enforced a degree of stability in the region, and which -if the US withdrew and left Europe to its own devices- would likely be plaguing it again right now and a lot further west than Eastern Ukraine.

President Trump... don't make me laugh, he's a moron that has ruined your international reputation, he speaks like an idiot in a room full of adults, compare his lol speech to an actual statesman.. Mark Carney and actual intelligent leader, it's infuriating that we don't call it for what it is..

As for these "few hundred" casualties..
UK: 457, Canada: 165, France: 90, Denmark:44... Yeah way to go threatening Denmark who sacrificed 44 men to help the US in it's absolute shit show of a mission in Afghanistan, but what can you expect from MAGA, you're a few years from turning into Russia, you've already got your supreme leader and your brownshirts, just gotta burn down the Reichstag and you'll be fully there

 

[DeepEnigma]

Don't be expecting any earthquakes, now

Earthquake detected in Iran near Fordow nuclear facility

An earthquake with a 5.1 magnitude was felt in northern Iran on Thursday night, according to the U.S. Geological Survey, as Israel's military continues to

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[Tams]

You are wrong because every non-US part of NATO has been shielded almost entirely by the deterrence of the US military.


An effect which President Trump has openly been calling for throughout both terms, to the point of having to resort to coercion to try and get Europe to take the situation it is in seriously. He was also correct in telling Europe it was courting disaster by funding the Russian military (and by being so reliant on Russian energy), while not funding its own military, all made possible by existing under the security provided by the US military.

People are talking about a few dozen or a few hundred casualties over two decades like these are significant numbers at a national level. These are tragedies and sacrifices at a personal level; at a national level these are not significant numbers and it's silly for people to act like they are. These would be rounding errors in the wars which regularly plagued Europe before Pax Americana enforced a degree of stability in the region, and which -if the US withdrew and left Europe to its own devices- would likely be plaguing it again right now and a lot further west than Eastern Ukraine.

As great as Europe is, and as much as the peace they (we, I guess) promote is great...

The two largest wars by a long shot humanity has ever fought were centred in Europe and because of European rivalries. This is especially true for WW1, but really WW2 was just an extension of WW1 anyway.

 

[Dr. Samuel Hayden]

>attacking Trump while glazing Mark fucking Carney, president of a country that's literally in total collapse

Good lord.

 

[Tams]

President Trump... don't make me laugh, he's a moron that has ruined your international reputation, he speaks like an idiot in a room full of adults, compare his lol speech to an actual statesman.. Mark Carney and actual intelligent leader, it's infuriating that we don't call it for what it is..

As for these "few hundred" casualties..
UK: 457, Canada: 165, France: 90, Denmark:44... Yeah way to go threatening Denmark who sacrificed 44 men to help the US in it's absolute shit show of a mission in Afghanistan, but what can you expect from MAGA, you're a few years from turning into Russia, you've already got your supreme leader and your brownshirts, just gotta burn down the Reichstag and you'll be fully there

Look, Afghanistan was a mistake. It turns oit you can't civilise goat herders over there.

And yes, the US should be more cogniscent of the sacrifices her allies made for her and Afghanistan.

But the US also lost more soldiers overall.

And, most allies in ISAF did fail to properly help. Germany and France in particular, even when given the safer parts to secure. Only, and I hope I haven't missed some; Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Georgia, The Netherlands, Norway(ish), the UK(ish), carried their weight.

Even then, the US' closest ally, the UK, so utterly fucked up in Helmand Province that not only did the US Marines have to clean the mess up, the pro-West Afghans didn't fucking want the Brits there anymore.

 

[Forsete]

As great as Europe is, and as much as the peace they (we, I guess) promote is great...

The two largest wars by a long shot humanity has ever fought were centred in Europe and because of European rivalries. This is especially true for WW1, but really WW2 was just an extension of WW1 anyway.

And now the beast has awoken once again.

Edited just for Tams.

 

[Tams]

And now the beast has awoken once again.

Sadly, the UK goverment has made that verboten.

 

[calico]

As great as Europe is, and as much as the peace they (we, I guess) promote is great...

The two largest wars by a long shot humanity has ever fought were centred in Europe and because of European rivalries. This is especially true for WW1, but really WW2 was just an extension of WW1 anyway.

Yes, and you can go back a lot further than that.

It took fighting each other to exhaustion and then effectively being vassalized by a far stronger power to put a stop to it. The idea that the EU has been meaningfully responsible for this change is laughable, as is the fantasy that the EU would maintain this status quo if the US withdrew any time soon.

These 'great national sacrifices' made by European countries over two decades following 9/11 would be eclipsed in like one hour of fighting in these proper existential threat wars between militarily comparable opponents. They were personal sacrifices, but talking about them in terms of 'national sacrifice' is absurd.

 

[Forsete]

Yes, and you can go back a lot further than that.

It took fighting each other to exhaustion and then effectively being vassalized by a far stronger power to put a stop to it. The idea that the EU has been meaningfully responsible for this change is laughable, as is the fantasy that the EU would maintain this status quo if the US withdrew any time soon.

These 'great national sacrifices' made by European countries over two decades following 9/11 would be eclipsed in like one hour of fighting in these proper existential threat wars between militarily comparable opponents. They were personal sacrifices, but talking about them in terms of 'national sacrifice' is absurd.

You really have a grandeur image of yourself, don't you?

 

[BlackTron]

>attacking Trump while glazing Mark fucking Carney, president of a country that's literally in total collapse

Good lord.

Destroying the rules-based international order that brought prosperity to America? No big deal, don't be so dramatic. Now Canada, there is a mess for you!

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

Look, Afghanistan was a mistake. It turns oit you can't civilise goat herders over there.

And yes, the US should be more cogniscent of the sacrifices her allies made for her and Afghanistan.

But the US also lost more soldiers overall.

And, most allies in ISAF did fail to properly help. Germany and France in particular, even when given the safer parts to secure. Only, and I hope I haven't missed some; Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Georgia, The Netherlands, Norway(ish), the UK(ish), carried their weight.

Even then, the US' closest ally, the UK, so utterly fucked up in Helmand Province that not only did the US Marines have to clean the mess up, the pro-West Afghans didn't fucking want the Brits there anymore.

UK military tried to tell the civilian leadership they weren't be giving enough resources, men etc.

A problem in British society and government is everyone is too polite to the extent we literally try to say bad things in polite ways.

I shit you not. Instead of telling tony Blair (biggest cunt in the world) we simply can't deploy with these numbers or gear. It would have been it's going to be extremely difficult. Of course Blair told them to make do and manage with what we give, We can't spare any more money etc.

The military wasn't the issue. Piece of shit government sent them to the worse province to fight without the numbers or the tools.

Anyway some of you will defend trump no matter what he says or does. We've got one poster talking about hypothetical scenarios of Europeans fighting existential threat level wars as they don't know what real casualties are...

Anything to justify backing his latest ramblings. USA didn't need anyone's help for Afghanistan, but they asked for it and got it. Some half-assed it, some didn't. Doesn't change the fact that many non US troops died for a pointless war. Trumps wrong on this on; he's not infallible.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

USA didn't need anyone's help for Afghanistan, but they asked for it and got it

USA did not even invoke the article 5 themselves. UK (with Tony Blair and co) was itching to be involved. Humanitarian intervention guy.

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

USA did not even invoke the article 5 themselves. UK (with Tony Blair and co) was itching to be involved. Humanitarian intervention guy.

Another reason to hate the cunt. Begging to help then sending crumbs.

I hope to god one day someone in UK politics has this man in chains and on trial for his lies.

 

[Meicyn]

Every time I see Tony Blair mentioned, I can't help but think of this timeless skit.

 

[Meicyn]

Double post, but updated National Defense Strategy just dropped. You know, if you're a giant dork like me and actually read these.

https://media.defense.gov/2026/Jan/23/2003864773/-1/-1/0/2026-NATIONAL-DEFENSE-STRATEGY.PDF

 

[MisterFalcon]

Shouldn't that be the NATIONAL WAR STRATEGY now that we have (on paper at least) a Department and Secretary of War?

 

[Big-G]

What an Evil Regime, unimaginable terror. I hope all the people responsible for this get what's coming to them in the end.

 

[Tams]

UK military tried to tell the civilian leadership they weren't be giving enough resources, men etc.

A problem in British society and government is everyone is too polite to the extent we literally try to say bad things in polite ways.

I shit you not. Instead of telling tony Blair (biggest cunt in the world) we simply can't deploy with these numbers or gear. It would have been it's going to be extremely difficult. Of course Blair told them to make do and manage with what we give, We can't spare any more money etc.

The military wasn't the issue. Piece of shit government sent them to the worse province to fight without the numbers or the tools.

Anyway some of you will defend trump no matter what he says or does. We've got one poster talking about hypothetical scenarios of Europeans fighting existential threat level wars as they don't know what real casualties are...

Anything to justify backing his latest ramblings. USA didn't need anyone's help for Afghanistan, but they asked for it and got it. Some half-assed it, some didn't. Doesn't change the fact that many non US troops died for a pointless war. Trumps wrong on this on; he's not infallible.

Just cease with the ad hominem comments. You are very quick to label people here and it doesn't aid the discussion here about Iran.

Like it or lump it, Trump needs to be negotiated around if the 'International Order' is to remain as it is, and if people like the Iranians are going to get any help.

Just as countries like the UK were ultimately mostly useless in Afghanistan, those same countries have been mostly useless regarding Iran.

The UK has 10 surface combat ships ready to go. A mere 10. Regarding Iran, all we can seem to offer is a few fighter jets to intercept some missiles.

I hope you can see why the US are pissed off.

 

[BlackTron]

The implication appears to be that the US always has to pick up the slack of its NATO allies, so who needs them, we put in more than we get.

This is a symptom of only counting tangibles like troops or cash, without an appreciation for the soft power that benefits the US and saves it ungodly amount of resources from achieving the same thing conventionally.

But it's too late, people who keep trying to defend our asinine moves don't realize that we already pissed on what their grandparents fought to achieve. The denial stage of grief.

 

[RJMacready73]

>attacking Trump while glazing Mark fucking Carney, president of a country that's literally in total collapse

Good lord.

I'm comparing the stark differences in their abilities to speak like a human being with an above average iq, trump speaks like a moron,a literal idiot old man yelling at the wind blaming everyone and everything and taking credit for the rest, he's a child in an orange skin suit, an insufferable prick and his speech in Davos in room full of actual adults was laughably embarrassing... Now compare it to how Mark Carney spoke or hell anyone else for that matter.. how the fuck can Americans not see this, how are the press not pulling him apart everytime he opens his mouth?? 3 more years.... Jesus wept and knowing how fucking awful you lot are getting, you'll elect someone even worse...

 

[BlackTron]

I'm comparing the stark differences in their abilities to speak like a human being with an above average iq, trump speaks like a moron,a literal idiot old man yelling at the wind blaming everyone and everything and taking credit for the rest, he's a child in an orange skin suit, an insufferable prick and his speech in Davos in room full of actual adults was laughably embarrassing... Now compare it to how Mark Carney spoke or hell anyone else for that matter.. how the fuck can Americans not see this, how are the press not pulling him apart everytime he opens his mouth?? 3 more years.... Jesus wept and knowing how fucking awful you lot are getting, you'll elect someone even worse...

A litmus test for self-awareness. Apparently, close to 50% of Americans don't have it and are purely emotionally driven creatures who will twist anything to keep their ego from taking a hit. Nice priorities. Basically, we're a bunch of average German citizens in 1935 who made excuses and looked the other way.

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

Just cease with the ad hominem comments. You are very quick to label people here and it doesn't aid the discussion here about Iran.

Like it or lump it, Trump needs to be negotiated around if the 'International Order' is to remain as it is, and if people like the Iranians are going to get any help.

Just as countries like the UK were ultimately mostly useless in Afghanistan, those same countries have been mostly useless regarding Iran.

The UK has 10 surface combat ships ready to go. A mere 10. Regarding Iran, all we can seem to offer is a few fighter jets to intercept some missiles.

I hope you can see why the US are pissed off.

Who are you talking to?.
I quoted you to discuss how and why the UK failed in Afghanistan

The second half of my post was directed at the posters defending trump for shitting on dead soldiers from Europe.

Where are these ad hominems?

 

[EviLore]

Still waiting patiently for USS Rules Based International Order to arrive

 

[ADiTAR]

Still waiting patiently for USS Rules Based International Order to arrive

 

[calico]

Doesn't change the fact that many non US troops died

If you mean 'many' in the 'more than one' sense, sure.

In the context of fighting a war, a handful of casualties per year is not 'many' from a national perspective. Germany probably lost 10x as many people to bee stings as it lost fighting in Afghanistan. I cannot imagine trying to tell the veterans of the -very much not hypothetical- wars which plagued Europe before Pax Americana that a few dozen or even a few hundred casualties over 20 years is now considered many. At a personal level the sacrifice is the same ofc.

As a broad assessment of NATO's enthusiasm in Afghanistan, President Trump's comments are accurate unfortunately. The attitude from many members -at a national level- was 'what is the bare minimum we can get away with here?' I do not believe President Trump's comments were meant as an indictment of the soldiers on an individual level, but of the lack of willingness of most NATO members to contribute beyond merely being present to being active. I consider this a fair observation, and his inference that the US cannot really rely upon NATO to be there if the US needed it to be correct. This conclusion will necessarily inform his policy elsewhere.

The price of admission for the bulk of Europe living under the security provided by the US since WW2 has been incredibly low. Surely the greatest deal in history when it comes to security enjoyed for the contribution required.