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[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

You're just going by sales numbers of a retail product vs the sales numbers of a shareware, retail and pirated product. There's no way to quantify that.

However, you can quantify that you're the only person on one of the largest Internet console gaming forums that's saying Goldeneye/Perfect Dark introduced more people to FPSes than Doom/Quake. Stop using your own personal experiences and trying to assume that a huge majority of others were the same way.

I'm sure Goldeneye did a lot to bring in a console FPS audience, but you're not taking into consideration that it only did so because it was the first good one. In the sales numbers for Goldeneye that you quoted, how sure are you of how many of those people had played Doom or Quake first and then got Goldeneye when they heard it was a good console FPS? In fact, how sure are you that a lot of those Goldeneye players also didn't play Doom 64 or N64 Quake 1/2 first?

You're rewriting history here from inside of your box, and that's why you're the only one that's got your viewpoint. Doom/Quake is more important and got more people into the FPS genre.

 

[radrelic]

You're backpeddling. First you said "lineage." Lineage encompasses ALL those things, not simply exposure or sales data. But let's put that aside at the moment.

Yes I did say lineage when I was referring to which series I think is more important to most gamers, which is the Goldeneye/Perfect Dark lineage.

We're talking about the game that redefined the FPS genre. That pulled countless people into the realm of online gaming. It singlehandedly change peoples expectations for FPS, and yes it WAS very mainstream and got plenty of press. Anecdotal evidence, as compelling as it isn't, simply does not tell a truthful case.

No doubt Quake was mainsteam for it's time. It brought attention to the FPS genre and got an insane amount of players online..... BUT I firmly believe it was not as mainstream as Goldeneye.

 

[radrelic]

You're just going by sales numbers of a retail product vs the sales numbers of a shareware, retail and pirated product. There's no way to quantify that.

However, you can quantify that you're the only person on one of the largest Internet console gaming forums that's saying Goldeneye/Perfect Dark introduced more people to FPSes than Doom/Quake. Stop using your own personal experiences and trying to assume that a huge majority of others were the same way.

I'm sure Goldeneye did a lot to bring in a console FPS audience, but you're not taking into consideration that it only did so because it was the first good one. In the sales numbers for Goldeneye that you quoted, how sure are you of how many of those people had played Doom or Quake first and then got Goldeneye when they heard it was a good console FPS? In fact, how sure are you that a lot of those Goldeneye players also didn't play Doom 64 or N64 Quake 1/2 first?

You're rewriting history here from inside of your box, and that's why you're the only one that's got your viewpoint. Doom/Quake is more important and got more people into the FPS genre.

You make a valid point, my opinion is based on mostly assumption. An assumption that I firmly believe in. I look at the size of the console userbase and I look at the PC userbase and there is no argument that console gamers are the majority... which once again leads to my belief that Goldeneye introduced ALOT of people to the FPS genre.

 

[Amir0x]

Yes I did say lineage when I was referring to which series I think is more important to most gamers, which is the Goldeneye/Perfect Dark lineage.

No, I think at this point it's pretty clear it's more important to you, which is clouding your judgment. That said, in terms of variable significance of successors, Perfect Dark Zero IS more important than Quake IV, since PDZ is supposed to be the "stand-in" flagship title for XBX360 while they wait for Halo 3. Quake IV is not as important a successor.

No doubt Quake was mainsteam for it's time. It brought attention to the FPS genre and got an insane amount of players online..... BUT I firmly believe it was not as mainstream as Goldeneye.

I understand you firmly believe this, we just established that I feel it's misguided and ultimately incorrect.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

You make a valid point, my opinion is based on mostly assumption. An assumption that I believe firmly in. I look at the size of the console userbase and I look at the PC userbase and there is no argument that console gamers are the majority... which once again leads to my belief Goldeneye introduced ALOT of people to the FPS genre.

You're entitled to your own opinion of how things work... but if you use that argument, I'd want to know how the Halo series got to be so hugely mainstream on the Xbox, a system that sold way, way less than the PS2, when no PS2 FPS game has ever gotten that huge.

And why do you think the PC userbase is so small? Just about everyone that plays games has one, whether it's up-to-date or not. Not everyone has a console.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

It also probably depends somewhat on how you define mainstream. If you define mainstream as people that don't play PC games...then, well, yea. Goldeneye would kindof win by default. But if you define mainstream as just anyone in general than I would definitely say Quake has brought the FPS genre to more people.

 

[radrelic]

I can't really further my point more than I already have.

I still believe that Goldeneye introduced more players into the FPS genre than Quake and until I see some numbers or facts that prove otherwise, my opinion won't change.

 

[Ryudo]

I can't really further my point more than I already have.

I still believe that Goldeneye introduced more players into the FPS genre than Quake and until I see some numbers or facts that prove otherwise, my opinion won't change.

How many people owned a pentium computer and a 3dfx card ? Then ask yourself how many people bought an N64.

The answer is obvious, Quake was like a religion in the pentium days. Quake is single handedly responsible for what multiplayer internet gaming is today.

Quake deserves respect, i cant believe how many there are who continually diss the game. If you think the art is generic thats fine, but we dont need to hear it in every thread. Just remember, ID software created the Doom and Quake art style, they can use it all the hell they want.

 

[blackadde]

Hm. Wikipedia isn't exactly a rock-solid resource but it's the closest thing I've found so far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom

The game sold a total of 1.5 million copies. While a large number, this was not extraordinary—for comparison, the contemporary graphical adventure game Myst sold a record-breaking 9 million. A better measure of Doom's popularity is the distribution of the shareware version, which is estimated to have been downloaded and played by 15-20 million people. Notoriously, there are some reports that Doom at a point was a serious threat to productivity and that networks were clogged by deathmatches and shareware downloads. The problems led some, including Intel and Carnegie Mellon University, to form policies specifically disallowing Doom-playing during work hours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake

Quake and its two "sequels", Quake II and Quake III Arena, have sold over 4 million copies combined.

Also of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versions_and_ports_of_Doom

 

[Ryudo]

I would also like to add that the quake engine has powered many games, yet more influence upon bringing people to play FPS.

 

[Amir0x]

A better measure of Doom's popularity is the distribution of the shareware version, which is estimated to have been downloaded and played by 15-20 million people. Notoriously, there are some reports that Doom at a point was a serious threat to productivity and that networks were clogged by deathmatches and shareware downloads. The problems led some, including Intel and Carnegie Mellon University, to form policies specifically disallowing Doom-playing during work hours.

Holy mother of fuck, that's more than I even guessed for Doom.

 

[raYne]

Holy mother of fuck, that's more than I even guessed for Doom.

As I said... a shitload... :lol

 

[JJConrad]

This debate has been entertaining. It sounds like both sides are trying to downplay the importance of the other's (Amir0x much more than Cerrius). Both games have had a huge influence.

Going back to the original question, the reason PD0 is getting so much more hype than Q4 is because PD0 is (suppose to be) a high-profile, 1st party, flagship launch title from a high profile and controversial developer, meanwhile Quake has never had a major presence in the console market.

 

[Amir0x]

This debate has been entertaining. It sounds like both sides are trying to downplay the importance of the other's (Amir0x much more than Cerrius). Both games have had a huge influence.

I'm not downplaying the importance of Goldeneye. It's just not in the same league as Quake, is all. Because it's not. It doesn't have an equally massive lineage as Quake does, so saying it does would be false.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

Oh Cerrius, what have you done? You should have known not to argue something like this.. :lol

While I don't completely agree or disagree with you either way, I'll say that you are correct in that GoldenEye was big for the console FPS genre. It pretty much kickstarted it, and went on to sell massive numbers. (and deservedly so)

But the Quake "lineage" is arguably more important. I'm not even gonna go into detail because EVERY single other person in this thread has. :lol

That 15-20 million number (shareware) for Doom is surprising.. , but the 4 million number (sold) for Quake is lower than I expected..

But in comparison to the 15-20 million, let's also remember that GoldenEye sold what, 6 or 7 million in the US alone? And with people without N64s playing at their friends house, that number can easily double or so of who has played the game. And the Doom/Quake overall played number can also be affected by people not actually owning the game but just playing it at a friend's house. So the numbers are kinda hazy.

In terms of the "casual" market of games.. I tend to agree GoldenEye was the "bigger" game. Not more important in lineage, but I believe more casual gamers know GoldenEye than those that know of Quake. <-- Will get blasted for that comment :lol

Of course.. this all boils down to nothing. Because no one can really prove anything and ultimately it doesn't matter. Whew. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Aladdin for the Sega Genesis was the single most important game of all time. There, I said it. No wait, I'm wrong.. it was Tommy Lasorda's Baseball. There we go.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

This debate has been entertaining. It sounds like both sides are trying to downplay the importance of the other's (Amir0x much more than Cerrius). Both games have had a huge influence.
Going back to the original question, the reason PD0 is getting so much more hype than Q4 is because PD0 is (suppose to be) a high-profile, 1st party, flagship launch title from a high profile and controversial developer, meanwhile Quake has never had a major presence in the console market.

FINALLY, something we can all agree on.

 

[blackadde]

Going back to the original question, the reason PD0 is getting so much more hype than Q4 is because PD0 is (suppose to be) a high-profile, 1st party, flagship launch title from a high profile and controversial developer, meanwhile Quake has never had a major presence in the console market.

I guess I could see that. Maybe I'm just overestimating the number of PC gamers on the board. Growing up, pretty much everyone I knew who had a console also played games on their PC (or at least the big ones - Quake 3, Starcraft, Diablo 2, Counterstrike, etc).

 

[Gattsu25]

This debate has been entertaining. It sounds like both sides are trying to downplay the importance of the other's (Amir0x much more than Cerrius). Both games have had a huge influence.

And what exactly was the influence that Goldeneye brought to the FPS games in terms of gameplay? As far as I can tell...dual weilding and...tanks? System Shock, Doom, Wolf3D, and Quake as well as the games based on those engines (and later Unreal) have OWNED the FPS genre up until Medal of Honor Allied Assault and Counter Strike (along with a bunch of other HL mods) properly introduced Modern and Historical war to online first person gamers and eventually ruined the FPS genre.

Goldeneye was a bunch of console gamers' first foray into the world on FPS deathmatch...a world that has existed for ages before their slow asses found it...hard to tout it as a huge advancement when the console FPS market didn't take off afterward and only recently picked up with the release of HALO wich started off as a PC game anyway :b

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

Quake deserves respect, i cant believe how many there are who continually diss the game. If you think the art is generic thats fine, but we dont need to hear it in every thread. Just remember, ID software created the Doom and Quake art style, they can use it all the hell they want.

Just to rephrase this, because this is REALLY REALLY REALLY important, if you feel that quake's and Doom's art is generic, it's is only because Quake and Doom made it so.

 

[blackadde]

tanks?

I'm pretty sure Shadow Warrior let you drive a tank around.

 

[Monk]

Just to rephrase this, because this is REALLY REALLY REALLY important, if you feel that quake's and Doom's art is generic, it's is only because Quake and Doom made it so.

Or is it because of the millions of clones?

 

[Gattsu25]

I'm pretty sure Shadow Warrior let you drive a tank around.

ahh yeah...you're right...didn't SW also have dual uzis? Hmm...so then...what did GE007 introduce to the FPS market? chronic slowdown and what else...

edit: well...did a quick check and SW allowed dual pistols as well...but was released a week or so AFTER goldeneye...the fullversion...

the shareware was released before and featured both

 

[raYne]

ahh yeah...you're right...didn't SW also have dual uzis? Hmm...so then...what did GE007 introduce to the FPS market? chronic slowdown and what else...

Laser watches and dual knife weilding!

 

[Gattsu25]

Laser watches and dual knife weilding!

Laser Watches are not as important as wall-mounted-trip-mines that Duke3D had...and dual knives is a joke when it comes to importance...

GE007 did introduce the console world to scaling Missions though......those did exist several years back in System Shock...hmmm...bullet hole decals? no. Multi Tiered levels? no. Multiplayer? no. Single Player? no. SNIPER RIFLES????

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

Or is it because of the millions of clones?

Indeed, it's probably primarily that.

I was just trying to say that Quake and Doom can't be faulted for being derivative in art style, because they simply aren't. Probably didn't come out quite like that though...

 

[raYne]

Laser Watches are not as important as wall-mounted-trip-mines that Duke3D had...and dual knives is a joke when it comes to importance...

GE007 did introduce the console world to scaling Missions though......those did exist several years back in System Shock...hmmm...bullet hole decals? no. Multi Tiered levels? no. Multiplayer? no. Single Player? no. SNIPER RIFLES????

Oh yeah? Well... dual rocket launcher wielding! And GE pioneered the use of dual wielding different weapons at the same time (via glitch). Take THAT Halo 2 and other GE clones! :lol

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

Oh yeah? Well... dual rocket launcher wielding! And GE pioneerd the use of dual wielding different weapons at the same time (via glitch). Take THAT Halo 2 and other GE clones! :lol

What about shooting out lights? Even if it didn't actually make anything dark, I think GE pioneered that as well. Windows too.

 

[Yusaku]

No anistropic filtering.

 

[raYne]

What about shooting out lights? Even if it didn't actually make anything dark, I think GE pioneered that as well. Windows too.

Indeed.. this man knows what he's talking about!

But on a more serious note what about the "challenge" modes and subsequent unlockables? The blood stained clothes resulting from bullet wounds? Didn't melee attacks in GE kill in one hit from the back or am I remembering wrong?...

There's gotta be something...

 

[Pimpwerx]

The game sold a total of 1.5 million copies. While a large number, this was not extraordinary—for comparison, the contemporary graphical adventure game Myst sold a record-breaking 9 million. A better measure of Doom's popularity is the distribution of the shareware version, which is estimated to have been downloaded and played by 15-20 million people. Notoriously, there are some reports that Doom at a point was a serious threat to productivity and that networks were clogged by deathmatches and shareware downloads. The problems led some, including Intel and Carnegie Mellon University, to form policies specifically disallowing Doom-playing during work hours.

Yeah bitch! I was at CMU during the Summer of 1994, and I can attest to ruining their PC lab's bandwidth with 8 hour Doom sessions. Score one for video game addict high schoolers on Summer vacation. PEACE.

 

[Ryudo]

Just to rephrase this, because this is REALLY REALLY REALLY important, if you feel that quake's and Doom's art is generic, it's is only because Quake and Doom made it so.

edit: i made a boo boo.

 

[Tain]

What about shooting out lights? Even if it didn't actually make anything dark, I think GE pioneered that as well. Windows too.

Duke3D for both.