Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Half of these replied could be responded as "That's not the point." or "You're missing the point."
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Neon Genesis Evangelion AKA the worst anime ever
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JadedWriter
Member
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Moving on isn't some switch you flick and suddenly depression is over. Most challenges aren't overcome in that manner. It's a process and the show deals with it. Sounds like you just wanted a lighter action anime and should have opted for something more shounen-jumpy.
As for the Christian imagery, aesthetic choices are just that, and that doesn't make them any less valid. Anime is a visual medium.
And I don't know what you were expecting using the embarrassing language you chose to use in your original post.
I don't think the show was focused on the characters evolving into better people or even worse people. I think it was more about the foibles and follies of many of the characters deemed brilliant or strong but were in fact quite weak, messed up, and full of issues that if they would have confronted head on would have solved much quicker, easier and simpler. However that's not how people work and I loved the show for that. These were damaged people dealing with other damaged people in a way they hoped would help them both when in fact it often had the opposite effect in the long run.
This was not a show about characters evolving, but trying to survive in a world that doesn't understand or care about them, sometimes literally when concerning the angels.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
Yeah like Sword Art Online
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Look, if you're critique of the show is a lack of character development, then you straight up don't get it. Maybe it's not for you. Maybe the show is actually smarter than you. Who knows but your critiques are not critiques.
Exactly where I stand. Great show until the last 2 episodes, then everything in the series past that is trash.
Megalosaro
Banned
From my experience, most characters that people complain as whiney aren't really whiney. See: Vaan
JadedWriter
Member
Believe it or not there are a lot of Eva fans that hate Rahxephon. I actually feel like Rahxephon handled it's relationships far better than Eva did. It was every bit as cryptic and what the fuck weird as Eva, but I think it had a better idea of what it actually wanted to do as a series. Music is great in Rahxephon too along with the character designs.
I think some of the aversion to Eva is that for many, it was their introduction to the mecha anime genre and possibly did not realize that it was meant to be a deconstruction of all the other mecha shows that came before it.
In any case, this seems to be a good opportunity to once again link to End of Evagelion and the Audience-Author Membrane.
In any case, this seems to be a good opportunity to once again link to End of Evagelion and the Audience-Author Membrane.
If you don't realize this is a HUGE part of the show, you might have missed the point. This isn't supposed to be an insult either. A major theme of the show is about the fact that characters not only make bad decisions but they don't learn from those and worse, sometimes double down because their view of reality and those around them is already warped. Shinji is the poster boy for this but it goes for a good majority of the characters in the show namely Asuka.
The other half can be 'Evangelion is too deep you don't understand'.
It's very entertaining to say the least.
Case and point lol
Octavianus
Banned
No op, Dragon Ball Z is the worst anime ever.
Trust me when I say I feel like there are plenty of ways the show could have been improved.
My question was to them specifically given their criticism. If their critique is that Shinji is too whiny and never got over his depression and the show never moved passed it I want to know what their version of an improved show would have been.
Where would the turning point be if the the depression bit was acceptable but dragged on too long? If everything got better, Shinji saved the world, and finally got to bang Asuka, Rei, and Misato on screen to reward our patience would the show then be a masterpiece?!?
I need more insight into how they feel. I'm giving them an opportunity to redeem themselves by at least explaining why I shouldn't dismiss their critique in lieu of the shit show this thread has been.
God Dayumm
Banned
This is a major plot point that escalated the war, shapes Arya's intentions and Sansa's fate, and any possibility of the Lannisters coming to terms with the Starks. Otherwise the story would be done in one book and a second one after a timeskip for when Daenerys attacks.
Reverend Funk
Comfy Penetration
this is a good video to watch for people who don't "get" eva, it puts a lot of things in perspective https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEDWfjDc_fE
Lol i never really understood where the "Shinji get in the robot stuff" came from.(in the original series at least, End of Eva is a different story.) I mean the vast majority of the tv series he dosen't need that much coercion to pilot Eva(its mostly in the first 5 or so episodes where he's a bit more reluctant) and there's a good stretch where he takes some measure of responsibility in doing it.
Finished Nadesico not too long ago. A great show indeed.
Finished Nadesico not too long ago. A great show indeed.
Ok, for realsies. It pretty much took the mecha genre and flipped it on it's head and deconstructed it. The setting is very much fantasy but it has a bleak tone that was not common in that era and has complex character relationships and portrays very well how it is to go through puberty if you're insecure about yourself.
Many of the character archetypes that are now so derivative were pretty clever as well. Tsundere characters have been a staple for many years before, but it always had a romantic element behind it and it was just comic relief and a façade. Asuka being gorgeous, yet actively disliking shinji was pretty novel for that era and it's managed well through out the whole show. All of the supporting class is well established and have emotional depth to them.
The fights and the actual menace they Angels presented was also novel. You didn't have the hero saves the day after every episode rinse and repeat. There were consequences and the state of the world was confusing and grim. All of the fights are really inventive and very well animated as well.
If you dissociate it from it's context, it's going to seem good but not great since a lot of the things have been done better. But if you insert it in the time frame that gave it life, that's where it truly shines. A few years later Bebop came along and reset the bar for quality and that hasn't been topped yet.
Many of the character archetypes that are now so derivative were pretty clever as well. Tsundere characters have been a staple for many years before, but it always had a romantic element behind it and it was just comic relief and a façade. Asuka being gorgeous, yet actively disliking shinji was pretty novel for that era and it's managed well through out the whole show. All of the supporting class is well established and have emotional depth to them.
The fights and the actual menace they Angels presented was also novel. You didn't have the hero saves the day after every episode rinse and repeat. There were consequences and the state of the world was confusing and grim. All of the fights are really inventive and very well animated as well.
If you dissociate it from it's context, it's going to seem good but not great since a lot of the things have been done better. But if you insert it in the time frame that gave it life, that's where it truly shines. A few years later Bebop came along and reset the bar for quality and that hasn't been topped yet.
Yes and then we have 2 more books of him basically just being a little shit whose biggest claim to fame was being a little shit who fucked things up even worse than they already wore. His defining moments are getting Sansa's wolf killed and having Ned beheaded and those happen in the first book. After that its just GRRM thinking up ways for us to hate him more.
CadetMahoney
Member
Despite Neogaf praising it, unlike you, I never even bothered to start watching it.
First of, probably nostalgia, isn't it mid-90's? Good for it's time sort of thing, secondly I can tell it looks shit.
Another one I couldn't get into was Hunter x Hunter. . . It was 'ok' but had to stop because the characters had no depth and didn't click with me. Steins Gate is also a piece of shit vomit, boring as hell.
Muffdraul
Member
Seriously, the OP was a great trip down memory lane from almost 20 years ago. The feels.
Well I certainly didn't know when Asuka first appeared she would basically be revealed to be a mirror image of Shinji.
I certainly didn't expect Gendo's problems to reflect on Shinji's to the point where he's basically a grown-up Shinji stuck in his current state.
I definitely enjoyed the growth that Rei displayed, finally forming a proper human connection that seemed incredibly foreign to her at the start of the show.
I was put on edge near the end when I wasn't sure whether Misato would be able to accept her responsibilities as the adult she was supposed to be, and felt conflicted and surprised when it seemed she only made half way.
I just want to mention that I was not referring to the Christianity references in the show, but instead the internal show mythology. There's a lot to dig into there for fans of subtle worldbuilding and the like (of which I am one).
Okay I'm done arguing with you dude. So apparently it's 2deep4me because I expected Shinji to understand his situation better and make different decisions from his self-reflections (NOTE: Even if they were bad decisions)
Have you ever met someone with real deal depression? That's actually pretty damn accurate. This comes from someone with depression.
Edit: People with depression don't just learn to understand their situation and suddenly get better because of self reflection.
NESpowerhouse
Perhaps he's wondering why someone would shoot a man before throwing him out of a plane.
Is Eva actually deep like shows like Utena or is it just style with little to no substance to back it up?
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Ok, and who cares. Is it not hard to accept that works of art can't be hard to understand or deep?
The movie just makes the last two episodes of Evangelion make even less sense.....Which I thought would be pretty hard to do, but there it is. Just watch it for the pretty animation. The last two episodes actually do make sense after you watch them more than once, the same cant be said for End of Evangelion which is just dumb story-wise.
and obligatory:
and obligatory:
The movies are actually a total retelling of the ending of the series. The movies actually end with the "happy" ending because Shinji rejects the fake forced happiness of the human instrumentality project because he'd rather live in the real world, pain and all. They're basically the opposite of what the original series ending was going for where humanity, including Shinji, just accept human instrumentality.
Utena is a pretty apt comparison. Although I'd say its core themes are more strongly stated than Eva, but it is also more pointlessly vague I feel.
JadedWriter
Member
Nobody in that show technically makes the better decision, not even Kaji or Ritsuko and they're probably the two most level headed characters in there. Even Fuyutsuki has some baggage. Ibuki as well, it's pretty much a show full of fucked up people incapable of putting their internal bullshit aside until it's too late which is usually about 15 minutes before they die.
Megalosaro
Banned
People don't understand what character development is. They expect purple to naively become perfect after their development.
This is why I like amuro from gundam. He goes from bring a brat to bring a dude who is mostly nice but sort of a dick
This is why I like amuro from gundam. He goes from bring a brat to bring a dude who is mostly nice but sort of a dick
Insulting someone because they don't like a show is incredibly childish. Similarly, insulting someone because they do like a show is also ridiculous.
I'm just pointing out that there are two sides to this whole debate and both of them are devolving into petty insults.
Ganzlinger
Member
This is terribly written review, mate. I mean, I don't see objective criticism. You just don't like the stuff, it doesn't mean it is garbage.
"The worst anime ever", please, how can anyone take this seriously?
"The worst anime ever", please, how can anyone take this seriously?
What you don't seem to understand is that (atleast some of) the people who don't like Shinji understand that he's suffering from depression. Do you think everyone suffering from it doesn't recover? Is depression permanent?
Using "Shinji's depressed" as a response for all the hate towards him isn't a valid argument.
I suspect a lot of the real Eva die-hards aren't looking at both shows all that critically to begin with, so some irrational hatred wouldn't surprise me. RahXephon struck me as a show that was meticulously planned from the start so it naturally lands the reveals and character growth beats more smoothly. Eva feels more like the story was made up as it goes along, so its endings inevitably veer off into nonsense symbolism that aren't all that satisfying as conclusions.
errr. yes?
NESpowerhouse
Perhaps he's wondering why someone would shoot a man before throwing him out of a plane.
So it's more akin to the Utena movie where not. A. Single. Goddamn. Thing. Made. Sense.
Eva was one of my foundational anime series that I watched in my early teens. For me it lived up to the hype, but just like anything else, not everyone is going to like it or find it appealing. Shinji may be one of the most frustrating protagonists ever, but I found him to be highly relatable and fleshed out. Eva was just chock full of fucked-up maladjusted individuals and I loved that about it. Almost felt like a damn character study at times.
Why? It's a weak troll thread
Spoiler: It's not.
Allonym
There should be more tampons in gaming
I think I love you. I totally agree with this. Why Evangelion is regarded as a classic, I'll never know. It has some good action sequences but the story, storytelling and characters are all garbage. Nice mech design though.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Oh, I get it, you're one of those "both sides are wrong" kind of guys who's too good to make an argument.
Plus I wasn't insulting that poster. Unless insisting the show went over his head can be considered and insult.
Moving on.
LUFTRAUSER
Banned
PsychoSoldier
Banned
As one of my first animes I liked it, except for the way it ended (both times), but the more I watched the more I realized it ultimately was kind of a mess in terms of story and characterization.
Many things were better than it when released and many more have surpassed it since. I know it's a derivative work in most ways but I'll choose RahXephon over NGE any day of the week.
Many things were better than it when released and many more have surpassed it since. I know it's a derivative work in most ways but I'll choose RahXephon over NGE any day of the week.
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