Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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PaintTinJr said:
Where is your monolithic assertion coming from? Is there proof of that? because the XsX photo of the chip looks like it has a 'fabric' moat (from my view) consistent with chiplet PC setup and fabric in Vega was the start of AMD unifying their interconnect technology for going forward. l interference, allowing them to push higher bandwidths.
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On the subject of RT in graphics, what people need to understand is that all game developers had honed their skills to bake those artfully crafted lights and shadow maps into the game levels till now. They have been doing this for years and all the optimizations were for the betterment for these skills. Now the static lights and even interactive ones can be ray traced and have changing shadows, and they use a hybrid solution for it which is really new compared to what they have used to.

For the first crop of games, the baked lights and shadows were better and turning on RT seemed to lower quality, but that is due to two reasons, first and foremost, the gamers are used to one thing (old methods) which is actually not how it would occur in real life situations but still they are used to it so, switching back and fort they tend to prefer the old and know rather than new and unknown even though it is more a representation of how light actually behaves. Secondly, the games are still developed from the ground up with the trusted old methods and RT is only tacked on as an afterthought so the game art rarely shine with the RT light and shadows, so these games are not actually good representations of RT tech, actually not even passable ones since hybrid method leaves only some effects for RT, or as an additive solution, not completely based on RT.

The games which will feature RT with development based on RT from the ground up are going to be the games that will wow us. I'm not talking about complete ray marched games like Minecraft RTX, I'm talking about games which still use hybrid rendering but developed with RT in mind from the beginning, levels and game art shaped by RT as the center not afterthought, these games will be the next gen leap in graphics.
 
ethomaz said:
He was caught in another lie.

Not surprise everybody realized that when he made the claim lol
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What lie? Standard doesn't mean always, it means most of the games. If you would have a list of games running at 30fps, 60fps and 120fps. The 60fps list would be largest, hence the standard.
 
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FranXico said:
Most games come from third parties, Microsoft cannot make promises for them.
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DaGamez said:
He can really only talk about MGS to begin with. It's possible they shoot for 60, doing so would make it easier to scale games (you always have that 30 option as a fall back).
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He knows what games are in the pipeline and what they are targeting. So it's indeed up to the studios but he has inside knowledge on what they want to do.
 
rntongo said:
1.) MSFT's approach to eliminating I/O bottlenecks is through HW & SW. PS5's is primarily through hardware. Sony doesn't want any CPU overhead. And that's the clear advantage with the PS5 approach; zero CPU overhead. The advantage with MSFT's is they can continuously improve their algorithm runtime and actual performance to lower the CPU overhead while improving the actual I/O performance. MSFT is using their software expertise to do some impressive stuff.
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What's with the assumption Sony haven't also put emphasis on eliminating IO bottlenecks in their software stack? I don't get why this narrative keeps popping up.
No amount of software tweaking will all you to skip calculations done on the CPU, either. A mature software solution running on a CPU won't compete will a hardware accelerator, and there's no reason why a hardware accelerated solution couldn't also include some CPU software based processing in it's pipeline, too.

There's low level and high level access and game-makers can choose whichever flavour they want - but it's the new I/O API that allows developers to tap into the extreme speed of the new hardware. The concept of filenames and paths is gone in favour of an ID-based system which tells the system exactly where to find the data they need as quickly as possible. Developers simply need to specify the ID, the start location and end location and a few milliseconds later, the data is delivered. Two command lists are sent to the hardware - one with the list of IDs, the other centring on memory allocation and deallocation - i.e. making sure that the memory is freed up for the new data
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That sounds like a radical new approach to IO API. The implication that Microsoft has somehow focussed on software while Sony on hardware just isn't the reality of what's happening.

The neat doubling of a raw (and unimpressive for PCIe4.0) 2.4GB/s to 4.8GB/s smells of using a best-case BCPack ~50% compression figure to me.
I don't think it's typical, but typical of a best case scenario.
Sony's less than doubling and less precise 8-9GB/s seems typical considering Kraken and their 5.5GB/s starting point.
22GB/s will be best case scenario decompressing only simple vertex type data.

But in my opinion focussing on sequential read is old paradigm and it's going to be the random read numbers and latency that will be wildly different between the two consoles. The extra channels, queues and hardware offloading will in my opinion make PS5 more than doubly quick in the kind of discrete real-time asset streaming capability.
Sequential reads only really help for initial loads of contiguous data bundles.

PS5 first-party open world stuff has the potential to be next level. It's telling that developers of all stripes are more excited about IO and CPU than GPU at the moment.

PS5's focus on hardware accelerators will likely leave the CPU with more free capacity for game specific calculation in real terms, despite its lower clock.
It's basically the paradigm Apple have taken that have historically kept their chips performing better than the generics.

I'll be surprised if PS5 is cheaper than XSX.
 
BadBreathOfTheWild said:
The extra channels, queues and hardware offloading will in my opinion make PS5 more than doubly quick in the kind of discrete real-time asset streaming capability.
Sequential reads only really help for initial loads of contiguous data bundles.
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When was it ever confirmed how many channels the SSD in the XSX have? Or the number of queues? Or whether or not there is hardware offloading?
 
Stuart360 said:
He's actually very intelligent, but clearly biased to the PC. It makes me cringe sometimes when John will say something complimentary about consoles, and you can see Alex's face cringe, or he begrudgingly agrees. Or Alex himself will say something complimentary about a console, but then straight away explain why PC is still better at that thing etc, and i'm a PC gamer lol.
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That's why he can't be in this team. I never felt that someone of the other two is biased.
 
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TBiddy said:
When was it ever confirmed how many channels the SSD in the XSX have? Or the number of queues? Or whether or not there is hardware offloading?
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I doubt Sony has done much to optimize for random reads, if so, there's no way an off the shelf SSD could ever be compatible. The 7GB/s gen4 x4's that are coming soon aren't that performant in that area. If you really focus on random speeds you lose compatibility with PC drives.

Edit: Unless, Sony has been very disingenuous regarding the SSD upgrade path, with upgrades being limited to some non-standard models by a specific manufacturer etc. Otherwise, they are limited to the performance profile of the drives available on the market (these controllers are already in the wild and benched).
 
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thurnishaleygw said:
It is, 'cause, as FranXico FranXico said, he is no ignorant at all, but his bias is so overwhelming that it gets annoying fast.
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I remember that he doubted hardware RT on consoles. That moment I thought that this is wishful thinking more than a prediction. This is what I felt from his writing style. In the end, he was both biased and wrong in my eyes.
Then I have seen his Witcher 2 pc video. lol.
 
DrKeo said:
XSX is monolithic, a single peice of silicon:
XboxSeriesXTech_Inline2.jpg
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If that is the context/abstraction level you are meaning, then you and I are talking at cross purposes.

In that diagram I presume you believe that the turquoise blocks are the 4C/8C CPUs, and are then suggesting that the additional chiplet components expected in the CCX modules isn't in those block on the XsX, but in the space or a different layer, yes?

I on the other hand, believe those blocks to contain the L3 caches also like a chiplet
 
TBiddy said:
When was it ever confirmed how many channels the SSD in the XSX have? Or the number of queues? Or whether or not there is hardware offloading?
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In the PC space, SSD speed generally scales with channels. It's making use of parallelisation. 2.4GB/s raw sequential read out of a PCIe4.0 drive is low end. There are PCIe3.0 NVMes that beat that. I can't see how XSX SSD could have more than 4 channels and be that relatively "slow".

In my opinion, if XSX had hardware fixed function accelerators for IO the likes that PS5 has, they'd have mentioned it as part of Velocity Architecture. Remember, just having an SSD at all is 25% of what Velocity Architecture even is. Another 25% a more modest hardware decompression accelerator. The other 50% are software as far as I can tell. With one aspect being DirectStorage API, which I'm wondering whether it will be as radical as PS5's IO API considering the PC compatibility, and the other being an addition to AMD's Sampler Feedback to have another MIP level ready as a fall back if I've understood correctly. Being able to stream in part of a texture isn't unique to XSX from my understanding.
But if it's what I see as a best case of 4.8GB/s (BCPack 50%) vs an expected 8-9GB/s, that's the end of it as far as sequential performance goes. Sequential read mostly helping with initial load times due to how game data is generally stored.. The difference in random read streaming of assets—like a sound file, or even game world objects behind you as you turn to them—I think, will be even further apart.

For what it's worth, as we all have biases, I'm more excited about PS5 at the moment, but I'm also definitely spending my own money on an XSX. I think Microsoft are back on the right track now, and deserve to see the results of that. I'm also loving my Switch Lite and BotW at the moment, despite the name.
 
WhiteEagle said:
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Is this the new branding for SCE/WWS on games or is it movie related?

"PlayStation Studios" along with the logo and that nice music make for a much more concise and iconic branding for games. Will make for a nice ident on the initial start up of a game.

I'm hoping its for games....it's probably for movies. =/ xD

Edit: Just checked the YT description, its for games....yay!
 
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Audiophile said:
Is this the new branding for SCE/WWS on games or is it movie related?

"PlayStation Studios" along with the logo and that nice music make for a much more concise and iconic branding for games. Will make for a nice ident on the initial start up of a game.

I'm hoping its for games....it's probably for movies. =/ xD

Edit: Just checked the YT description, its for games....yay!
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It is for games. Every exclusive game after tLoU 2 and GoT will have such an intrk
 
Audiophile said:
Is this the new branding for SCE/WWS on games or is it movie related?

"PlayStation Studios" along with the logo and that nice music make for a much more concise and iconic branding for games. Will make for a nice ident on the initial start up of a game.

I'm hoping its for games....it's probably for movies. =/ xD

Edit: Just checked the YT description, its for games....yay!
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It's for games. At the yotube info-box they wrote "Introducing PlayStation Studios, the new brand name for all of your favorite exclusive PlayStation games. "

Edit: Ah, you still got it. :D

But... After this was released, it looks like something is happening soon(y).
 
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X-Fighter said:
What lie? Standard doesn't mean always, it means most of the games. If you would have a list of games running at 30fps, 60fps and 120fps. The 60fps list would be largest, hence the standard.
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What about this? Is this true too?

1. This is what MS want you to believe: From the official website
Quick Resume – A new feature powered by the technical capabilities and the innovative Xbox Velocity Architecture in Xbox Series X, Quick Resume enables players to seamlessly switch between multiple titles and resume instantly from where you last left off
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2. And here is the realily: 6/7 sec for switching between tittles.

 
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TBiddy said:
When was it ever confirmed how many channels the SSD in the XSX have? Or the number of queues? Or whether or not there is hardware offloading?
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if I'm not mistaken when they did their hardware specs unveiling they explained how managing the bandwidth of the SSD on the CPU would use "some number" of cores on the CPU, but their hardware made that around 10% of a single core (I assume this is because of the compression).

But how independent and transparent is the process?
 
Rusco Da Vino said:
What about this? Is this true too?

1. This is what MS what you to believe: From his official website
2. And here is the realily: 6/7 sec for switching between tittles.
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Well that's a whole other discussion, but you are aware that that's pure marketing talk, right? Just like the PS4 Pro is a 4K tv-gaming console... I mean that's just basic PR stuff that they use in commercials and on websites. What Greenberg said is different in my opinion, because that's directly answering to questions, via a personal account. I agree that he can be called out for it if he's wrong, but just because Valhalla is running at 30fps at least, doesn't mean that that's the standard.
 
X-Fighter said:
What lie? Standard doesn't mean always, it means most of the games. If you would have a list of games running at 30fps, 60fps and 120fps. The 60fps list would be largest, hence the standard.
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Are you real? :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy:

He made a claim about a standard that doesn't exists at all.
Devs are free to choose what they want.
 


If this is Sony's MCU statement who is their following game characters who fill the roles of:

Iron Man
Captain America
Hulk
Thor
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Spider-Man.....well that one is easy its Spider-Man
Captain Marvel
Iron Patriot
Ant-Man
The Wasp
Guardians of the Galaxy
etc
 
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TBiddy said:
When was it ever confirmed how many channels the SSD in the XSX have? Or the number of queues? Or whether or not there is hardware offloading?
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The XsX SSD controller is most likely the Phison E19T. This controller has 4 channels.

Further we know the velocity architecture consists of:
- SSD
- Hardware decompression block
- File system API
- Sampler Feedback Streaming

So it looks like there is no further hardware offloading than decompression.
 
ethomaz said:
Are you real? :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy:

He made a claim about a standard that doesn't exists at all.
Devs are free to choose what they want.
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I merely read it as "the most common", not necessarily as we force developers to have at least 60fps. Why would you? Were you really thinking that Microsoft was forcing developers to run their games at 60fps nothing more, nothing less?
 
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