CJY
Banned
That was a big boo boo on his part but he slightly redeemed himself by ignoring the Flops. lolStopped at when he said PS5 will not have SMT.
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kyliethicc
Member
Nope. The SSD's in both consoles are internal storage like the Switch has. They also have expansion ports. Not replacement. The PS5 and Switch have ports for M.2 SSDs and Micro SD cards respectively. The Xbox Series X has the slot on the back for their proprietary Expansion Card. None of this added storage replaces the internal storage.
Switch 32 GB internal + Micro SD card expansion slot
PS5 825 GB internal + M.2 SSD expansion bay
XSX 1 TB internal + proprietary Expansion Card slot
Unlike the PS3 and PS4, which had a user replaceable 2.5" SATA hard drive, the PS5 is using 12 individual flash chips over a 12 channel PCIe 4.0 interface to basically directly interface with the SoC through its custom I/O unit. Is basically part of the SoC (the APU and RAM etc). This is no how the PS4 was. It just had a regular hard dive that used a standard SATA connector.
It's much better for the user because now we can use external hard dives for PS4 games on PS5, like say a 2TB, then use the internal 825 GB SSD for PS5 games, and then add a second M.2 SSD in the expansion bay for another say 512 GB or 1 TB of extra SSD storage for more PS5 games. This is great because we can add without having to subtract.
icerock
Member
GAF is an absolute mess, but I feel people should come to terms with the fact that Sony actually designed a box which is based on 'fast and narrow' philosophy. No matter, how many pages you sifted through this thread, and heard about efficiency and why that approach doesn't make sense for consoles. It doesn't matter, that's what Cerny and his team of engineers decided when they were building this machine.
Also, his GPU talk basically started with 'I like running GPUs at higher frequency', from there on, it was all about pushing the PR fluff on how it's better. Also, for those saying, they decided to push up the clocks at last instant because they were short-handed by Series X are sorely mistaken. The tech which is allowing them to over-clock the APU is baked into the silicon itself, their entire cooling design (as the patent suggests) is based around it. So, I'm absolutely certain this was their design goal all along.
Microsoft took the smarter approach by going wide and slow. They simply changed the shape of the box to meet their goals, their power consumption, acoustics are in-line with what one expects from a console. With PS5, it's unknown. Cerny seemed bullish about their cooling solution and going by their patent, I reckon they have got that right. But, this thing is still going to consume a lot more power than Series X, that I'm certain about. People talk about Microsoft changing the console convention with shape of the box but Sony have ventured into Uncharted territory with what they have done with PS5. It's actually quite staggering that they actually followed through with their fast and narrow design, it doesn't make sense to me now and probably won't until I see this machine in action.
Pricing is key! For me personally, the difference we see in spec between the two machines exists because of a discrepancy in budget. Sony cut corners literally all across the board, smaller APU to save on die cost, fewer RAM modules, fewer/smaller storage modules for SSD, to save precious $$ which will probably add up to ~$60-$70 on BoM.
Also, his GPU talk basically started with 'I like running GPUs at higher frequency', from there on, it was all about pushing the PR fluff on how it's better. Also, for those saying, they decided to push up the clocks at last instant because they were short-handed by Series X are sorely mistaken. The tech which is allowing them to over-clock the APU is baked into the silicon itself, their entire cooling design (as the patent suggests) is based around it. So, I'm absolutely certain this was their design goal all along.
Microsoft took the smarter approach by going wide and slow. They simply changed the shape of the box to meet their goals, their power consumption, acoustics are in-line with what one expects from a console. With PS5, it's unknown. Cerny seemed bullish about their cooling solution and going by their patent, I reckon they have got that right. But, this thing is still going to consume a lot more power than Series X, that I'm certain about. People talk about Microsoft changing the console convention with shape of the box but Sony have ventured into Uncharted territory with what they have done with PS5. It's actually quite staggering that they actually followed through with their fast and narrow design, it doesn't make sense to me now and probably won't until I see this machine in action.
Pricing is key! For me personally, the difference we see in spec between the two machines exists because of a discrepancy in budget. Sony cut corners literally all across the board, smaller APU to save on die cost, fewer RAM modules, fewer/smaller storage modules for SSD, to save precious $$ which will probably add up to ~$60-$70 on BoM.
Yes, Kraken, and 77% compression percentage
72%
The least, 61%
"We like to think the only way to get your image files smaller after optimizing them with Kraken.io is to delete them."
Directly from their official website:
Kraken.io Image Optimizer and Compressor for JPG, PNG, GIF
Kraken.io is a robust, ultra-fast image optimizer. Thanks to its vast array of optimization and compression algorithms Kraken.io is a world ahead of other tools. Want to save bandwidth and improve your website's load times? Look no further and welcome to Kraken!kraken.io
Pretty sure kraken.io is unrelated to the kraken compression algorithm, details of which can be found here.
Oodle Kraken
RAD Game Tools' web page. RAD makes Bink Video, the Telemetry Performance Visualization System, and Oodle Data Compression - all popular video game middleware.
www.radgametools.com
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
wide and slow isn't smarter, it's all relative to your goals
and the power consumption won't be a lot more
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icerock
Member
It absolutely does matter, Series X has PS5 beat on both power as well as performance. Your claim would've some merit if the different design goals of the two achieved same set of results but they did not.(Obviously, the caveat in here is of a lower budget). Wider and slower APU would generate less heat and consume less power. End result is an 'efficient' machine, one which is consuming the amount of power which is in-line with the performance it is churning out. Same applies for noise too. PS5 doesn't follow the same logic, for the performance it is giving out, it's generating far more heat and noise in addition to eating more power.
Power and clock curve doesn't scale linearly, power spikes at the higher end significantly once you start pushing the clocks. Take any discreet GPU and start over-clocking, see what it is consuming at its peak frequency (because that's what Sony have done here, they are on logic limit)
Felessan
Member
Theoretical performance. That might or might not translate to real world performance, because real world performance is a bit more complex than competition of pure tflops.
And XSX has advantage in performance in some areas (tflops, i.e. vector unit performance), while ps5 has some other advantage (presumably pixel fill rate, ssd speed).
And we know nothing about power as of now, it's just a random guess.
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You can perfectly stay in your Twitter, continuing to shit there, absolutely understanding nothing about the technical aspect of the issue and throwing off a few examples when a whole lot of developers said about the minimal difference that awaits us. BUT you can go on , right
Probably already over 30, and we continue to play the console war)))
Metroiddarks
Member
Some decision which Sony made are just hard to understand without think in money limitations and backwards compatibility issues which they have during the creation of PS5 like:
-Any improvement in the bandwidth in ram compare to rx 5700, we saw analysis which says this gpu suffers in 4k and now has to share bandwidth the cpu ... really ?
-In the personal I don't see how the smartshift is better than XSX if CPU clock still lower and in the future is impossible to Sony to increment the gpu speed
-Sacrifice RT performance with the reason 36 CU are easier to optimized (just the same as PS4 pro strange right), RT for me is even more important than sound.
Sony made the presentation like if they know is machine was better or at least equals but until now we only see first party dev so says the PS5 is a good console.
The main advantages of PS5 will be possible only use for first parties like SSD and a better audio. For the thirds parties could end in faster loading screens.
We don't know if that geometry engine is enough or even if can be use with RT as the one the reason of use is calculated how the light works in things which are not even in camera, so is possible only can be use in is 100% of ""power" for not RT scenes.
Good! I like that a lot, can change on the fly, I have a set always charged of eneloop pro.
Xbox Series X refuses to scrap this outdated feature
Microsoft rolls out changes to its next gen controller but keeps its AA battery compatibilitywww.t3.com
Bluntman
Member
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.... this topic.
Can we please get a few things finally out of the door so they don't come back to haunt us every few pages?
So, Microsoft call their solutions by their "official" DirectX 12 names. Sony doesn't use DirectX 12, so they call their pipeline solutions differently, but they are the same. Most of them standard RDNA 2 features.
Memory:
Can we please get a few things finally out of the door so they don't come back to haunt us every few pages?
So, Microsoft call their solutions by their "official" DirectX 12 names. Sony doesn't use DirectX 12, so they call their pipeline solutions differently, but they are the same. Most of them standard RDNA 2 features.
- Both consoles have VRS, doesn't matter how Sony would call it.
- Both consoles have Mesh Shading, doesn't matter if Sony calls that Geometry Engine.
- Both consoles have the same RT solution, integrated next to the CUs, almost exactly like Nvidia RTX. No, they are not an entirely "separate hardware". No, it doesn't matter if Sony calls them Intersection Engines.
- Both consoles have dedicated audio hardware, so no, the sound on the XSeX won't take up X amount of Zen 2 cores. Also, Windows Sonic Audio is good. Maybe not Tempest Engine good, but very good.
Memory:
- Someone said a few pages back that memory management is automatic for a very long time now (it was something about the XSeX wierd memory solution). It is automatic... on PCs, where the OS handles it, that's why it's very inefficient. On consoles the game handles the memory management, the OS doesn't even see that part of the memory that the games use.
- The XSeX memory will be fine though.
- Can we please finally forget that SDDs in consoles are "lol doesn't matter if 1 second or 3 second load times lol"?
- When you can replace the entire memory in less than 2 seconds, that opens up entirely new possibilites in game design and performance. This is going to be a never before seen paradigm shift.
- No, it doesn't matter if there is no difference in your PC between an 1GB/s SSD and a 4GB/s SSD. That's why both consoles have a ton a custom hardware and software just for the IO.
- Both manufacturers talked about this in detail so don't be stupid, read the articles, watch the videos. Please?
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xacto
Member
When a "developer" says he doesn't understand Sony's PS5 hardware, maybe it's time he changed his profession, really.
Agnostic2020
Member
Guys there was a post here explaining why sony went woth 825 GB size and how nothing else was possible other than 1.6 tb.can someone send me that post ?
Sinthor
Gold Member
I thought that was odd coming from Osiris as well, especially considering that he saw some game running at "easily" 90FPS and was saying there was no worry about power to spare with this generation? Very odd.
Mendou
Banned
Zero707
If I carry on trolling, report me.
icerock
Member
I'm not sure what that picture is supposed to tell me? I said they went with narrow and fast philosophy, which they did. Did I say the result is a more balanced hardware? No. I literally wrote in my last post that Series X has beat PS5 on both power and performance despite Sony going with their approach. So, I know all of this. Stop being this defensive.
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Lunatic_Gamer
Member
Fanboys are a hilarious bunch. Wasn't the BW the real issue with xbox one ? The most important bottleneck of the design ?
Lunatic_Gamer
Member
Sony's first party studios FTW!
Physiognomonics
Member
Yes. and the complex splitted memory architecture. Something it shares with XSX actually with its odd 10 + 6 memory.
icerock
Member
All that compute advantage of Series X will translate to real world performance too, no matter how how much customization Sony have done on their end. Will the end result be obvious to naked eye? Probably not. In fact, I wrote it a while back that ~15-18% advantage basically means Series X renders a game at 2160p native while PS5 does it at ~1950p. Or both run at 4K native but PS5 drops resolution more often. But, that still means Series X is performing better than PS5.
Sony just had a stricter budget to work with compared to Series X, they could've gone little wider and slower to fit whatever their APU budget is. But, it doesn't necessarily mean they would've gotten the same performance as they are doing now. All the thing which they have put on their SoC is by design, it's by their own choice to extract maximum performance possible.
Both consoles have made sacrifices on bandwidth, those 16/18Gbps modules must've been too costly.
Indeed, Xbox One had measly 68.8GB/s bandwidth compared to 176.0GB/s for PS4 (thanks to DDR3) which resulted in a huge disparity. In a similar fashion, the PS4 Pro was also bandwidth limited compared to Xbox One X but at higher resolutions near 4K mark those differences become much much harder to perceive.
For, Series X and PS5, these differences are much much closer. So I expect any difference in resolutions to be marginal. I'm most curious by how the 3rd party devs implement RT, Series X has a clear advantage but it tanks performance hard, hence requires a balancing act. If they fix on a dynamic resolution instead of chasing 4K native on Series X, then oh boy, they can really make the machine shine. But, I just don't know if they'll bother to put all that effort in, or if MS, in first instance, would be ok with them for not running the game at 4K Native.
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SgtCaffran
Member
Zero707
If I carry on trolling, report me.
you can See SSD name in metal blockZero707 Doesn't look like it, no. I think both (XsX and PS5) are soldered to the mainboard.
edit: or do you recon the top metal part is some kind of lid?
also the metal layer is used for cooling i think they did same thing for surface laptop 3 and is that screw holding down the SSD?
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it_wasn't_me
Banned
Evilms
Banned
The fact that game performance has — and will continue — to bamboozle gamers, developers, and hardware designers, is because a gaming system is greater than the sum of its parts, and there are more factors external to the hardware that affect a game's smooth running than there are internal. No one statistic is a measure of power of a console, there are too many variables, and no one calculation to produce a result. It varies per game, per engine, per firmware, per development team, and per patch, and it always will.
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Zero707
If I carry on trolling, report me.
same shape right ?you can See SSD name in metal block
also the metal layer is used for cooling i think they did same thing for surface laptop 3 and is that screw holding down the SSD?
kyliethicc
Member
In theory anything is, but for the average user. No.BTW is the SSD replaceable in XSX ?
Asciitronaut
Banned
Xbox Series X has better CPU, GPU, and RAM,
PS5 will NOT be maintained at 10.28 tf (otherwise it would be fix clock),
Xbox series x has also shown much more graphical techs like VRS, Mesh Shading, and this article has shown that more is coming,
and on top of that, the SSD advantage of the PS5 might be for nothing
but I mean... "Bruuuuuh"
(is it this the noise the PS5 will be doing while running at 2,2?)
Shio
Member
The reason to allow the couple percent variable frequency is to save power which saves 10 percent power which helps with cooling
DiddyInAHellcat
Member
I remember cerney mentioned something about the height of the SSD ! No? So was he referring to a extra SSD we can add not a replacement correct?
kyliethicc
Member
Yeah. Unlike Micro SD cards, or 2.5" hard drives, there is no 1 size for a M.2 NVMe SSD. They are various sizes. Because they created a expansion bay for these M2 SSDs, only some will fit inside. ( I assume there will be some sort of caddy / heat sink the drive has to be put into that then is connected into the console. But we shall see when they reveal the box. )
So yes, the PS5 can have it's internal storage and a 2nd SSD we add to it. Just like the XSX can have the expansion card SSD added to it. And how Switch can have a 2nd SD card.
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Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Yes, even MS' own developers agree that higher frequency and narrow is preferable, MS' own words:
"And so for them to go wider, for them to go to 14 hardware threads, it means that they have the system to do it, but then, you have to have workloads that split even more effectively across them. And so we're actually finding that the vast majority of developers - talking with them about the their choices for launch - the vast majority are going to go with the SMT disabled and the higher clock."
This is on the CPU. Same applies but even more to the GPU. So Cerny has made a spot on choice again, quite visionary actually to come to that decision 'what if we could run a console GPU at 2230Mhz core clock, and what can we do to achieve that?' as the benefit is massive, and preferable to the inefficiencies that go with a 52 CU approach from MS with 400Mhz lower clocks, as all of those 52 CUs are hard to saturate, hence 'inefficiencies'.
The solution for PS5 is some exotic cooling solution that we'll find out about at the reveal and a unique variable frequency on the CPU/GPU (plus MS' Smartshift tech).
Asciitronaut
Banned
Whatever your biased views tell you but guess what? The world knows better
Whatever your damage control says to you, You give me a CCN link, where most comments are making fun of this article.
If you have to build a PC, nobody would ever choose SSD speed over CPU, GPU, and RAM speed. Pure logic.
I gave you facts, with sources, you give me smileys. But ... Are you laughing or crying though? It´s incredible how fanboys cannot see through. Or some of you have a bad time with confinement?
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
I think his point is a tiny 18% gap in on-paper specs won't matter as Xbox will be in 3rd place again this gen and largely irrelevant to gamers worldwide.
I think the $450-500 price of the Series X will kill it outside of NA, but even there, it looks like the economy will be majorly screwed worse than elsewhere.
Asciitronaut
Banned
You are right ! But for now we can only speak about specs, we only have that, for now.
I honestly was monitoring this forum for some months, since so many crazy bullshit rumors pro PS5 ("vetted account") were coming from there, but decided to create an account and post to see the reaction to facts that these people have. Well, i wasn´t disappointed: Some are really on the edge just because their brand hasn't the clear win like 7 years ago.
I personally have owned PS1, 2, 3, PSP, now own a PS4, owned an Xbox360 as well, (so unlike some biased mod think, not an XBOX fan) I will just put my money in the best system. But facts are facts. Xbox series X is better, and no secret sauce will save PS5 in this regard.
For the rest, let´s see later, but now I'm sure that many on this thread are mostly cringy trolls (the"hype train" photoshop... oh my god...)
it_wasn't_me
Banned
In other words on PS5 - Geometry engine
LittleBigGamer
Banned
This is BS.
SSD speed until today was used only for faster loading times. Sure, they would never choose SSD speed over the others, because it wasn't anything else than loading times. One could live with a one-second difference in loading.
It is the first time that SSDs will be used for game development. The first ever in a generation. So your comparison is wrong at best.
I am not saying that the speed difference will make a huge difference. I am saying that we don't know what difference will bring. It is a new situation we have to wait to see how it will affect gaming at whole.
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Evilms
Banned
Rohleistungsvergleich Xbox Series X vs. Playstation 5 | 3DCenter.org
Mit der Bekanntgabe der wesentlichen Hardware-Spezifikationen zur Microsoft Xbox Series X sowie zur Sony Playstation 5 ergab sich natürlich sofort ein Vergleich der jeweiligen Rohleistungen – mit dem bekannt besseren Ausgang zugunsten der
SgtCaffran
Member
Useable memory for PS5 will likely be higher if:Rohleistungsvergleich Xbox Series X vs. Playstation 5 | 3DCenter.org
Mit der Bekanntgabe der wesentlichen Hardware-Spezifikationen zur Microsoft Xbox Series X sowie zur Sony Playstation 5 ergab sich natürlich sofort ein Vergleich der jeweiligen Rohleistungen – mit dem bekannt besseren Ausgang zugunsten derwww.3dcenter.org
- They manage to stream the majority of the OS
- The SSD is so fast that more of the RAM can be used for what's in the current frame instead of RAM for the future frames
I said it before but if a 2% clock drop is saving 10% power then they are using a lot of voltage to hit peak clock speeds and in all likelihood they need a bigger cooling solution than the Xbox SX because they will have more watts and many more watts/mm² to remove.
Another point is that have you seen the 2080Ti power usage with RTX turned on Vs turned off? It uses lot more power when the FPS is locked to limit and you turn RTX on (so shader usage stays the same).
I hope Sony are testing their clock speed with raytracing to make sure it maintains those clocks when running shader and dxr effects at the same time as this is when you are going to need those peak clock speeds to maintain framerate.
CPU and GPU is entirely different. Scaling threads across CPUs is far more challenging than loading up all the shaders in a GPU.
If it wasn't the 2080Ti would not be faster than the 2080S.
52CUs at a more reasonable clock speed is far far far more efficient than ramping up the voltage to hit 2.23Ghz that the PS5 is doing.
pasterpl
Member
thelastword
Banned
Maybe that's why he was booted from Sony too......He just didn't understand anything......How could this guy keep up with the other devs at ND, GG, Santa Monica.....He was slowing them down.....He sounds bitter anyway...
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