Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
As an old school Sega fanboy in my head canon Sony killed Sega and id quit gaming before owning a Playstation.
My analysis of Saturn's failure
- Thread starter Geometric-Crusher
- Start date
nush
Member
Crayon
Member
Played more touring car. I don't know how much more time I can give this. Might go back again.
After sleeping on it, I was handling the controls a little better. Between sessions, I realized that I wasn't sure if this was an am2 or am3 game. Just had never given the game that much thought. Felt more like am3 and sure enough a sear reveals so.
Daytona's handling was wildly different than virtua racing. Then am3 came in with sega rally and did something at least as different than that.
That's great because there are only so many ways to interpret how a 4-wheeled car is going to handle in a game. Touring Car kind of hurts because it's trying to do it's own thing with the handling concept and I think it's actually a good direction. But fuck I really think that is the only thing it has going for it at all. And even that is spoiled by the shite control. Which ironically, only gets more shite the better I get at it. The tracks aren't even very good.
I described my idea of a different approach to a port recently and how this game would be a good candidate. This could have been spun off and remixed into a really different and better game. Talk about a pipe dream.
Anyway I was just made aware of an interesting racing game that was already on my shelf so i'm going to try that. Maybe a palette cleanser, maybe a comparison. Idk. Just something else. Hopefully better. It's called king the spirits (i guess aka "touge"?).
Before seeing that post in the other saturn 3d-graphics thread, I was actually going to put in daytona ce because I have not played that in a very long time. I know I preferred the original, and I would say because I think it's more accurate, but I have no memory of the actual feel so would be fun to refresh that memory.
After sleeping on it, I was handling the controls a little better. Between sessions, I realized that I wasn't sure if this was an am2 or am3 game. Just had never given the game that much thought. Felt more like am3 and sure enough a sear reveals so.
Daytona's handling was wildly different than virtua racing. Then am3 came in with sega rally and did something at least as different than that.
That's great because there are only so many ways to interpret how a 4-wheeled car is going to handle in a game. Touring Car kind of hurts because it's trying to do it's own thing with the handling concept and I think it's actually a good direction. But fuck I really think that is the only thing it has going for it at all. And even that is spoiled by the shite control. Which ironically, only gets more shite the better I get at it. The tracks aren't even very good.
I described my idea of a different approach to a port recently and how this game would be a good candidate. This could have been spun off and remixed into a really different and better game. Talk about a pipe dream.
Anyway I was just made aware of an interesting racing game that was already on my shelf so i'm going to try that. Maybe a palette cleanser, maybe a comparison. Idk. Just something else. Hopefully better. It's called king the spirits (i guess aka "touge"?).
Before seeing that post in the other saturn 3d-graphics thread, I was actually going to put in daytona ce because I have not played that in a very long time. I know I preferred the original, and I would say because I think it's more accurate, but I have no memory of the actual feel so would be fun to refresh that memory.
Crayon
Member
Omg this game is soooooo much better lol.
There's a learning curve here, but the controls are consistent and as soon as I started to get the idea after 10 or 15 minutes I started getting hooked. I'm trying to figure out the drifting but the interesting thing is that it doesn't seem like the game necessarily wants me to do - it and slow-in-fast-out works naturally, too.
I've seen the cpu do long drifts and I've found there is more than one way to start that happening. Just starting to figure that out, but it seems once learned, you can decide what kind of entry you want to use for a given turn, and the tracks are twisty enough that you have to take a turn in the context of the previous and next turns.
Now this is a properly working game. Can't wait to see how the second one improves it!!! I'd just keep playing but this is going to wreck my day lol. I need to go outside.
There's a learning curve here, but the controls are consistent and as soon as I started to get the idea after 10 or 15 minutes I started getting hooked. I'm trying to figure out the drifting but the interesting thing is that it doesn't seem like the game necessarily wants me to do - it and slow-in-fast-out works naturally, too.
I've seen the cpu do long drifts and I've found there is more than one way to start that happening. Just starting to figure that out, but it seems once learned, you can decide what kind of entry you want to use for a given turn, and the tracks are twisty enough that you have to take a turn in the context of the previous and next turns.
Now this is a properly working game. Can't wait to see how the second one improves it!!! I'd just keep playing but this is going to wreck my day lol. I need to go outside.
Last edited:
Team Andromeda
Member
Who are you.. Nick Clegg? because he said used almost the exact terminology to mock people who wanted to leave the EU or were for Scottish impendence. Only for Clegg to bang on about Brexit to this day and cry like baby ever since the vote; Very much like you, who claims not to worry about what happened years ago, only to pop in every thread like this.
Very nice to meet you Nick...
You apparently liked bowling it Tekken Tag and I don't like fighting games based on what mini games they offer or shadows they offer...
Next, you'll be telling us Tekken 5 is the best thanks to Star Blade *rollseyes*
Last edited:
Team Andromeda
Member
And reason for that is very simple the late great Tomonobu Itagaki told Official OG X-Box UK mag that in his view, the Saturn was the definitive version of the game and how he put his heart and soul in to that version and how it remained his fav version of DOA. Itagaki-san also said much the same in a Kikizo interview.
Speaking of the Ninja master and interviews, here's one of his last when he talks about how easier the Saturn port of the game was and how the PS version had issues with motion data
Last edited:
Team Andromeda
Member
Very silly that... If you want to say the only console that was was around in 1997 was the Saturn and how you were oblivious to other consoles, then its Pal output would be the best, since it's going up against nothing other than your PC.
Again, silly that. It's like saying who needs KOF 96 when one had KOF 95 or why the need for rally cars and tracks in GT 2 when you already had rally games
Plenty of people buy classic conversions of games mate, I would imagine the Nintendo crew are buying Mario collection yet again for the Switch 2, a thing that been going since Mario Collection on the Snes. I liked Bug Too, shame about its ridiculous difficulty level mind, but will agree with on Touring Car, it was a letdown and not good enough.
I agree, which it why I call out Bernie and his stupid plan and speech, but Nintendo did just the same with N64 even down to moving N64 projects up to the Cube
and Microsoft with the Xbox where both systems were dropped with them moving on the new systems. Both those systems had much better 3rd party support mind to make up for the shortfall.
Fine and I could say the same when people like your chum
RetroGaming who bring up games like Tomb Raider, F1, GTA, Quake 2 and all that. One could just say I couldn't carless about Colin McRae, F1, TOCCA, FF7, MGS , Quake 2 Ect,ect on the PS1. I'll play them on the PC and with the PC, have by far the best version of Quake 1 and 2 the Tomb Raiders and also the best F1 game ever made with Geoff's F1 GP2 and a better port of F1 97 with more features...
RetroGamingUK
Member
Fine and I could say the same when people like your chum
One could say I couldn't care less about Virtua Fighter, Virtua Fighter 2, Daytona USA, Sega Rally, Last Bronx etc on Saturn, I'll play them on PC.
Some came out on PC a bit later, but then so did MGS and FFVII from your list.
And why do you bother with Xbox Series X when those games release day and date on PC and are always better on there.
It's one rule for PlayStation and another rule for Sega and Xbox with you.
Last edited:
Team Andromeda
Member
Hence like I've always said I never got why PlayStation fans get so upset with SONY brining their PS5 games over to the PC and like I pointed out to some of your PlayStation fans in various threads on the issue. It's not even that new, we've had a few SONY PlayStation Pal games make the jump to PC back in the day like for F1, G- Police and I've made that point too.
Hell SEGA was doing it even in the Mega Drive days on Win 95, They're difference users and a diehard PC fan isn't to become console fan, anymore that most die-hard console fans will become a PC fan. And before I get the hordes of fans saying I made the switch, I did too when moving to consoles from my microcomputers that was the ZX Spec and Atari ST, since then, it's always been about consoles and where I couldn't careless if a so called console exclusive game made the jump to PC, more of an issue was when you saw a console game make the jump to a rival console - like it hurt me at the time, seeing Grandia coming out on the PS1, even though at least that meant I was able to pay it in English, which was the only comfort...
Last edited:
cireza
Member
And while we are it, here is Mikami saying the PS2 was way more difficult to work on than the Saturn. And that the Dreamcast was very easy.And reason for that is very simple the late great Tomonobu Itagaki told Official OG X-Box UK mag that in his view, the Saturn was the definitive version of the game and how he put his heart and soul in to that version and how it remained his fav version of DOA. Itagaki-san also said much the same in a Kikizo interview.
Speaking of the Ninja master and interviews, here's one of his last when he talks about how easier the Saturn port of the game was and how the PS version had issues with motion data
A Year Ago: PlayStation2 - After the dust settles
First published: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:38:02 GMT
www.zdnet.com
Basically the PS2 lacked the tools and libraries, and many developers complained (Namco, Konami, Square...). It was worse than the Saturn experience. But as it was the Playstation 2, the market share was already secured anyway, so Sony went away with it as people were dumb enough to rush and buy the console even without any decent game at launch.
In the end, this console gets the "shittiest hardware ever" award from me.
Last edited:
Team Andromeda
Member
And while we are it, here is Mikami saying the PS2 was way more difficult to work on than the Saturn. And that the Dreamcast was very easy.
A Year Ago: PlayStation2 - After the dust settles
First published: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:38:02 GMT
Basically the PS2 lacked the tools and libraries, and many developers complained (Namco, Konami, Square...). It was worse than the Saturn experience. But as it was the Playstation 2, the market share was already secured anyway, so Sony went away with it as people were dumb enough to rush and buy the console even without any decent game at launch.
In the end, this console gets the "shittiest hardware ever" award from me.
Like I say the double standards from the PS2 fans is here for all to see.
And we crap about RE2 not possible on Saturn due to memory, but Saturn had no issues with DOA, unlike PS1
Parazels
Member
I'm not Shinji Mikami,And while we are it, here is Mikami saying the PS2 was way more difficult to work on than the Saturn. And that the Dreamcast was very easy.
A Year Ago: PlayStation2 - After the dust settles
First published: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:38:02 GMT
Basically the PS2 lacked the tools and libraries, and many developers complained (Namco, Konami, Square...). It was worse than the Saturn experience. But as it was the Playstation 2, the market share was already secured anyway, so Sony went away with it as people were dumb enough to rush and buy the console even without any decent game at launch.
In the end, this console gets the "shittiest hardware ever" award from me.
but didn't some of these developers make 2d games on the Sega Saturn which were certainly less difficult to make than 3d games for the PS2?
Avid Reading Horse
Member
Only
Hiroo Onoda - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
3rd world Sega fans be like:
You can't seriously be talking about 16-bit sales post 1996 sheeeeeeeit, come out of the jungle already brothers!
cireza
offering a reaction point4 reaction points already.
Ai-aight, I see how it is. I'm about to switch to team Sega for real! I just gotta figure out which shitty overrated Saturn game to turn into my new avatar!
cireza
Member
Bro, Itagaki (may he rest in peace) and Mikami made Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden and Resident Evil respectively. Dead or Alive was maybe the most impressive 3D fighter on Saturn, being high res, 60fps, with super smooth animation and even explosions that could occur on the danger zones. Resident Evil was ported to Saturn by a another team and ended being a very good port, and we all know how visionary this game was back then.
Then these two guys went on and made some of the most impressive games on Dreamcast. Dead or Alive 2 was simply unbelievable back then, super smooth, incredible visuals, huge stages with layers, and no loading times ! Itagaki and his team were absolute wizards. And they continued to prove this with DoA3, 4 and Ninja Gaiden 1 and 2. Ninja Gaiden 2 was heavily influential for the modern Action-BTA genre.
Mikami made Code Veronica which was an absolute slap in the face and the move to full 3D for Resident Evil. It was incredible back then. This guy would move on and make Resident Evil 4, which is pretty much the template for all modern "over the shoulder" third person action games. A legendary title released on Gamecube.
They made some of the most impressive and influential games in their respective genres, on top of being technically masterpieces for their time.
So basically, when Itagaki and Mikami say something, "you shut up and you listen". Because these guys know their shit.
Last edited:
Parazels
Member
1) Wasn't Saturn's architecture particularly well-suited for 3D fighting games?
2) What's so demanding about RE1 anyway? Prerendered backgrounds and a few low-poly characters at 30 fps?
cireza
Member
You are cherry-picking two things in my entire explanation ?
The fact that the Saturn was well made for fighters doesn't mean that Dead or Alive is not a fantastic achievement on the console.
Nothing is particularly demanding about RE1, but the game concept itself was visionary. And then, Code Veronica was technically very impressive and Resident Evil 4 even more as well as pushing the vision even further.
nkarafo
Member
Nothing. RE1 wasn't that impressive. It was mostly the atmosphere and art direction that made it stand out.
I remember the first time i played the RE2 demo, i was not expecting such a big improvement in visuals. Both the backgrounds and 3D models looked way better than RE1.
Team Andromeda
Member
Well, if you listen to some the Saturn couldn't handled any 3D.
I don't think they was anything that taxing in RE, RE 2 was a different story mind with a big increased in the number of enemies on screen at one time, which looked like Capcom was having an issue with on the Saturn RE2. At worst the Saturn version would have cutbacks, but even Capcom said it wasn't impossible or that they didn't need more RAM.
The main issue was Saturn's poor marketshare in Japan in 98 and SEGA moving all its resources to Dreamcast and so Capcom said it was dropped to 'Dreamcast'. Which it was, because in the New Challenge conference Capcom and SEGA were on stage together talking of a new exclusive RE game (Code Veronica) and announcing RE 2 for Dreamcast
So its was clear, SEGA wanted RE2 on the Dreamcast and not Saturn
nkarafo
Member
Nobody said that.
Saying it can't handle 3D as well as the PS1/N64 do doesn't mean it can't handle it at a decent enough level to be somewhat comparable.
Otherwise we wouldn't have this conversation.
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
this is another argument against Saturn.
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
I said it. And I repeat, running games at 10-15 with no lighting, no shadows, poor textures, no alpha effects, that's not running a game.
3D games where the camera is behind the character, the console was not made for that, sure it runs some tech demos and tries to run Tomb Raider, that's it. looking back the Sega Saturn was not suitable to participate in the 1995-2000 gen, it would have done better if it had competed against the 3DO
Last edited:
cireza
Member
And then we started playing Exhumed, that had everything listed on top of running at 30fps, and the entire argument fell flat.
RetroGamingUK
Member
And then you start playing Exhumed that has to compensate by rendering weapons and enemies with blocky sprites.
How does Quake run by comparison?
I have provided examples of fully 3D FPS games running on PS1 with no frame rate issues like those encountered on Saturn Quake.
Lobotomy, held up as the shining example of Saturn developers, just couldn't do it
In Exhumed this enemy would be a 2D sprite and thus no frame rate issues, but here VDP1 is simply being pushed too far in terms of geometry and fill-rate.
Last edited:
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
Saturn's fill rate was its Achilles heel
that's what prevented the console from participating in the PS1/N64 generation if you note the devs quickly ran out of ideas on how to make games in the same hierarchy as those seen on the most powerful consoles, fighting games with bitmap backgrounds were already saturated, I imagine Sega's genius in making Sega Rally at 30fps using the weak vdp1, this is not easy without clever art design. They fought with the hardware as much as they could, this is different from the PlayStation 2 because the PS2 really had power under the hood, Ridge Racer 5 was not the limit, Burnout 3 and GT4 came out, PS2 had Black etc.
that's what prevented the console from participating in the PS1/N64 generation if you note the devs quickly ran out of ideas on how to make games in the same hierarchy as those seen on the most powerful consoles, fighting games with bitmap backgrounds were already saturated, I imagine Sega's genius in making Sega Rally at 30fps using the weak vdp1, this is not easy without clever art design. They fought with the hardware as much as they could, this is different from the PlayStation 2 because the PS2 really had power under the hood, Ridge Racer 5 was not the limit, Burnout 3 and GT4 came out, PS2 had Black etc.
Team Andromeda
Member
People like to make that out. PS1 is harder but there's a few times the Saturn did 3D better than N64 or at least a 3D game that looked more impressive IMO
And you enter PlayStation fanboy mode
I've provided you examples of Saturn FPS shooters with polygon enemies and run at a decent frame rate like Gundam Gaiden II, Mech Warrior 2
and yet you always look to bring up Quake, knowing full well it wasn't a title built from the ground up on the Saturn (so that never helped) and even if you had a Pentium 90 PC, it run pretty crap on that at the time.
We can all troll see mate.. Tell us on your wonderful PS2, how many FPS had the lighting equal to that of Riddick and Doom 3 on the OG Xbox? since you're such a huge fan of lighting in FPS's with polygons *rollseyes*.
Last edited:
RetroGamingUK
Member
You're resorting to name calling and shoehorning PS2/Xbox because you've lost the argument and you know it.
How many quads/polygons do you think your examples are rendering compared to the likes of Quake and Tomb Raider? Those are not like for like comparisons and you know it.
How about all those smooth running, geometric complex, nicely lit 1997 PS1 racing games I posted a couple of pages back, yourself,
cireza
and
Alexios
have failed to provide evidence of Saturn coming close to those because it simply doesn't exist.As for PS2 vs Xbox, I made a thread about the original Xbox's lack of success, why not discuss it there instead. Apart from a couple of Konami games Xbox absolutely pisses all over PS2 from a great height in terms of power. Why is it being discussed here though?
Last edited:
Team Andromeda
Member
Calling you exactly what you are isn't name calling and your drivel at the bottom of your reply, shows you for exactly what you are.. I see you're also doing your party trick of moving the goal posts, so now it's about how many polygons are being rendered? Give me a break...You're resorting to name calling and shoehorning PS2/Xbox because you've lost the argument and you know it.
How many quads/polygons do you think your examples are rendering compared to the likes of Quake and Tomb Raider? Those are not like for like comparisons and you know it.
How about all those smooth running, geometric complex, nicely lit 1997 PS1 racing games I posted a couple of pages back, yourself,
As for PS2 vs Xbox, I made a thread about the original Xbox's lack of success, why not discuss it there instead. Apart from a couple of Konami games Xbox absolutely pisses all over PS2 from a great height in terms of power. Why is it being discussed here though?
I also take it you can't think of any PS2 game with the lighting to that of Riddick or Doom 3 on the OG Xbox. I'm amazed you're not more a fan of the Xbox TBH, since it's got FPS shooters with amazing lighting, had the best looking and sounding multiplatform games, even had the best looking and sounding version of Pro Evo Soccer 4, which was also the 1st time the console version of Pro went online too unlike the poor PS2 version, don;t tell us the Xbox pad was sh8t and that's why you rather the PS2 versions
Last edited:
RetroGamingUK
Member
I'm not moving goal posts, just proving that Saturn's inferior geometry rendering held it back from when it came to diverse 3D games unlike PS1.
As for PS2, why are you projecting? That thing was popular due to brand, DVD, a big library.
I just said that Xbox pisses all over PS2 in terms of power. I'll say it again, PS2 is wank compared to Xbox for 3D rendering. Why are you ignoring this? I can't think of any PS2 game that looks that good because I never claimed that there were any. Why are you projecting that I've said PS2 is better…
Seriously, has a single person claimed PS2 was more powerful than Xbox here?
Last edited:
cireza
Member
Exhumed didn't have to compensate anything. It was made this way from the get go. It's not like Saturn lost polygonal characters or whatever nonsense you are implying. And believe it or not, sprites are also rendered by VDP1. It's not like they become magically free to display. Yet the game runs superbly, with lighting, good textures, a true 3D engine, maybe transparencies (can't remember) which demonstrates that the argument I was responding too was pure nonsense.
Of course. Games released years later, as usual. As if the PS1 was going to get better in the genre, but not the Saturn. Which makes little sense when we see that the console was actually ahead during the time frame both consoles were active simultaneously. Quake was a very ambitious port at an, overall, pretty early date. No doubt it would have been smoother had it released in 1998 instead. But the thing is that we had moved to Dreamcast. The port was so ambitious that nobody attempted it on PS1 at the time, which tells everything we have to know about how the Saturn was capable of this in 1997, but not the PS1. At least, not to any degree a developer would take the risk of trying it.
This is like COTA. Released super early on Saturn despite the gigantic sprites and gigantic fully animated backgrounds, but never managed to make it to PS1 in a decent state.
Last edited:
RetroGamingUK
Member
The example I produced was Tenka (below) it released several months before Quake on Saturn. Not "years later" as you keep claiming. It's a fully 3D geometric complex FPS that, unlike Quake Saturn, runs smoothly throughout.
As for Dreamcast , you'd moved on because Sega gave you no choice, they abandoned the Saturn only a few years after launch.
I've seen it all now. This is a thread about why Saturn failed against PlayStation. Yet you deflect once you've lost the argument to "What about Dreamcast", "What about PS2", "What about Xbox".
Team Andromeda
Member
You're always moving the goal posts when you get caught out like when you asked name you a 3D fighter with 3D polygons for background in a Saturn, so sure they weren't one on the Saturn, like you ask for a 3D polygon FPS on the Saturn other than Quake, so sure there wasn't one and don't come it on power, I said the PS1 was better at 3D
I don't look to poor hate on the PS2 for stuff you lot produce hate on the Saturn in terms of 3D power, best multi-platform games, launch like up, sports games at launch, cost, ease of programming and all the other bullshit to knock the Saturn with, yet for PS2 it didn't matter..
cireza
Member
Not exactly amazing and largely corridor based. This falls in the expectations we could have at this time, certainly doesn't outclass what we had on Saturn.
And anyway, we all know that the PS1 was more capable at full 3D games than the Saturn, so nobody cares about your example.
The point was about, reminder :
Which was proven wrong.
You moving the goalposts (as usual) by comparing to PS1 is irrelevant to the point.
Last edited:
RetroGamingUK
Member
The likes of EA and Codemasters looked at Dreamcast and thought "no one's gonna buy it, let's not bother"
Then they looked at PS2 and thought "this is a pain to develop for, better roll our sleeves up because everyone with a PS1 is gonna buy it".
PS2 was worth the effort for them, Saturn wasn't.
cireza
Member
PS2 was worth the effort from a business perspective, doesn't make the hardware less shit.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Don't put
Geometric-Crusher
's words in my mouth, we're not making the same arguments.PS1 comparison is important, it's a huge part of why Saturn failed.
Last edited:
Parazels
Member
Wasn't the PS2 hardware complicated, but at least free of bottlenecks?
Last edited:
nkarafo
Member
Interested to know what those games are.
To be fair, Tenka isn't exactly on par with Quake in terms of level design. Quake has far more complex looking rooms, even the slightly modified ones of the Saturn version.
Tenka is mostly small simple corridors and boxy rooms without much complexity.
Last edited:
cireza
Member
When your hardware is so convoluted that barely any developer manages to use it correctly, which bottleneck it has is the least of the problems.
In any case, the console had evident issues with its picture quality, poor textures and aliasing.
Last edited:
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Mario Bros. may've been based on an arcade game and had strong arcade game design influences, but Nintendo added a TON of content and structure to the game to leverage it being a home release. Games like Panzer Dragoon were already more limited than some of the 2D platformers gens prior due to fixed scroll speeds and being a rail shooter, but SEGA also lacked the foresight to remember this was a game for home consoles. There was very little in the way of content for Panzer Dragoon; with an aesthetic like the one it had, they could've leaned into RPG elements much earlier than Saga. There could've been a more robust Story Mode and means of upgrading the dragoon, or selecting from different dragoon types that influenced playstyle and even what alternate levels you could've accessed.
That type of stuff was not a big ask in 1995, even for 3D games, but SEGA didn't have the foresight. Team Andromeda were a new studio at the time so I understand that factor, but had SEGA been more considerate they could've supplemented development with another studio to build out content for the game. Also you can't really single out Jumping Flash as something indicative of most of the PlayStation's early exclusives, when they had games like King's Field around also which were both substantive in content and innovative in their application of RPG action in 3D spaces. Or titles like Crime Crackers for that matter.
Games like Resident Evil, I'd argue are actually very arcade-like in design ideology, since they're designed in a way you can master their mechanics to get very short playtimes if you know what you are doing. At that point, the story can be optional. However, they did a great job of interweaving atmosphere, story, and substantive content into a cohesive experience that felt more cinematic for the time. They did what games like Panzer Dragoon could've and should've done prior, considering Panzer Dragoon itself has a very artistic/cinematic flair to its atmosphere.
You focus way too much on the day 1 lineup.
PS2 sold in droves due to the below.
People expected plenty of games of this calibre based on their experience from PS1, and their purchase was validated in little under a year.
TBF, in 2000, no PS2 did not sell primarily due to these games. In Japan most early adopters were in for DVD, and in the US & Europe it was a mix of that and the early software. Tho I'm sure many knew these games were coming due to magazines and press coverage leading up to their launch, for sure.
After these games released tho, yeah it was a wrap for everybody else that gen in terms of gunning for the #1 spot. Dreamcast died before these games actually released tho, so it's a bit hard to say if these specific games caused its death.
Quick look at what we got in PAL land from SEGA this "meh-ish" year lol :
Forgot Three Dirty Dwarves !
And this is not really extending to all the published games (Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Bomberman, Jurassic Park etc...), and not even talking about the awesome third party games that were released this year (Hexen, Marvel Super Heroes, Wipeout 2097, Resident Evil, KOF95, Pandemonium, Worms...)
In the real world, 1997 was loaded with awesome games and it was impossible to keep up.
Anybody unhappy with 1997 on Saturn either hates video-games, or is pushing a narrative.
Eh, no not really. The problem with your list is it doesn't account for the games PlayStation had on store shelves during the exact same time frame. If the Saturn games you show here were up to helping the system stand out and do well on the market, then 1997 wouldn't have been remembered as something of a disaster in the West. Bernie Stolar's comments after that year's E3 wouldn't have caused such a massive fallout of 3P support for Saturn into the second half of that year and through all of '98 and '99.
This isn't even me saying the Saturn games are bad. Shining the Holy Arc, Virtual On, Enemy Zero...they are legit great games. As are many of the others. But nothing about them stood out to appeal to the masses over what PlayStation and Nintendo were offering in the exact same time frame. Who needed Sonic 3D Blast (a quick port because of Sonic Xtreme getting cancelled) and Sonic Jam (a collection of old MegaDrive games with a very small 3D bonus area) when you had Crash Bandicoot 2? Who needed Sonic R or gave a shit about it, when you had Diddy Kong Racing? Do you see where I'm getting at here?
Yes in hindsight that type of thing doesn't matter, but at the time, it was absolutely important and SEGA didn't have offerings that were strong enough or stood out enough, to take the spotlight away from games like Crash Bandicoot 2, Diddy Kong Racing, GoldenEye 007, Final Fantasy VII, Bloody Roar, Gran Turismo etc. That combined with poor marketing, were the Saturn's biggest problems during the gen in the West.
Even in Japan, sales basically collapsed in 1997 so many of the same problems I mentioned above for US & Europe apply to Japan as well.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Last edited:
nkarafo
Member
Geometric-Crusher
Where's the funny in my last post? You don't think Quake looks more complex/demanding than Tenka?
NeverYouMind
Member
I was just saying the value of mission mode in Soul Calibur on Dreamcast is very low. It is good for one playthrough due to its lack of quality but even then it overstays its welcome since it must be grinded to gain access to the characters and stages of the game. A decent minigame like Tekken Bowl has more replay value. Also, I played more Tekken 3 (ARC) on Tekken 5 disc than anything else. Tekken 5 has a lot of issues.
P.S. While the Saturn was not 3D oriented I am willing to bet it could run fixed camera games with prerendered backgrounds a lot better than N64 and on par with PS1 if the effort was made to port titles to its hardware.
Last edited:
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Where's the funny in my last post? You don't think Quake looks more complex/demanding than Tenka?
Do not worry about him he takes any good statement someone has about the Saturn as if they are saying "the playstation sucks tremendous donkey balls!!". He cannot be rationed with.
Last edited:
Team Andromeda
Member
Sounded like you never even played the mission mode in SC on the DC, but if want people want to talk about the lack of depth of VF on the Saturn compared to the depth of Tekken on the PS1 for early Vs fighters, then all I was doing was the same for the DC and PS2 early Vs fighters. I couldn't careless myself and play a fighter for the fighting, not the extras or mini games
X-men: COTA is to this day my fav fighting game, even if the home version was basic port in terms of content.
It was based on an Arcade game, not that it matters. Overlooking Panzer Dragoon wasn't, I couldn't careless if PD was using SEGA's Arcade routes as the game was fabulous and don't give us the shit over a story mode. Panzer got more of a Story than most of the Mario games, what was the story for Mario 64... I've baked a cake *rollseyes*. It didn't matter when the gameplay in both was so good.
I'll argue more like Alone In the Dark on the PC & 3DO. By 1996 lots of the corps were starting to add depth to their CD titles and not just using the CD for a FMV intro and CD-DA music (insert a PD joke if you must)
Sport games and Vs fighting games ... I can't think of track and field based N64 game with better 3D graphics than Decathlete or Winter Heat, for Vs fighters in a complete non contest!.
While I liked the graphics in All Star for me the graphics in WSB 98 were more impressive and while the game is overrated, I found WWS 98 graphics to be better than ISS 64.
I loved my N64 but those muddy graphics and lowres output was such letdown IMO and going a bit off topic, I also felt the N64 sound was a letdown, after the awesome sound on the SNES. RARE did make ace sounding N64 games mind
Last edited:
cireza
Member
Well that's maybe because Playstation games were not part of what I was answering too. This is, once again, moving the goalpost.
The initial argument was :
So basically 1997 was not as good as 1996 (I suppose lol), okay why not. But 1997 was "meh" overall. Certainly not. PS1 has nothing to do with this.
Which was proven wrong by the quick picture I posted. If getting games like Dragon Force, Fighters Megamix or Die Hard Arcade consists in a "meh" output, then I don't think that many consoles had many good years at all.
The fact that it sold less or wasn't appealing to the guys who were buying Playstations is irrelevant. The 1997 lineup was great, not "meh".
Last edited:
nkarafo
Member
Ok what about NFL Quarterback Club 98? It's a 30fps 640x480 polygonal fest. I don't think any other sports game compares to that on the Saturn.
There's also NBA Courtside 2, which i think is the best looking NBA game of that generation.
I don't find Decathlete particularly impressive. There's very little going on, the stadium is very empty and flat and when there are more than 2 or 3 models on screen, the rest are rendered as sprites.
Also, ISS64 isn't the best looking football game on N64. It's sequel looks better, for instance.
For VS fighting games i will agree when it comes to animation and smoothness. But what does the Saturn have that compares with the 3D background details and lighting of Mace The Dark Age?
I agree about the muddy graphics output and sound though. I don't think there's s single N64 game that has music at higher quality than 32khz and the compressed samples are always bad.
Last edited:
cireza
Member
Wow, that game looks very good ! Didn't know about it. Looks like it pushes a lot of polygons with the full 3D backgrounds.
But that's also to be expected, the N64 was of course much more capable at pushing polygons and had more CPU.
Last edited:
Team Andromeda
Member
The shock !!!
QuarterbackClub still looked too muddy, but fairplay to Acclaim their animation systems were brilliant, I never played courtside truth be told, but I wonder how it holds up against NBA 98 (yes I know it was based on a PS engine) Decathlete looks like a Model 2B game IMO and the old stadium is empty is something you could say about most 3D sports games at that time . You then have the fact that it runs at 60FPS at 704X480 which no N64 sports game came close too, I don't agree with you over ISS but it's debatable either side
The one sports game that did impressive me more to what was on offer on the Saturn, was F1 World Grand Prix. It was a shame it handled like a bitch (a bit like Touring Car on the Saturn) because it looked amazing even with the low res blurry N64 output
Last edited:
nkarafo
Member
Yeah, it doesn't move as gracefully as the Japanese Saturn/PS1 fighters and it has all the western VS fighters jank of the time but i does a ton of stuff on screen.
I remember an impressive looking football game on Saturn someone posted one time, some Japanese exclusive i think it was.
Team Andromeda
Member
Its most prob Go Go Goal. I did a video on its years back
While I also agree with The Dark Age looks good, for me the best looking Vs fighter was Last Bronx on any system. Ok.. that could be the blue skies talking, I get the irony