New Sonic game rumored to be unviled in February for almost every platform

Exactly. Boost adds nothing to gameplay and actually ends up taking away from it.

Only if you don't know how to use it properly.

Its amazing how many people spam the boost endlessly, then complain about how awful it is and how it makes the game hard to control.

If you go through the level a couple times and gain familiarity, the boost actually becomes an excellent mechanic to really increase your times, if you use it properly.

EDIT: Crisis City in generations was quite good. Lots of platforming the first few times, but as you get better you can skip a lot of it. That was one of the things that was great about Generations - a lot of branching paths. The first time through levels, you are definitely going to be doing some platforming. But once you get good, you can plow right through (or over, or around) those sections.

EDIT 2: To be clear, I am not saying the formula they have is perfect. More platforming and branching paths would improve things greatly. But Generations is the best implementation of Sonic in 3D, and its damn fun.
 
This is seriously an honest question.

I see SA1 too often cited as an unplayable, horrible game. I understand the Big portion is the most out of place segment, and that the visuals and VA's have aged (but how is this exclusive to SA in that era of 3D games?), but I can honestly pick it up today and effortlessly breeze through it as easily as I did in '99. There are some camera quirks and slowdown along the way sure, but not in a gamebreaking fashion. And definitely not to 06's caliber. The music is vibrant and catchy, the stages are varied and well paced, Adventure Fields are efficient and filled with secrets and connect the world cohesively, and sans Big and Gamma, all of the characters control similarly enough to offer an approachable variant to Sonic's gameplay. Even its 'epic' story mostly consists of an adventurous innocent glance through the perspectives of each character, all intertwining along the way. No moons are blown up, or characters shot or arrested. Everything is in the adventurous spirit of the characters and world.

I guess I just want to understand what categorizes this game as an atrocity, and why things like gameplay and visuals aging is condemns this game and not the thousands of other 3D games from the DC era and behind.
It aged badly. And I just don't like controlling Sonic in that game. Also, shitty level design. Actually, I prefer linear paths, with multiple routes than a hub.

No thanks. You're basically holding one button and pressing one other to win.

Now you're just fucking kidding me, right?
 
No thanks. You're basically holding one button and pressing one other to win.

That's a speedrun level, so naturally the guy is skipping good chunks of the level making it look REALLY easy. Trust me, that level does have actual platforming!

(I don't think it's a great level to be honest though.)
 
Now you're just fucking kidding me, right?

Well, you know what? I forgot that the analog stick gets used to move to the left and right. And the player has to hold it down as well (to perform the stomp move). The only part that is demanding is the timing which the play has nailed down for his/her speedrun. Which is fine for them but that's not fun or varied gameplay, IMO.

Uh no are you are not wtf? Watch the damn video before you try to talk shit.

First off, no need to be hostile. I didn't throw a curse word at you. Secondly, I watched the video. It consisted of boosting (holding down one button), and jumping (pressing the jump button). And uses of the analog stick (as mentioned above). So yeah.

That's like saying the same thing about Sonic 2.
Not really. Sonic 2 consisted of actual platforming; it's stages didn't have one narrow path with a pit of death surrounding it all, it didn't use anything like the homing attack for progression, nor did it take control away from you during gameplay.

You actually had to navigate stages with carefully timed jumps and different paths that required Sonic to slow down. A lot of the stages didn't even allow Sonic to move at high speeds. Casino Night Zone, Mystic Cave Zone, Oil Ocean Zone, Metropolis Zone are a few examples.

So no, nothing like Sonic 2.

That's a speedrun level, so naturally the guy is skipping good chunks of the level making it look REALLY easy. Trust me, that level does have actual platforming!

(I don't think it's a great level to be honest though.)

There are a few platforming spots but they're very basic. I question they're inclusion as it breaks the flow of the boost heavy gameplay. Anyway, the platforming segments aren't very good and controlling Sonic in the 2D segments isn't as friendly as the 3D segments were movement is a non-issue (you primarily have to worry about jumping, hopping, and boosting).

you sonic fans are fucking dense.

how can anyone think this is just holding one button and pressing another?
There's the cursing again. It's not precisely *just* holding one button and pressing another but its as automatic as it can get. (Well, no, they could go back to the way Sonic & the Secret Rings controlled Sonic's forward movement for you; that would be way more automatic.) My point still stands, there's not much to that stage than boosting, jumping, performing the homing attack, boosting again. It's cool to watch but painfully dull to play.
 
You actually had to navigate stages with carefully timed jumps and different paths that required Sonic to slow down.

Yes the modern sonic stages have this as well minus slowing down for the most part.

You are trying to tell me that the speed run video I posted DOES NOT have a ton of carefully timed jumps? Half a second off at any point in that video and you are instantly fucked for your entire run.

Also 2d sonic game speed runs looks pretty similar to the modern ones just on a 2d plane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xuk_A97yhVo
 
My point still stands, there's not much to that stage than boosting, jumping, performing the homing attack, boosting again. It's cool to watch but painfully dull to play.
Why yes, I do agree it's easy to come to that conclusion when watching someone seriously try to speedrun that stage instead of taking their time to go through it.
 
My point still stands, there's not much to that stage than boosting, jumping, performing the homing attack, boosting again. It's cool to watch but painfully dull to play.

This is like saying there's nothing more to the classic games than running and jumping.
 
The best Generations stages continue to be Sky Sanctuary and Seaside Hill. Any talk regarding level design going forward should consider those as the baseline.

Well, you know what? I forgot that the analog stick gets used to move to the left and right. And the player has to hold it down as well (to perform the stomp move). The only part that is demanding is the timing which the play has nailed down for his/her speedrun. Which is fine for them but that's not fun or varied gameplay, IMO.

First off, no need to be hostile. I didn't throw a curse word at you. Secondly, I watched the video. It consisted of boosting (holding down one button), and jumping (pressing the jump button). And uses of the analog stick (as mentioned above). So yeah.

Control-based arguments aren't in your favor when the series was intentionally designed to be playable with a single button. If anything they're too complex these days. No one would miss sliding or lightdashing.

Stick to phrasing the issue as limited interactivity, if that's your point.
 
Well, you know what? I forgot that the analog stick gets used to move to the left and right. And the player has to hold it down as well (to perform the stomp move). The only part that is demanding is the timing which the play has nailed down for his/her speedrun. Which is fine for them but that's not fun or varied gameplay, IMO.

That's all Sonic was ever about though.
 
Not really. Sonic 2 consisted of actual platforming; it's stages didn't have one narrow path with a pit of death surrounding it all, it didn't use anything like the homing attack for progression, nor did it take control away from you during gameplay.
Hold right, jump. Hold right instead. Press down while running and watch. And the classics took control away from you about as much, I'd say. Tubes, warps, cannons, and other gimmicks did this. Speed boosters weren't exactly introduced in the modern games, either. If anything, boosting offers a method of speeding up without taking control away.

And did we play the same Sonic 2? Wing Fortress Zone is the epitome of being surrounded by a pit of death. And I'd say it's even worse, due to the lack of visual feedback on whether or not a jump will lead you to another level or straight to hell. At least in 3D games you can see the pits, which, in case you've never checked it out, don't surround most of the levels in Generations.

Ultimately, this is all just semantics. You can phrase it however you like, but you're essentially pointing out that they're different. This may not be to your tastes, but it's not objectively worse. Each game's level design accommodates its respective gameplay style well enough.

You actually had to navigate stages with carefully timed jumps and different paths that required Sonic to slow down. A lot of the stages didn't even allow Sonic to move at high speeds. Casino Night Zone, Mystic Cave Zone, Oil Ocean Zone, Metropolis Zone are a few examples.
Casino Night had some slower sections, and those were generally waiting for a floating cube to move. There was still the same speed, you simply were put in a smaller area with bumpers and flippers to act as gimmicks and direct that speed in a number of directions to impede your progression. Oil Ocean had fast sections, as did Mystic Cave. Metropolis was a chore. In fact, I'm willing to bet for most people not being able to move quickly in some stages made them not fun. Having just replayed the games, I'm actually finding myself agreeing with them.


There are a few platforming spots but they're very basic. I question they're inclusion as it breaks the flow of the boost heavy gameplay. Anyway, the platforming segments aren't very good and controlling Sonic in the 2D segments isn't as friendly as the 3D segments were movement is a non-issue (you primarily have to worry about jumping, hopping, and boosting).

There's plenty of platforming. The whole thing is platforming! I don't see how the platforming is any more basic than the originals. The idea is still to be jumping from platform to platform at a high speed to reach the optimal route. The modern games still have this, believe it or not. The paths are briefer and generally considered shortcuts, but that doesn't mean they're absent.

In Sonic 2 you just have to worry about jumping and rolling. Movement is a non-issue.
I mean seriously, what kind of logic is that?

There's the cursing again. It's not precisely *just* holding one button and pressing another but its as automatic as it can get. (Well, no, they could go back to the way Sonic & the Secret Rings controlled Sonic's forward movement for you; that would be way more automatic.) My point still stands, there's not much to that stage than boosting, jumping, performing the homing attack, boosting again. It's cool to watch but painfully dull to play.

Move, jump, roll, move, jump again. I'm seeing a pattern here...

And it's not like, y'know, you have to drift or quick-step or do any sort of twitch-action platforming. Oh wait.
 
The best Generations stages continue to be Sky Sanctuary and Seaside Hill. Any talk regarding level design going forward should consider those as the baseline.

This is true. Those are the best stages in Generations. I'd enjoy a little more length, but what is there is great stuff. Lots of paths and mostly interconnected paths. City escape is also one of my favorites, but I really don't like how short it seems due to the truck sequence.


Here's something I don't think anyone has brought up, at least lately. Grinding. I think that grinding in SA2 griding was more interesting than in modern games. Not that it is perfect, just more interesting.

Rails in SA2 required the player to balance correctly to gain speed. They were mostly kept to a minimum besides Rail Canyon and Final Rush/chase which obviously revolved around them. However, most of the time they had rails travel beside a path and served as a smaller alternate path, which could reward the player or hurt them. It was a simple touch that made a difference.

But now grinding has lost the balance mechanic. When the player is on a rail, they are literally on a rail. The only thing that affects players is whether they are boosting or not. For whatever reason, they design rail segments to stretch over a gap and have spikes that you have to dodge or jump over. It boils down to an even less involving version of boosting and quickstepping down a hallway.
 
You actually had to navigate stages with carefully timed jumps and different paths that required Sonic to slow down. A lot of the stages didn't even allow Sonic to move at high speeds. Casino Night Zone, Mystic Cave Zone, Oil Ocean Zone, Metropolis Zone are a few examples.

So no, nothing like Sonic 2.

The only part of Casino Night Zone that caused you to slow down was waiting for a block or elevator to move up.
 
My industry sources tell me that Square-Enix is developing the next Sonic game. The game will be titled "Sonic the Hedgehog '06-2," and will release alongside Versus XIII.
 
My industry sources tell me that Square-Enix is developing the next Sonic game. The game will be titled "Sonic the Hedgehog '06-2," and will release alongside Versus XIII.

Fabula Nova Emeraldis, indeed.
 
Super Mario 64 wasn't really a collectathon outside of the 100 coin challenges.

Collectathons are, like, gather 15 of these things laying around or hidden underwater or use the dig move in this spot and you get them. Donkey Kong 64 is a collectathon.

Stars in 3D Marios are basically objective markers. You're given one when you complete an objective, which sometimes can include getting to the top of somewhere, but more often is about doing something in a level. They just made convenient 3D objects to touch to signal the end of a level.

Would it still be considered a Collectathon if you touched a flagpole and you needed to beat eight stages to proceed to Bowser?

There are also the red coins but I can see your point. I still say 64 falls under the collectathon tag more. I don't mean this in a bad way. The problem with your flag pole analogy is it would not work in 64. You are not playing 8 stages. You are playing a single world with 8 stars to collect.

Look at it this way the first star is gotten by getting to the top of the mountain and beating the boss. The next one is literally running the same path in the same stage with the same obstacles to beat koopa the quick. Not to mention that IIRC both stages can be completed with a single jump.

In 64 you could get stars out of order because it was not as simple as going to the flag pole and it was great. They were tasks like luring an eel out to play or flying through rings. Sunshine was worse because the levels were more strict on that. The Galaxy games on the other hand (especially 2) don't even need the stars and could use flag poles with exceptions to the levels that specifically act like 64.

DK64 is on the extreme side of collectathons Banjo is a much better comparison point. The 5 Jingo's in the stage are like the Red Coins, the Notes are the Coins, the Jiggys are the Stars and Gruntlda's lair was Peach's castle Banjo just refined the formula.

As much as I love collectathons Sonic tried this with Knuckles stages in adventure and most people hated it. I personally found the stages fun to explore but will admit this is not a style that suits Sonic. Generation refined it's own style well, as others have said Sky Sanctuary and Seaside Hill did this amazingly well. We need more stages that build on that and if the rumors are true that may be what we get.
 
The best Generations stages continue to be Sky Sanctuary and Seaside Hill. Any talk regarding level design going forward should consider those as the baseline.
Seaside hill is instafucking shit due to dying when you don't boost when running on water. Yeah, the kind of water that kills you, not that other one that won't kill you. So stupid design decision
 
Seaside hill is instafucking shit due to dying when you don't boost when running on water. Yeah, the kind of water that kills you, not that other one that won't kill you. So stupid design decision

Proper underwater sections in 3D would be nice, but that's something that few developers have ever mastered even in 2D, so I'm not holding my breath. The water running sections aren't too prolonged relative to what Unleashed pulled out, and I like the risk/reward nature of taking shortcuts across it.

And even aside from that, the level's incredible thanks to the absurd variety of routes you can take and little hidden things to find. The designer started building it and never stopped, and the result is the closest they've come to recreating the feel of a Sonic 3 level in any game since.
 
The modern sonic behind view mach speed gameplay is so dumb. It's not even sonic. The skill ceiling is insanely high and it doesn't look or feel anything like Sonic 1-2-3.

At least Sonic Adventure was platformy and fun, Sonic Generations didn't feel like an evolution of Sonic, just a game with the Sonic IP on it.


Kinda like Banjo-Kazooie N&B.
 
Ok, why? What does boost add? How does it not end up hurting the overall design and gameplay?

It adds speed, lowers the reaction times required and pumps up the adrenaline. I agree to the poster who said that Sonic resembles F-Zero a bit, but what's wrong in that? It's a super highspeed take on the platforming genre, like F-zero is a super highspeed take on the racing genre. Give me more of that!

I haven't played Sonic 06 but I was under the impression that the reason it's universally reviled has more to do with game-destroying bugs rather than gameplay choices. Wasn't the gameplay essentially a continuation of the stuff they were doing with the Adventure games? (Adventure was certainly flawed but it at least felt Sonic-esque to me, the new games look too much like Sonic Racing games)

The bugs are the least problems of Sonic 06. They are annoying, but hardly game breaking. The base gameplay is slow and boring, most characters suck extremely hard, the mach speed sections are unfairly laid out and control like crap, loading times are annoying, the overworld is a barren, boring, embarassingly bad place to be in, many level designs suck, changing characters in between a level is a supremely bad idea, the controls are stiff and don't adapt well to the faster characters (like Sonic) - which still are slow. I just think that the choice to incorporate so many different characters lead to a drain in ressources to optimize the gameplay of the one character who counts, Sonic.

You're all looking at it the wrong way. The idea that speed in a Sonic game is a reward for doing well was thrown out the window the moment they stuck the first horizontal red spring in a level, much less the speed boosters in various S2 and S3K levels. If you don't believe the spin dash is overpowered as a way of attaining speed, go watch a Sonic 2 speedrun and tell me the very first thing the player does on every single act.

Particularly in Unleashed and Generations (not so much Colors, where Wisps are the core mechanic), boost is a risk/reward tradeoff. The goal of the stage is to get the best score in the fastest time, and the boost is designed to enhance your speed at the cost of forcing you to react more quickly to oncoming obstacles. Sure, enemies cease being an obstacle. The level design itself is the obstacle - each wall you run into, each spike trap you don't quite avoid in time, each pit you fall down (notice in Unleashed, for instance, dying doesn't reset your timer and you respawn with no boost?) kills your momentum or take several seconds to recover from. Sure, once Sonic gets out of his damage animation, you can just boost back to full speed, but the damage has already been done. Being able to go from 0 to 60 instantly is not a bad thing unless you're wrongly trying to judge the worth of the mechanic by its contribution to the speed-as-a-reward philosophy, which is not what the modern games are designed around at all. Speed is the risk, a great time is the reward.

This! So true!

Well, you know what? I forgot that the analog stick gets used to move to the left and right. And the player has to hold it down as well (to perform the stomp move). The only part that is demanding is the timing which the play has nailed down for his/her speedrun. Which is fine for them but that's not fun or varied gameplay, IMO.

(...)

There's the cursing again. It's not precisely *just* holding one button and pressing another but its as automatic as it can get. (Well, no, they could go back to the way Sonic & the Secret Rings controlled Sonic's forward movement for you; that would be way more automatic.) My point still stands, there's not much to that stage than boosting, jumping, performing the homing attack, boosting again. It's cool to watch but painfully dull to play.

First of all, a platformer that uses three buttons with distinct functions (in addition to the sidestep buttons and the analogstick) is hardly over simplified (in fact, in Sonic 1-3 you only have to hold the d-pad and press one (1!) button to win), second, the modern Sonic games are not automatic, there may be a few short sections where you have limited control or can't fail easily, but most of the time the games are rather challenging, especially Unleashed.

They need to keep moving away from levels that basically play themselves; fewer boost/autorun sections, less rail grinding, more speedy platforming.
Really, which Sonic game plays itself? I somewhat might give you Sonic Advance 2, which was mentioned earlier, but still this game gets quite challenging later on.
 
Really, which Sonic game plays itself? I somewhat might give you Sonic Advance 2, which was mentioned earlier, but still this game gets quite challenging later on.

I didn't say the whole games play themselves. They have long sections where yo don't do much. Boost sections in Unleashed and Colors were terrible, and pretty much anything involving rail grinding. Generations moved away from those shitty boost segments for the most part.
 
The best Generations stages continue to be Sky Sanctuary and Seaside Hill Speed Highway. Any talk regarding level design going forward should consider those as the baseline.
Classic Seaside is a perfectly fine Hydrocity throw-back but the modern level feels very thrown together to me, like the 2D and 3D elements of the stage are at odds with one another. Fun, but not something I hope Sonic Team bases further level designs off like Sky Sanctuary.

Speed Highway doesn't have this as much and probably has the best use of the drift move in any of the Unleashed-style games to date. Sort of weird considering it's Iizuka's baby modern City Escape is sorta 'bleh'. Even the remix is kinda half-hearted compared to the classic-mix.
 
I didn't say the whole games play themselves. They have long sections where yo don't do much. Boost sections in Unleashed and Colors were terrible, and pretty much anything involving rail grinding. Generations moved away from those shitty boost segments for the most part.

What is a boost section? I boost almost all the time, there are no dedicated boost sections. Some sections where you can breathe for a short while are welcome imo. Also the sidesteo sections are fine by me as long as they stay short and are not too frequent, they are making the game a bit more varied.

Regarding Sonic 06: What part of what I was saying is wron? The bugs being hardly game-breaking or that they are far from Sonic 06's worst problems?
 
I didn't say the whole games play themselves. They have long sections where yo don't do much. Boost sections in Unleashed and Colors were terrible, and pretty much anything involving rail grinding. Generations moved away from those shitty boost segments for the most part.

I've gotta agree with this, too. The boost sections of Unleashed were enjoyable but I feel like they weren't quite as refined as the boost sections in Generations.

And I don't care what anyone says, but Rooftop Run was a blast.

Laughtrey said:
It's not even sonic. The skill ceiling is insanely high and it doesn't look or feel anything like Sonic 1-2-3.
Is it supposed to or something? And why on earth would you complain about the skill ceiling being raised?
 
Rooftop Run (Generations, I find the Unleashed one runs too long) is the modern day Chemical Plant Zone, as far as I'm concerned. Tons of fun, lets Sonic go real fucking fast in the best ways possible, has a fantastic look to it, and the music will go down in history.
 
I thought Generations was an unimpressive mess that mostly played itself.

Aside from the 16-bit glory years and the novelty and visual splendour of SA, has there been any decent Sonic action really?
 
Regarding Sonic 06: What part of what I was saying is wron? The bugs being hardly game-breaking or that they are far from Sonic 06's worst problems?
Everything about Sonic 2006, right down to the poorly-told and executed DBZ-esque narrative which ends up affecting what your level objectives are, characterization, level design, the load times, and everyone's gameplay were Sonic 2006's worst problems.

Unless you changed the game in its entirety, that game cannot be salvaged in any respect. Not via any mod.
And some of the bugs do force you to die and restart the level because some of the boss AI is ridiculous. Some of the glitches are game-breaking!

And in some cases, the glitches enhanced the game. I could skip the entire billiards puzzle if I wanted to because of the pass through door glitch. Or the game just became incredibly entertaining or it drove people to madness.
 
If it's anywhere near as good as Generations I'll have a blast with it, despite Generations being a lot shorter than I hoped it would be, it is still the most fun I've had with a 3D sonic game.
 
There's the cursing again. It's not precisely *just* holding one button and pressing another but its as automatic as it can get. (Well, no, they could go back to the way Sonic & the Secret Rings controlled Sonic's forward movement for you; that would be way more automatic.) My point still stands, there's not much to that stage than boosting, jumping, performing the homing attack, boosting again. It's cool to watch but painfully dull to play.

then you are blind, dumb and stupid.

There is jumping, drifting, quick stepping, stomping, sliding, trick moves, boosting and homing attacking in that video. All done with different combinations of buttons and with hair trigger reflexes.

You are doing nothing close to just holding down a button and occasionally jumping/homing attack.
 
then you are blind, dumb and stupid.

There is jumping, drifting, quick stepping, stomping, sliding, trick moves, boosting and homing attacking in that video. All done with different combinations of buttons and with hair trigger reflexes.

You are doing nothing close to just holding down a button and occasionally jumping/homing attack.
I'm blind, dumb and stupid? :lol

Anyway, you're missing my point entirely. I'm not in the business of wasting my time with people on the Internet so don't worry about it buddy. :)
 
The bugs are the least problems of Sonic 06. They are annoying, but hardly game breaking. The base gameplay is slow and boring, most characters suck extremely hard, the mach speed sections are unfairly laid out and control like crap, loading times are annoying, the overworld is a barren, boring, embarassingly bad place to be in, many level designs suck, changing characters in between a level is a supremely bad idea, the controls are stiff and don't adapt well to the faster characters (like Sonic) - which still are slow. I just think that the choice to incorporate so many different characters lead to a drain in ressources to optimize the gameplay of the one character who counts, Sonic.

I take it you haven't played the PS3 version? It's really really glitchy to the point that the 360 version looks competent by comparison. But you're mostly right though, even if you fix all of the bugs that game is still a horrible mess!
 
yeah i mean imagine if the classic sonic games introduced some way of getting instant speed with no risk that let you just plow through enemies

pic1548807_md.jpg

So true, so true.
 
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