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[MasterCornholio]

Not really true.. it's simply tuned to allow frequencies of the GPU/CPU that are not possible to fully sustain across all workloads.

Code that is "optimized" would push these limits really.. that's really just a separate topic.

Going through the road to PS5 the variable clocks were implemented to achieve a better efficiency and cooling system. Which is partly why performance has been pretty good for the system. In theory it's already downclocking in the worst cases but it doesn't seem to be causing any problems for the games on the system.

Pretty interesting how it all works out.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Going through the road to PS5 the variable clocks were implemented to achieve a better efficiency and cooling system. Which is partly why performance has been pretty good for the system. In theory it's already downclocking in the worst cases but it doesn't seem to be causing any problems for the games on the system.

Pretty interesting how it all works out.

Yeah I think it's a great advancement... always sounded cool but we hadn't really seen the results yet.. and well.. the results are excellent.

I think it's almost entirely just advantageous to everyone involved.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Yeah I think it's a great advancement... always sounded cool but we hadn't really seen the results yet.. and well.. the results are excellent.

I think it's almost entirely just advantageous to everyone involved.

Smart Shift also seems pretty useful. Pretty cool how a CPU that isn't doing much work can give some power to the GPU to help it out. This should help with games that are GPU bound.

 

[kyliethicc]

I'm guessing that in theory a game could have some really bad code that causes that to happen. It's why I believe Cerny mentioned that "worst case game". A title that's properly optimized shouldn't have those issues.

X = workload (caused by game)
Y = clock speed
X*Y=Z = power

on PS4, both X and Z vary, while Y was fixed.
on PS5, both X and Y vary, while Z is fixed.

 

[PaintTinJr]

If I'm reading you right - this is pretty much assuming we'd have an analytical way to represent arbitrary data-sets. I mean, if that existed, we can throw away all existing compression methods today.
Last I checked - the best numerical methods start to seriously break down at around 1bit per 2d coordinate + value.

Anyway, Epic's own data around this(what has been pieced together so far anyway) suggests they haven't broken any compression barriers here, but have a method that allows a fast search through the data-set to what's relevant at a given view (and presumably temporally coherent, so they keep per-frame changes down).
Note that they still store explicit textures for all the data also - something that should also be unnecessary with the encoding you propose.

You make some really good points.

On the basis of your compression comment it does make my all encompassing hypothetical analytical encoding seems like a pipe dream for such large signals; and at best guess - if it worked anything like what I said - I would be a factor of 1024 out for data transfer (for the equations) if comparing to a block (in a compressed texture) to an 8k encoded channel, The 8K would need encoded as block equation pairs, which even if each 8K scan was only 2/3rds filling model space - empty blocks - and if they used Fourier(Jpeg like) for the encoding, so that it would allow equations to be reduced to less terms(dropping higher frequencies) at further distance in the frustum - when integrating - it would still be a unrealistic more processing than my initial hypothetical suggestion .

It is interesting that they still store a texture (presumably without the mips). I wonder if they use that to bilinear/anisotropic filter the resulting nanite shaded pixel at foreground distances - where 64 texels(or less) would be needed for the calculation, or whether it is just used for texturing where the original texture would be superior and selected for texturing.to provide better IQ than what the nanite solution would have. I suspect It would also allow them to be slightly more aggressive with their reduction of foreground data (streamed in for nanite), while getting a bandwidth benefit from the massive compression ratios the hardware accelerated decompression solutions are offering on console - and supposedly this year with Nvidia RTX.

 

[Rudius]

I wonder when PSVR2 will be announced... I'm currently playing Dirt 5 and the camera options and handling makes it clear it was made by the guys from Evolution; it's a good game, but would be amazing in VR.

 

[PaintTinJr]

"When that worst case game arrives, it will run at a lower clock speed. But not too much lower, to reduce power by 10% it only takes a couple of percent reduction in frequency, so I'd expect any downclocking to be pretty minor," Cerny told Digital Foundry"

That's from the horse's mouth.

That is what he said, but without the part from the interview about how optimisation for the PS5 will be different - where power saved for the same work will increase performance, because of the variable clock, or will allow that saved power budget to be re-used for more work to be done - you don't give the full picture, and conveniently leave out the reason why it is a far superior design choice IMO

 

[MasterCornholio]

That is what he said, but without the part from the interview about how optimisation for the PS5 will be different - where power saved for the same work will increase performance, because of the variable clock, or will allow that saved power budget to be re-used for more work to be done - you don't give the full picture, and conveniently leave out the reason why it is a far superior design choice IMO

I remember Cerny said this.

All things considered the change to a variable frequency approach will show significant gains for PlayStation gamers.

So those variable clocks are definitely positive for the system to have. Unless it's just marketing speak that is but I doubt it based on the results that we have seen.

 

[3liteDragon]

"When that worst case game arrives, it will run at a lower clock speed. But not too much lower, to reduce power by 10% it only takes a couple of percent reduction in frequency, so I'd expect any downclocking to be pretty minor," Cerny told Digital Foundry"

That's from the horse's mouth.

I could but I've been over this several times already and I'll just end up getting thread banned at minimum so read again what Cerny says and take particular notice of the first sentence, then it becomes very obvious what the deal is.

In short, the idea is that developers may learn to optimise in a different way, by achieving identical results from the GPU but doing it faster via increased clocks delivered by optimising for power consumption. "The CPU and GPU each have a power budget, of course the GPU power budget is the larger of the two," adds Cerny. "If the CPU doesn't use its power budget - for example, if it is capped at 3.5GHz - then the unused portion of the budget goes to the GPU. That's what AMD calls SmartShift. There's enough power that both CPU and GPU can potentially run at their limits of 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz, it isn't the case that the developer has to choose to run one of them slower."

PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive

On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …

www.eurogamer.net

The minor downclocking he's talking about is constantly changing every frame within that 30 frame/60 frame window, so in one frame the GPU clock speed can be 2.17GHz and then all of a sudden in the next two or three frames it's back at 2.23GHz (REMEMBER, THIS IS ALL HAPPENING WITHIN MILLISECONDS). You're not gonna even notice a single difference or anything while you're playing the game since all this power shifting (SmartShift is only responsible for that, not downclocking, there's a separate mechanism in the APU for downclocking tasks) and frequency changing is happening within milliseconds.

Q: How much of a difference (in broad terms) does smart shift make to the performance and power efficiency of Renoir?

A: Our SmartShift technology allows users to harness the combined power of our Ryzen 4000 Mobile Processors, Radeon Graphics, and the latest AMD Radeon Software Adrenalin 2020 edition together to deliver an improved computing experience. With SmartShift we can automatically shift power between the Ryzen processor and Radeon graphics as needed enabling the CPU to perform faster during CPU intensive workloads and inversely the graphics chip during graphics intensive workloads. We do this seamlessly to the operating system and via the Infinity Fabric architecture in real-time and within 2ms of whatever the workload demands. As for how much of a difference it makes, we have seen up to a 14 percent performance increase with AMD SmartShift but it varies from app to app/game to game.

This is the first time (I believe) we have seen an actual number on just how fast AMD's SmartShift is. With a response time of under 2 ms, this would make the dynamic system incredibly responsive to pretty much all scenarios and would feel real-time for all practical applications. Frank also mentioned that they have seen up to a 14% increase, on average, from Smartshift in apps, which should set the upper limit of what users can expect from the feature (although this has been covered before and is not new information). 14% off the back of dynamic power shifting is a huge performance gain that an AMD customer is essentially getting for free and one that I am sure will be very welcome for gamers on the move.

Interview from May 2020 with AMD's Chief Architect of Gaming.

Interview: AMD's Chief Architect Of Gaming 'Frank Azor' On Ryzen 4000 Series Mobility CPUs, Smart Shift And The 'AMD Advantage'

Frank Azor, AMD's Chief Architect of Gaming talks about the AMD Advantage, Ryzen 4000 series processors, SmartShift and more.

wccftech.com

SmartShift has an impressive 2 ms latency, meaning that the power shifting is CONSTANTLY happening before a SINGLE frame is even finished being rendered (it takes 33.3ms/16.7ms to finish rendering one frame on 30FPS/60FPS), which means the frequency's also CONSTANTLY changing just as fast within milliseconds as well.

 

[yewles1]

I remember Cerny said this.



So those variable clocks are definitely positive for the system to have. Unless it's just marketing speak that is but I doubt it based on the results that we have seen.

"We don't use the actual temperature of the die, as that would cause two types of variance between PS5s," explains Mark Cerny. "One is variance caused by differences in ambient temperature; the console could be in a hotter or cooler location in the room. The other is variance caused by the individual custom chip in the console, some chips run hotter and some chips run cooler. So instead of using the temperature of the die, we use an algorithm in which the frequency depends on CPU and GPU activity information. That keeps behaviour between PS5s consistent."

Inside the processor is a power control unit, constantly measuring the activity of the CPU, the GPU and the memory interface, assessing the nature of the tasks they are undertaking. Rather than judging power draw based on the nature of your specific PS5 processor, a more general 'model SoC' is used instead. Think of it as a simulation of how the processor is likely to behave, and that same simulation is used at the heart of the power monitor within every PlayStation 5, ensuring consistency in every unit.

"The behaviour of all PS5s is the same," says Cerny. "If you play the same game and go to the same location in the game, it doesn't matter which custom chip you have and what its transistors are like. It doesn't matter if you put it in your stereo cabinet or your refrigerator, your PS5 will get the same frequencies for CPU and GPU as any other PS5."

PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive

On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …

www.eurogamer.net

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I wonder when PSVR2 will be announced... I'm currently playing Dirt 5 and the camera options and handling makes it clear it was made by the guys from Evolution; it's a good game, but would be amazing in VR.

When there is enough ps5s in the wild. They are making ps5s as fast as they can, making psvr2 now would just be a distraction.

 

[Ptarmiganx2]

Guerrilla may not be interested to make no Killzone games (i'm not super big fan of the franchise tbh, but yeah sucks for fans), but maybe Insomniac is interested to make a new Resistance game?



I'm not a resistance fan either, but i'm always open mind, could be interesting.

Please let it happen. Resistance was one of my favorites from the PS3 era.

 

[isoRhythm]

Isn't one of MLID's whiteboard topics "AMD vs MS"? I'm really curious about that, regardless how much of it turns out true or not.

I think that might be referring to the surface line of tablet-laptops. AMD was upset that MS didnt push the new ryzen 4000 mobile chips hard enough and threatened to reduce the Xbox Series SOC wafer availability for MS. The wafers come from TSMC but AMD is basically buddy buddy with them and can shift wafer availability around.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Riky does not understand hardware and neither did DF, it was during Richards sustained Terraflop phase, at least Richard is learning and does not mention TF anymore, he calls it console horsepower now lol

Personally I think Cerny over engineered the solution, you can see this easily when someone unplugged the cooler on ps5 while running a Ps5 game at full tilt, and ps5 kept going at full performance for a long time as the die heated up.

They could of saved on smart shift I think, not even needed, but that is conjecture. At the end of teh day it does not matter anymore, ps5 does not give a shit and tears through games anyway.....

I wondered whether Smart Shift was really Cerny's solution for running heavy SIMD instructions like AVX on the CPU.

Where MS provided two discrete CPU frequency modes, Cerny lowered clocks a tad and added smart shift to balance power distribution and keep everything in budget.

Does that sound reasonable?

P.S. I always enjoy reading your posts geordiemp so thanks for your consistently informed and insightful contributions.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

This is another reason why Sony is so close with Epic Games, and why it makes sense to buy as much shares as possible from Epic Games / Tencent:





Although Sony has its own movie engines as this dynamic adjustment was introduced into Atom View engine first but Sony helped Epic Games integrate it into Unreal Engine which is widely used by movie makers:

 

[LiquidRex]

This guy makes some good points on the VRR fiasco.... If it matters to anyone here.

Some will see VRR as a mess, some won't care....but it's here if interested.

 

[LiquidRex]

This is another reason why Sony is so close with Epic Games, and why it makes sense to buy as much shares as possible from Epic Games / Tencent:





Although Sony has its own movie engines as this dynamic adjustment was introduced into Atom View engine first but Sony helped Epic Games integrate it into Unreal Engine which is widely used by movie makers:

Does Sony own the rights to this technology... For example if this tech is say used in the development of say a Microsoft blockbuster title, will they have to pay Sony a premium.

 

[FranXico]

Does Sony own the rights to this technology... For example if this tech is say used in the development of say a Microsoft blockbuster title, will they have to pay Sony a premium.

Not that uncommon. Devs that use Havok for physics (including Sony first party) pay a royalty to MS.

 

[mitchman]

Although Sony has its own movie engines as this dynamic adjustment was introduced into Atom View engine first but Sony helped Epic Games integrate it into Unreal Engine which is widely used by movie makers:

I know you like to say this, but is there any actual evidence to support this or is it just your theory?

 

[LiquidRex]

WO2021002939 BLURRING TO IMPROVE VISUAL QUALITY IN AN AREA OF INTEREST IN A FRAME

A system and method for utilizing machine learning techniques to modify a visual quality of an area within a frame of video is provided. The method may include receiving one or more video frames of a video stream, receiving a target asset and generating, via a machine learning model, a frame...

patentscope.wipo.int

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

It's nice to want things.

 

[MasterCornholio]

It's probably not what people expect though. I kind of doubt that a company like Take2 (for example) are going to release all their games day 1 on gamepass. If anything it's probably older games that will come to the service. Not that there's anything bad with that since it will add more value to it. But publishers will not want to lose revenue from launch prices.

 

[onesvenus]

Although Sony has its own movie engines as this dynamic adjustment was introduced into Atom View engine first but Sony helped Epic Games integrate it into Unreal Engine which is widely used by movie makers:]

Bo, again, I know you want to link Sony and Epic as much as you can to imply there's some kind of stronger relationship (why?) but Atom View was developed by Nurulize.
They did a Siggraph presentation, where they showed their UE4 integration, in 2017.

It was not until 2019 that Sony bought the company. So no, Sony did not help Epic integrate Atom View into UE4, it had been "integrated" for at least two years when they bought the technology.
In fact it's not integrated, it's one of the thousands of plugins available for UE4. You can develop a UE4 plugin without having any relationship whatsoever with Epic.

 

[SSfox]

Of course they will...

2 years (min) after releasing their games, and those games already been on sales for 10$ many times already.

And yet even this isn't guaranteed, but this is the best case scenario.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Of course they will...

2 years (min) after releasing their games, and those games already been on sales for 10$ many times already.

And yet even this isn't guaranteed, but this is the best case scenario.

No different to where the service is now, though, right?

Many of the big pubs already have older games up on GP, don't they?

If so, Jez is just reporting the status quo as news when it not.... Should we be surprised? No. He's Jez.

 

[MasterCornholio]

No different to where the service is now, though, right?

Many of the big pubs already have older games up on GP, don't they?

If so, Jez is just reporting the status quo as news when it not.... Should we be surprised? No. He's Jez.

Well sometimes Jez says things to fuel warring which might have been his intention. All to gain clicks in the end.

 

[ethomaz]

This guy makes some good points on the VRR fiasco.... If it matters to anyone here.

Some will see VRR as a mess, some won't care....but it's here if interested.

Is that confirmed?

Here in product page:

"FEATURES SPECIFIED IN HDMI2.1
4K120/eARC/VRR/ALLM

VRR will be available via a future firmware update.
ALLM will be available via a future firmware update."

https://www.sony.com/electronics/televisions/xbr-x900h-series/specifications#features

Edit - Used English page.

 

[SSfox]

No different to where the service is now, though, right?

Many of the big pubs already have older games up on GP, don't they?

If so, Jez is just reporting the status quo as news when it not.... Should we be surprised? No. He's Jez.

Gamepass itself isn't new, it's simply renting games like it existed since forever, the only difference is that when you rent a game you choose that game, while with gamepass it's random games and you have no choice or control on those games you're paying money for. I mean imagine paying money for games you are not interested in, or if not it's games that already own, doesn't make sens to me.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Gamepass itself isn't new, it's simply renting games like it existed since forever, the only difference is that when you rent a game you choose that game, while with gamepass it's random games and you have no choice or control on those games you're paying money for. I mean imagine paying money for games you are not interested in, or if not it's games that already own, doesn't make sens to me.

It obviously has value for some, since it has many vocal evangelists. What I find most curious though is how many of those will go on and on about the
monetary value offered by the service--which for MS's FP alone is impressive - (the value, not MS FP)--but you rarely hear them talk about the amazing games they discovered on GP. Not the way you hear folks wax lyrical about am obscure movie or series they watched on Netflix that was cracked.

I think the service's main target demographic are those super casual gamers who buy a console, buy the latest Fifa/Madden/NBA game but just wanna be able to try out a bunch of other stuff they don't wanna have pay full price for.

More core gamers who buy play and beat most of the biggest games each year, won't have much use for a service that mostly contains games their either not interested in or already own.

 

[Duchess]

Does anyone know how the money the devs receive from GamePass and PS Now is calculated?

I guess that they get an upfront fee to have the game on there, and then receive additional royalties for the plays?

Spotify and other music streaming services pay artists per play, but I can't really see that working for games on these services. Some games are obviously far shorter than others, so there would be an imbalance there.

 

[Nikana]

Does anyone know how the money the devs receive from GamePass and PS Now is calculated?

I guess that they get an upfront fee to have the game on there, and then receive additional royalties for the plays?

Spotify and other music streaming services pay artists per play, but I can't really see that working for games on these services. Some games are obviously far shorter than others, so there would be an imbalance there.

Every deal is different it seems.

Xbox head Phil Spencer details how Xbox Game Pass deals with developers are structured

Phil Spencer has spoken at length about how Xbox Game Pass deals with developers are structured, revealing that deals are usually based on each developer's needs.

www.trueachievements.com

 

[onesvenus]

It obviously has value for some, since it has many vocal evangelists. What I find most curious though is how many of those will go on and on about the
monetary value offered by the service--which for MS's FP alone is impressive - (the value, not MS FP)--but you rarely hear them talk about the amazing games they discovered on GP. Not the way you hear folks wax lyrical about am obscure movie or series they watched on Netflix that was cracked.

I think the service's main target demographic are those super casual gamers who buy a console, buy the latest Fifa/Madden/NBA game but just wanna be able to try out a bunch of other stuff they don't wanna have pay full price for.

More core gamers who buy play and beat most of the biggest games each year, won't have much use for a service that mostly contains games their either not interested in or already own.

As a counterpoint, I've discovered, and then bought, a lot of games that I wouldn't have found otherwise.

The thing is that you get access to a big catalogue of games that you wouldn't be able to try otherwise. In addition to that, with a limited budget, you prioritize what you know that you'll like. Gamepass has allowed me to play games I wouldn't ever buy: Ace Combat, racing and fighting games, etc.
All those things are always minimized by it's detractors that feel the need to protect their platform of choice.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

It obviously has value for some, since it has many vocal evangelists. What I find most curious though is how many of those will go on and on about the
monetary value offered by the service--which for MS's FP alone is impressive - (the value, not MS FP)--but you rarely hear them talk about the amazing games they discovered on GP. Not the way you hear folks wax lyrical about am obscure movie or series they watched on Netflix that was cracked.

I think the service's main target demographic are those super casual gamers who buy a console, buy the latest Fifa/Madden/NBA game but just wanna be able to try out a bunch of other stuff they don't wanna have pay full price for.

More core gamers who buy play and beat most of the biggest games each year, won't have much use for a service that mostly contains games their either not interested in or already own.

Pretty much everything you said is exactly the opposite for me.

I play and beat many of the biggest games during the year and absolutely love trying games I wouldn't have purchased and if I find I gem I will in fact buy it to support the dev.

I guess according to you though I am not a core gamer.

Bonus post new Xbox controller color:

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2021/01/11/introducing-new-xbox-wireless-controller-pulse-red/

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

As a counterpoint, I've discovered, and then bought, a lot of games that I wouldn't have found otherwise.

The thing is that you get access to a big catalogue of games that you wouldn't be able to try otherwise. In addition to that, with a limited budget, you prioritize what you know that you'll like. Gamepass has allowed me to play games I wouldn't ever buy: Ace Combat, racing and fighting games, etc.
All those things are always minimized by it's detractors that feel the need to protect their platform of choice.

I think your last comment is a little reductive. It isn't always about platform of choice, rather what type of gamer you are. And that's precisely what i'm saying (and I would add that your post isn't even a counter-point to my argument but rather supports it).

There are many different types of gamers with different amounts of precious spare time to game. Some with less time don't want to risk their precious hours of game time testing something out to see if they like it, they want sure thing, big ticket top tier games they know they'll have a good time with. As such GamePass isn't the service for them. Other gamers with limited budgets and more time and curiosity to test and discover new games will see more value in a service like GamePass.

Personally for me, it doesn't hold much value because I buy a lot of games anyway, I consume a lot of gaming media, so I will discover many new games that way as well as from word of mouth from gamers on platforms like NeoGaf. I also find I can get a generally good feel for if I'll enjoy a game simply watching a YouTube video of the gameplay and checking out some reviews for it. I'd rather do that for free than pay an extra monthly subscription to a service like GamePass for the privilege.

The issue with a lot of the discussion around the service is that too many gamers participating in these discussions mistakenly think that just because they either value or don't value the service, everybody should or shouldn't. That's not the case and everyone needs to learn the simple truth that different gamers value different things. It's not always about platform wars.

Pretty much everything you said is exactly the opposite for me.

I play and beat many of the biggest games during the year and absolutely love trying games I wouldn't have purchased and if I find I gem I will in fact buy it to support the dev.

I guess according to you though I am not a core gamer.

Bonus post new Xbox controller color:

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2021/01/11/introducing-new-xbox-wireless-controller-pulse-red/

Sorry, HeisenbergFX4

You've genuinely lost me. I'm struggling to see how anything I said either relates to you as a gamer, nor the value you place in a service like GamePass.

My post merely listed two opposing examples of gamer types who might find more or less value in a service like GamePass. It wasn't an exhaustive list of the entire spectrum of gamers making up the gamer demographics who the service would and wouldn't appeal to. It wasn't intended to be such and that should have been obvious.

 

[Nikana]

It obviously has value for some, since it has many vocal evangelists. What I find most curious though is how many of those will go on and on about the
monetary value offered by the service--which for MS's FP alone is impressive - (the value, not MS FP)--but you rarely hear them talk about the amazing games they discovered on GP. Not the way you hear folks wax lyrical about am obscure movie or series they watched on Netflix that was cracked.

I think the service's main target demographic are those super casual gamers who buy a console, buy the latest Fifa/Madden/NBA game but just wanna be able to try out a bunch of other stuff they don't wanna have pay full price for.

More core gamers who buy play and beat most of the biggest games each year, won't have much use for a service that mostly contains games their either not interested in or already own.

Sounds like you arent looking in the right place.

 

[onesvenus]

There are many different types of gamers with different amounts of precious spare time to game. Some with less time don't want to risk their precious hours of game time testing something out to see if they like it, they want sure thing, big ticket top tier games they know they'll have a good time with. As such GamePass isn't the service for them. Other gamers with limited budgets and more time and curiosity to test and discover new games will see more value in a service like GamePass.

Patronizing the people who enjoy Gamepass is one of the problems.
It's not only about people who have time or limited budgets: everyone has limited time and budget, it doesn't matter if yours is 100x mine.
The thing is that everybody needs to choose what to spend their time and money on. Gamepass allows you to remove one of those limiting factors, budget, and get access to games you wouldn't play otherwise.

Let's talk about personal experience: I'm mostly a single player and RPG gamer with the occasional FPS thrown in the mix. I enjoy playing sports and fighting games but it's been a long time since I've bought one of those because when I buy a game, I won't prioritize those. Now, looking at my XSX I'll usually play a match of FIFA, PES or Tekken when I have 10 minutes to spare. Without Gamepass I wouldn't be able to do that. In a way, it reminds me of the PSX, when everybody pirated games and you had access to more games than you were able to play, but now, I can do that legally.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Patronizing the people who enjoy Gamepass is one of the problems.

Where did I do this?

It's not only about people who have time or limited budgets: everyone has limited time and budget, it doesn't matter if yours is 100x mine.

This is reductive and over simplifying for the sake of making an argument.

If I earn six figures and have limited time to game, I will still value GamePass very differently to someone who works mimimum wage and also has limted time to game.

Yes everyone have limitations on budget and time, but the size of those limitations will change how you value the service. It's entirely individualistic.

The thing is that everybody needs to choose what to spend their time and money on. Gamepass allows you to remove one of those limiting factors, budget, and get access to games you wouldn't play otherwise.

GamePass carries a cost, and for gamers like you and HeisenbergFX4 it's not really removing your budget limitation, it's increasing it, considering you're spending more on games buying newly discovered titles you enjoyed on the service.

For other GamePass users, sure.

Let's talk about personal experience:

We've been talking personal experiences pretty much all along. And that all everyone should be doing when discussing GamePass, instead of making sweeping absolute statements about the services' value or game library quality, when every individual gamer on earth will view both of these quantities differently.

I'm mostly a single player and RPG gamer with the occasional FPS thrown in the mix. I enjoy playing sports and fighting games but it's been a long time since I've bought one of those because when I buy a game, I won't prioritize those. Now, looking at my XSX I'll usually play a match of FIFA, PES or Tekken when I have 10 minutes to spare. Without Gamepass I wouldn't be able to do that. In a way, it reminds me of the PSX, when everybody pirated games and you had access to more games than you were able to play, but now, I can do that legally.

For me, I'm a fan of and buy so many different types of games that generally get to this point, i.e. too many games and not enough time, anyway. Given that games often rapidly drop in price as you get deeper into a gen, it becomes an afterthought spending $15-20 on an Ace Combat 7 having never played a previous game in the series. In which case, I'd rather just buy the games than spend the cash on a sub. I'll probably beat one game per month anyway, so it works out the same for me.

 

[onesvenus]

We've been talking personal experiences pretty much all along. And that all everyone should be doing when discussing GamePass, instead of making sweeping absolute statements about the services' value or game library quality, when every individual gamer on earth will view both of these quantities differently.

Exacty.

GamePass carries a cost, and for gamers like you and HeisenbergFX4 HeisenbergFX4 it's not really removing your budget limitation, it's increasing it, considering you're spending more on games buying newly discovered titles you enjoyed on the service.

That's a broad assumption to make. Gamepass games are highly discounted. I've done my numbers and I'm spending less, to own more games, even factoring the Gamepass subscription.

 

[Dabaus]

What time is Sony's CES conference today? I assume they have one right?

 

[SlimySnake]

Ubisoft+ and EA Premium are $15 each. Even if Gamepass goes up from $10 to $15, they will find it hard to pay the clients back.

What they are trying to do would be equivalent to Netflix trying to get HBO, Disney+ and Hulu shows to their service. Just wont happen.

Even if by some miracle it does happen, it will create a monopoly of sorts and eventually result in a $50 a month subscription that wont be good for consumers.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

That's a broad assumption to make. Gamepass games are highly discounted. I've done my numbers and I'm spending less, to own more games, even factoring the Gamepass subscription.

Sorry, this part doesn't compute. The GamePass games you play on the service you don't pay anything for other than your subscription. If you buy them outside of GamePass does MS offer some GamePass related discount that isn't available to GamePass users?

If not, if you're already buying all the biggest games and then discovering new ones on GP, then buying them outside the service, you're spending more... surely?

You might as well just play them on GamePass and not buy them. Otherwise you're paying for a subscription to play them and then buying them too. Voluntarily paying more than you need to.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Bo, again, I know you want to link Sony and Epic as much as you can to imply there's some kind of stronger relationship (why?) but Atom View was developed by Nurulize.
They did a Siggraph presentation, where they showed their UE4 integration, in 2017.

It was not until 2019 that Sony bought the company. So no, Sony did not help Epic integrate Atom View into UE4, it had been "integrated" for at least two years when they bought the technology.
In fact it's not integrated, it's one of the thousands of plugins available for UE4. You can develop a UE4 plugin without having any relationship whatsoever with Epic.

Yes, Atom View plugin was available on UE4 and Unity, but this tech is different. It's first been shown in CES 2020 and if you watched the video you'll know that the Mandalorian is one of the very first series/movies to ever use this tech. It has nothing to do with Atom Streaming / Nanite narrative, but shows further collaboration outside gaming.

And yes, Nurulize came with polygon/voxel streaming in 2017, Sony bought them in 2019, Nanite is coming in late 2021 or early 2022 and announced in 2020.

Epic reveals how it's been working with Sony for years on Unreal Engine 5

Sweeney talks to Edge about the new next-gen engine

www.gamesradar.com

PS5 loading times are so fast, Epic had to rework Unreal Engine 5

Feel the need for SSD speed with PS5

www.techradar.com

And when did Sony started working on PS5? 2015.

So as much as you wanna discredit Sony, as much there are evidence suggests otherwise. Don't you think?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Ubisoft+ and EA Premium are $15 each. Even if Gamepass goes up from $10 to $15, they will find it hard to pay the clients back.

What they are trying to do would be equivalent to Netflix trying to get HBO, Disney+ and Hulu shows to their service. Just wont happen.

Even if by some miracle it does happen, it will create a monopoly of sorts and eventually result in a $50 a month subscription that wont be good for consumers.

And that's not even an official account, more like a parody account.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I know you like to say this, but is there any actual evidence to support this or is it just your theory?

Here are the points:

-Sony Crystal LED (CLED).
-Sony Venice digital cinema camera.
-Sony tech of dynamic CLED movement tied to Sony Venice camera.
-Then Mandalorian using all the above but instead of Sony Atom View engine they're using Unreal Engine.

So what do you think? Is it too hard to "suggest" so?

Does Sony own the rights to this technology... For example if this tech is say used in the development of say a Microsoft blockbuster title, will they have to pay Sony a premium.

Of course they own the rights to this tech, and it's exclusive to their own CLED tech and their own Sony Venice cinema cameras. You can use Sony CLED and Sony Venice as a 3rd party but most likely only on Unreal Engine 4, can't see Sony Pictures sharing Sony Atom View engine as it's proprietary now after their acquisition in 2019.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Although Sony has its own movie engines as this dynamic adjustment was introduced into Atom View engine first but Sony helped Epic Games integrate it into Unreal Engine which is widely used by movie makers:

Isn't this just your speculation?

edit: To be clear, what I'm saying is.. Sony built a plugin for Unreal Engine... why do you think it's somehow integrated into the Unreal Engine now?

 

[onesvenus]

Yes, Atom View plugin was available on UE4 and Unity, but this tech is different. It's first been shown in CES 2020 and if you watched the video you'll know that the Mandalorian is one of the very first series/movies to ever use this tech. It has nothing to do with Atom Streaming / Nanite narrative, but shows further collaboration outside gaming.

You were talking about Atom View in the same sentence. I thought that you were talking about the integration between Atom View and Unreal.
Having said that, can you show any involvement of Sony in The Mandalorian outside of them using a Sony screen? This post on the Epic blog doesn't mention collaborating with Sony at all.

And when did Sony started working on PS5? 2015.

So as much as you wanna discredit Sony, as much there are evidence suggests otherwise. Don't you think?

Here are the points:

-Sony Crystal LED (CLED).
-Sony Venice digital cinema camera.
-Sony tech of dynamic CLED movement tied to Sony Venice camera.
-Then Mandalorian using all the above but instead of Sony Atom View engine they're using Unreal Engine.

So what do you think? Is it too hard to "suggest" so?

Yes, it really is. There are a multiple camera tracking systems outside of Sony's that do the same things with UE and Unity. James Cameron's Avatar used similar tech, with it's own propietary engine, back in 2008.
The nice and novel thing regarding The Mandalorian solution is having such a detailed and big screen.

 

[onesvenus]

edit: To be clear, what I'm saying is.. Sony built a plugin for Unreal Engine... why do you think it's somehow integrated into the Unreal Engine now?

To add to that, Sony did not develop anything. The UE4 plugin was already there when Sony bought that company

 

[Riky]

Gamepass itself isn't new, it's simply renting games like it existed since forever, the only difference is that when you rent a game you choose that game, while with gamepass it's random games and you have no choice or control on those games you're paying money for. I mean imagine paying money for games you are not interested in, or if not it's games that already own, doesn't make sens to me.

It's obviously not random when you know all the first party games will be there day one.

 

[onesvenus]

Of course they own the rights to this tech, and it's exclusive to their own CLED tech and their own Sony Venice cinema cameras.

I missed this.
Bo, are you talking about Atom View or the thing used in The Mandalorian? Because the tech used in the Mandalorian is ILM's property. It's a system called Stagecraft, which in The Mandalorian uses a Sony screen, but there's no further Sony involvement.
Of course if someone wants to use Sony's screens and cameras will pay Sony but to use the tech, they'd have to license from Disney/ILM, not Sony.