CrustyBritches
Gold Member
That's not much of a bet. We need to have a performance mark. You were citing a Radeon VII and I'm saying less than Vega 64. For a month of Gaf's finest gold.
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SonGoku
Member
Yep but back then i was more optimistic, i expect 13TF max now, leaning more towards 12tf
What confused me however is that you implied that at the same TF count the console part would underperform compared to the discrete card. I haven't seen any evidence of that happening.
Edit: Radeon VII performance could come but due to more efficient rendering techniques featured on Navi and exploited on consoles.
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Evilms
Banned
Ex PlayStation America Boss Says Sony Is Well Positioned for Next-Gen but Will Face Exponentially Greater Competition
Former SCEA boss Jack Tretton said Sony is well position for next-gen as the current market leader, but will face much greater competition.
wccftech.com
JLMC469
Banned
Ex PlayStation America Boss Says Sony Is Well Positioned for Next-Gen but Will Face Exponentially Greater Competition
Former SCEA boss Jack Tretton said Sony is well position for next-gen as the current market leader, but will face much greater competition.
And water is wet
SonGoku
Member
new news new thread or nah?Ex PlayStation America Boss Says Sony Is Well Positioned for Next-Gen but Will Face Exponentially Greater Competition
Former SCEA boss Jack Tretton said Sony is well position for next-gen as the current market leader, but will face much greater competition.
bitbydeath
Member
Already exists.
Ex PlayStation America Boss Says Sony Is Well Positioned for Next-Gen but Will Face Exponentially Greater Competition
Sony officially made the first step towards the next-generation of consoles a few weeks ago when it unveiled a few key specifications of the upcoming PlayStation 5 (we’re pretty much sure it will be called that even though Sony didn’t actually reference it with this name yet). We know it will...
ethomaz
Banned
It is because the memory bandwidth... it will beat the X in some games that even more true with men overclock.
SonGoku
Member
which card?
ethomaz
Banned
RX 480...
SonGoku
Member
I asked just to be sure since i mentioned the RX 580 on that post as well.
Those games that outperform the X what do you attribute it to? CPU bottleneck?
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
This would be the bet. A Vega/1080/2060 tier card will have better performance than PS5.Going by the latest AdoredTV chart
RX 3090 60 CUs at 180W falls within the limits of what could be used on a console (The X equivalent part was 180W)
That would provide close to 14TF numbers though realistically i don't expect more than 13TF
SonGoku
Member
Ok GTX 1080 and Vega64 its on
Im a broke student with no digital money though, so maybe avatar bet instead?
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
No worries. Avatar bet it is. I might be using a 2060 just so I can fuck with the RT features on the side. Anything up to a month sounds good for duration.
SonGoku
Member
Ok 1 month
btw im still curious about your earlier post of console flops underperforming compared to their discrete cards counterparts at the same or less tf count, i think that has more to do with CPU bottleneck but im curious to read your take.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Hell yeah it will be fun. I'll give you something fucked up like Yamcha.
When you push RX 480 there is a 30% increase in peak draw for 6% increase in performance. You'll be pulling around 205W peak. If you have a card with decent memory clocks you can tweak until you find the pocket for best perf/watt. For FH4 my RX 480 has best perf/watt at 1125MHz core, 2135MHz mem. If I had a newer card that wasn't punished by a year of mining, I could get 2250MHz mem and a higher min. Cards are weird and I got there by starting at 1305MHz with a -12-14% power limit and stepping down the voltage.
RX 580 pushes Polaris out of it's comfort zone, especially in boost mode. You can see it in the perf/watt charts. That's why I mentioned 180W is on the high side compared to a tuned/power capped 155W RX 480 with higher memory bandwidth. The honey is in the memory configuration. Consoles will be power capped with strict tdp while the same card on PC you can let loose and get superior results with better cooling at the expense of perf/watt.
There are some games the X1X is better than a RX 480, some games it's not. Sometimes that is a result of being CPU bound(TW3 Novigrad) sometimes it's not.
SonGoku
Member
But consider the X and 580 clock higher than the RX 480 because of process yield improvements
I just don't see the evidence to backup the claim that a discrete card will outperform the console equivalent at the same TF count barring other bottlecks
To put it simply i don't think the X GPU has less performance than a RX 580 clocked to hit exact 6TF..
I agree however that higher clocked discrete counterparts will outperform the console.
In which games do you suspect to be the case?
Dont get me wrong, I don't believe your theory but if there is some merit to it im curious to see it.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
That's your argument, not mine. I was addressing the node transition and similarities between 14nm FinFET claims and 7nm claims(2.25x vs 1.8x perf/watt, respectively). I see where Adored is getting his estimates and he is going by AMD pr numbers and overly optimistic imo. That's even after he adjusted the charts for higher consumption. He says as much in his video.
My comments have to do with the total system power consumption for a console. That's how we end up 3 product tiers apart with our estimates.
Once again, that's your argument not mine. I stated RX 480 tuned to 156W peak gives you 4k/31fps at X1X settings in FH4, and my memory oc's like shit and it's been punished with thousands of hours of mining.
---
I think PS5 is Navi 10(non-XT), not Navi 20.
SonGoku
Member
Ah ok good, though you implied that because the X GPU its fine tuned to consume less power its inferior to a 6TF discrete polaris card.
So you think either 48CU or 52CU?
I go for 56CU or 60CU depending on yields
Alright its on, add that to the bet.
bitbydeath
Member
I think you’re going to be wrong.
1. Ray Tracing is expected to be for Navi 20 and not 10.
2. PS5 was rumoured for early 2020 barring hardware availability. Navi 20 isn’t available til next year. The CPU and Navi 10 come out this year which makes neither of them the holdup.
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SonGoku
Member
Wanna jump on the bet?
if we're wrong
CrustyBritches
shall make us matching avatars to wear the shame
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Add it as Navi 10(non-xt) vs Navi 20. Sounds good.
Nice. If you win I'll do 2 weeks on each avatar you guys choose. lol.Wanna jump on the bet?
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bitbydeath
Member
Wanna jump on the bet?
Sure. Just for the Navi type though
Von Hugh
Member
Let them dream, seeing them eating crows is entertaining for the rest of us.
ANIMAL1975
Member
pawel86ck
Banned
I dont believe 480RX or 580RX is enough to match xbox x results. I remember videos from Digital Foundry when they have said their 580RX couldnt match xbox x results(for example in their far cry 5 video). People should realize the same hardware on consoles is used with better results. I will quote Digital Foundry:
On top of that GPU in xbox x is not 480RX / 580RX equivalent besides TFLOPS numbers, it's customized chip in order to provide even better performance. No polaris GPU on PC market has dx12 processor build into it like xbox x GPU, and improvements listed below
Xbox X GPU vs Polaris
MS and AMD has improved xbox x GPU to the point it can render 2x as many pixels even compared to PS4P GPU, while TFLOPS numbers doesn't suggest so drastic difference.
What xbox x is doing in certain games like wolfenstein 2 is way above 480/580 results.
If PS5 will have vega64 hardware equivalent then on console it should provide performance closer to radeon 7.
SonGoku
Member
Same but remember CPU might be a botleneck.
Ar¢tos
Member
But you can have both Reram + Nvme SSD + HDD.
Because apparently Nvme isn't fast enough for some people, there are plans for a hybrid nvme ssd with reram cache for faster speed and lower latency. Get one of those soldered on the board + one normal 7200rpm hdd, and you get a fast cache and an ultra fast cache (never gonna happen, I know!).
pawel86ck
Banned
Yes, xbox x GPU is CPU limited in many games, but when people talk about GPU performance, they shouldn't talk about CPU bottleneck scenarios.
I think people in general just underestimate what console hardware can do. I still remember gta 5 on ps3, and it's absurd to think game like that would run on PC with similar amount of ram (256 MB system ram + 256 MB GPU VRAM) and GPU power (7800-7600 GTX mix). If PS5 will have vega64 hardware equivalent it will match radeon 7 / 1080ti performance thanks to console optimizations PC hardware simply cant get.
Ellery
Member
I am using google/microsoft translate and I think it means more like "Nvidia is preparing an RTX 2070 Ti to counter Navi".
Ok lets brainstorm a bit here and make a lot of assumptions (this is purely my speculation and there is no real evidence for any of my speculation).
- We know that AMD is coming out with multiple Navi graphics cards in a couple of months (basically confirmed, heavily hinted at by AMD).
- Nvidia is currently on the RTX 20 series 12nm lineup and there is quite a big gap between the RTX 2070 and RTX 2080 (like 25-30%)
- Nvidia released X70 Ti cards in the past and they generally were MUCH closer to the X80 part than they were to the X70 part.
- There is also a big price difference between the RTX 2070 and RTX 2080 (499$ and 699$ MSRP)
- Depending on what games and resolution you are testing the Vega VII is around the performance of the RTX 2080, maybe slightly slower (5-10% if you look at release reviews with immature drivers)
- We know (confirmed by Lisa Su) that the upcoming 2019 Navi cards are mainstream products and aim at a lower price than the $699 Vega VII.
- We also had leaked PCBs which suggest a smaller die around the same size of the RX 580 (232mm²) which is significantly smaller than the Vega VII 331mm².
- Now we are coming to the part where we are asking the question and looking for answers. And the first question is what performance could Navi 7nm reach on 232mm²?
- Is it just wishful thinking to hope that a mainstream Navi part can come close to the Vega VII in terms of gaming performance?
- Does Navi have architectural improvements that make it much better than all previous GCN iterations to a point where it is hard to believe?
- Or are we just in for a price/performance mainstream lineup that is looking to combat the RTX 2060 and GTX 1660 Ti / 1660 / 1650 at a lower price for the same/slightly better performance?
- Would AMD even want to slaughter their Vega VII sales if they COULD make a card that is cheaper/nearly as fast/has better perf/watt or are they aimed way lower in terms of perf than the Vega VII?
- If Navi was a gigantic leap in architecture that would be very good for next gen consoles because you would get better gaming performance at lower TFLOPS.
- ^(Think of it more like having Nvidia gaming performance of the RTX 2070 which is 7.5 TFLOPs compare to the Vega 56 which has 10.5 TFLOPs, but the RTX 2070 is way faster)
- Does Nvidia expect Navis performance to be above the RTX 2070 so they have to release the 2070 Ti? Or is it something that they do anyways to fill in the huge gap?
- How would Navi impact the pricing structure of Nvidia and the RTX 20 series products? I mean Navi won't be able to reach RTX 2080 or RTX 2080 Ti performance. That is just wishful thinking.
- ^I take this as a given because Lisa Su specifically said that we are in for Mainstream priced products and if AMD could beat the 2080 they would price the card accordingly.
So where does that leave us?
My personal estimation would be that Navi is aimed at the midrange market of 1660Ti/RTX2060 performance levels just shy of the RTX 2070. I'd guess that AMD wants to have better price/perf ratio cards for the mass market. Lets say RTX 2060 performance for $279 and 1660 Ti performance for $229.
What does this mean for next gen consoles?
Well the main thing to look out for is the power draw, clockspeeds, heat, TFLOPs and gaming performance of the upcoming Navi products. I am certain that one of these chips that we are about to see is pretty close to what we will be getting in the next gen consoles. Think of it like the reveal of the 7000 series of AMD when we got the 7790/7850/7870 and the PS4/Xbox chip was somewhere between those low-end/midrange cards. That happened like 1+ year in advance to the PS4/Xbox One release aswell. I think it is a pretty good indication of what we will be getting.
What we should hope for : Navi having architectural improvements over Vega where a 10TF Navi card is faster than a 10TF Vega card. Good perf/watt. Low heat.
If AMD could manage to do all that then we could have a pretty high clocked GPU inside the next gen consoles that even if it does come at lower than hoped for TFLOPs it still packs good gaming performance.
Worst case scenario : Navi is just slightly slightly better than Vega. High power draw. Lower than hoped for clockspeeds and is hot.
Lets just hope that this won't happen.
ResilientBanana
Member
With an E3 event planned one would hope that they plan on destroying the Radeon VII’s performance. They are on their high horse with 7nm and if they can’t beat their competitor whose at 12nm they’re in for a world of hurt when nVidia gets there.
Ellery
Member
If that is what you are hoping for then I have VERY BAD news for you for all of 2019.
I basically can guarantee you that (2019 Navi) products won't be able to destroy the Vega VII and RTX 2080.
Maybe the bigger 2020 Navi20 produts will be able to do that.
In order for the Navi10 (232mm² rumored) product to be better than the Vega VII and RTX 2080 AMD would need to make the biggest leap in architecture in their 50 year history.
ResilientBanana
Member
No, I'm realistic. I only expect AMD to truly compete at mid-range and hopefully they will be priced as such. Navi 20 is too late in my opinion. nVidia's cards will be just on the horizon at that point.
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Ellery
Member
Well yeah that is what I said. I expect AMD to compete at mid range (RTX 2060 / 1660 Ti) with their Navi10 2019 lineup.
What do you think is mid-range?
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We know from the board leaks that Navi 10 has a 256-bit GDDR6 memory controller. It's 1250 MHz x 8 = 10,000Mb/s. Memory likely downclocked (or not reported correctly) just like the core and we'll see 14Gbps on retail boards.
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ethomaz
Banned
AMD confirmed in their financial that Radeon VII Vega 7nm will be the only high-end graphic card to be launch this year... Navi will replace the segment that Polaris sells today.
If I have to guess I believe AMD will release at least three Navi products this year:
$250 Navi between RTX 2070 and RTX 2080 perf. (compete with the rumored new RTX 2070ti)
$200 Navi between RTX 2060 and RTX 2070 perf.
$150 Navi with perf. around RX 480/580.
High-end Navi to replace Vega 7nm only next year like AMD said.
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ethomaz
Banned
The leak has Navi with 256bits GDDR6 @ 320GB/s.
Seems to be the middle Navi ES... it will have a lower one and higher one I guess.
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Ellery
Member
Yup. Though I think your expectations are way too high. A $250 Navi card won't be faster than an RTX 2070.
Well first and foremost I simply think that AMD can't pull it off and secondly I think that if AMD had a card that could compete with a $500-$800 Nvidia products they wouldn't price it at half the price.
ethomaz
Banned
You did have a good point.
Perhaps Navi $250-300 will be between RTX 2060 and RTX 2070 and the higher Navi will be priced at $400-500?
Ellery
Member
Yeah that'd be more likely though like I said earlier my expectations are low and I think that Navi won't be better than the RTX 2070 so we do get cheap products that compete with the 1660 Ti and 2060
Fake
Member
So, no HBM after all. Kinda expected take into consideration the HBM high price.
ethomaz
Banned
Navi was announced to use GDDR6 since begining.
It is a consumer chip part of Radeon VII family to replace the old Polaris... not a Pro/Enterprise chip that should have advantage using HBM (the actual Radeom Instinct series).
BTW GDDR6 today is way cheaper than HBM2.
Maybe in two or three years we will be back to HBM3 for consumer cards.
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Fake
Member
True true, but I take the last powerful GPU in count. Dunno if the second version of nextbox could do it as well.
No doub. HBM3 maybe in that AMD event near to the year end. To be honest the GPU side is a easy task for leaks by now. I actually more curious about the CPU side.
edit: By that twitter picture can we guess the TF?
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ethomaz
Banned
GCN is modular so you can choose the Navi core and the HBM memory controller in the semi-custom business if you want... to be fair there each one of the modules below can be choose or changed:
So you can have the Core at GCN 5.1 but the Render Beckend of the GCN 4.0... the memory controller can be either too.
AMD just choose this time GDDR6 for Navi consumer cards... maybe a Navi Pro next year come with HBM2 again.
About the TFs... using the clock you can draw some possibilities but all of them will be based in how much CU/SPs this Navi card has enabled... so I won't bother until we have more info.
ResilientBanana
Member
I was assuming up to 2070. The 2070 TI + would be where I would draw the line. I feel like AMD would give the 2070 line up a run for it's money, but only being able to compete with the 2060 would be somewhat sad.
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