MasterCornholio
Member
True but that doesn't mean the XSXs form factor isn't the only way to efficiently cool a system. This is why I'm very curious to see what the PS5 looks like especially after seeing those developer kits.
- Status
True but that doesn't mean the XSXs form factor isn't the only way to efficiently cool a system. This is why I'm very curious to see what the PS5 looks like especially after seeing those developer kits.
Shmunter
Member
Does he address compression? No link.Looks like he is actually saying the opposite that you can bypass kernel using unbuffered i/o but still have to deal with GPU overhead.
Again a-lot of this DirectStorage fixes.
also we don't know if GPUDirect Storage is coming to RTX
Nvidia details GPUDirect Storage performance gains | bit-tech.net
No longer bottlenecked by the CPU.bit-tech.net
Ascend
Member
SF =/= SFSRight SFS exists even today in rtx series 2000
Also cannot be use for all the textures call and neither is a new technlogy never implemented before exist since the game Rage 1 XD
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Dr Strange
Member
I've wanted to sacrifice myself may my blood make this happen!
But nothing has happened except a "Soon" from yoshida!
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ethomaz
Banned
Thinking a bit at Unbuffered vs Buffered IO the cache scrubbers in PS5 makes all sense.
If the cache scrubbers is used as buffer for the IO then you basically have IO system with Buffered calls near the performance of Unbuffered calls.
That why the cache is way faster than the RAM... so it mitigate the difference between Buffered and Unbuffered speeds at first read and after that it has all the advantages of the Buffered IO with the data already in the bufffer without need to go on disc.
If Sony is using that cache scrubber for that you will have:
Buffered: PS5 OS Call -> Cache -> SSD -> Cache -> PS5 OS
The difference is that the Cache is way way way faster than Memory on PC.... so the loss of speed/performance with the buffer is lower than what you have on PC using Memory.
If the cache scrubbers is used as buffer for the IO then you basically have IO system with Buffered calls near the performance of Unbuffered calls.
That why the cache is way faster than the RAM... so it mitigate the difference between Buffered and Unbuffered speeds at first read and after that it has all the advantages of the Buffered IO with the data already in the bufffer without need to go on disc.
If Sony is using that cache scrubber for that you will have:
Buffered: PS5 OS Call -> Cache -> SSD -> Cache -> PS5 OS
The difference is that the Cache is way way way faster than Memory on PC.... so the loss of speed/performance with the buffer is lower than what you have on PC using Memory.
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Metroiddarks
Member
ethomaz
Banned
One is the feature.
Other is that feature being used with streaming.
"Use of sampler feedback with streaming is sometimes abbreviated as SFS. It is also sometimes called sparse feedback textures, or SFT, or PRT+, which stands for "partially resident textures".
Sampler Feedback has two uses:
1) Streaming... called SFS
2) Texture-Space Shading... improve performance of TSS.
Edit - Updated with more info.
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FranXico
Member
That explains the confusions going on.
Metroiddarks
Member
Because that tecnlogy is already use for all the GPU is now because they saw in the spec sheet think is the Holy grail of the memory (people like
Ascend
and
Exodia
) ignoring all the documentation and video than the same Microsft share because hey who cares that stuff.
SF contains SFS (for streaming ) and TSS (Texture-Space Shading ).
https://microsoft.github.io/DirectX-Specs/d3d/SamplerFeedback.html
Is necesary hardware to make it work? yes
Is unique new tecnlogy withou parallel? not
the hardware only exists on XSX? not
ethomaz
Banned
I edited to add a bit more... SF is used only in two cases: streaming and TSS... when used with Streaming it is called SFS.
ethomaz
Banned
Because that tecnlogy is already use for all the GPU is now because they saw in the spec sheet think is the Holy grail of the memory (people like
ignoring all the documentation and video than the same Microsft share because hey who cares that stuff.
SF contains SFS (for streaming ) and TSS (Texture-Space Shading ).
https://microsoft.github.io/DirectX-Specs/d3d/SamplerFeedback.html
Is necesary hardware to make it work? yes
Is unique new tecnlogy withou parallel? not
the hardware only exists on XSX? not
I believe Turing and RDNA has Sampler Feedback support.
Or at least partial support (in RDNA... Turing and RDNA2 probably have full support)... needs to check the Tier table.
Edit - The tier levels:
TIER_NOT SUPPORTED
TIER_0_9 (some small limitations)
TIER_1_0 (full support)
Turing and RDNA 2 are TIER_1_0.
I don't know which ones are TIER_0_9.
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MasterCornholio
Member
To be fair it really was just some people not understand the tech fully. Now that we have more information it's easy to see that SFS is already included in the specs that Microsoft have us. And like all features there's situations where it will work best.
I still don't understand where the hype came from when it really is just a normal feature.
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Metroiddarks
Member
The only say are now compatible with Turing I don't find any tier table but I don't see crazy this compatible with RDNA 2 for PC :
ToadMan
Member
Don't be silly.
Sony and MS put 2 consumer products on the market competing for the same market. But the individuals working on those products will know each other and probably interact quite regularly.
Indicative transfer rates aren't a closely guarded secret - especially when its too late for hardware redesigns. If an individual at Sony was asked by an MS employee how their SSD development was going and got a response saying "great - we think we'll hit 5gb/s or more with it" that's not exactly a major industrial secret being exchanged.
Besides which MS don't know how Sony went about getting those speeds, so knowing Sony speeds doesn't mean MS know how to achieve it or have the time to achieve it themselves.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Exactly and if people ACTUALLY paid attention during the presentation, FFS there's a god damn co-processor purely dedicated to their new ID-based storage access API. I remember Moore's Law is Dead saying a while ago that MS was originally planning to go with a 1.2-1.8GB/s drive without a custom decompressor for the Series X UNTIL they found out about what Sony was doing with their SSD tech. If him and his sources are anything to go by and that's true, just let that sink in for a moment before going to ramble on about how Microsoft's "SOFTWARE EXPERIENCE" is gonna help them close the gap with Sony's SSD tech.
Yup, the results gonna be funny. I'm keen to see H2H sooner than later.
ethomaz
Banned
Tier Table for Sampler Feedback is documented here: https://microsoft.github.io/DirectX-Specs/d3d/SamplerFeedback.htmlThe only say are now compatible with Turing I don't find any tier table but I don't see crazy this compatible with RDNA 2 for PC :
In DX for each feature you have a function that return the Tier level, for Sampler Feedback it can return:
TIER_NOT_SUPPORTED (most old GPUs archs)
TIER_0_9 (RDNA?)
TIER_1_0 (Turing and RDNA 2)
If there is a TIER_0_9 that means there is old Archs that supports Sampler Feedback with the small limitations described in the doc I posted.
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ToadMan
Member
Sorry you missed the point ....
100gb is available virtual memory for an Xsex game.
Sony have a similar solution which is able to reference the whole 825gb according to what they've said so far.
Yes MS are using a marketing term, but the 100gb is SSD is allocated as virtual memory. That is a specific capability the Xsex implements.
Unfortunately it's about 200x too slow to be of much use to Xsex developers, but the feature is there, it's not just a marketing term.
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Neo_game
Member
It is just like saying directx is better than opengl or vulkan and unfortunately most people believe that. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hopefully Vulkan will get the support this time. There is no reason for PS5 to use more RAM than it needs. Why wouldn't they not have something like SFS or VRS is beyond me.
ToadMan
Member
It is virtual memory but the 100gb is built around the game install - it not the same bit of SSD very time.
I'm curious about SSD wear too both for Xsex and PS5 when the systems are gonna be hitting up the flash constantly. Perhaps we'll get 5 year warranties.
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JareBear: Remastered
Banned
Epic Games' Tim Sweeney explains why PS5's Optane Dimms could be a game changer
Founder and CEO of Epic Games on how PS5 tech could rival that of PC's
www.shacknews.com
It is an interesting idea, to me anyway, that PCs will need to improve/adapt/evolve based on what these next-gen consoles are doing. I don't know if it is totally true or not, but if it is, how long will it take for PCs to universally improve to match or at least pull closer in line to the next-gen consoles' efficiency?
ethomaz
Banned
Developers only put on RAM what they want... there is no waste.
How people described SFS here is a bit simplicist.
It is not about discard for exemple non used data... that any game engine already does just fine.
SFS discard part of the data (file) that won't be used.
Let's take a texture as example.
Dev needs to use a only a part (crop) of the texture stored in the disc, he has two options:
1) Streaming the full texture and keep it in memory to use.
2) Crop the texture and create a smaller file on the game data with only with the part of the texture and stream that file and keep it in the memory to use.
The first option you will be having a waste of memory when the game only needs part of the texture.
The second option generate duplicated data in disc and add work time to crop the texture in development (it seems easy with only one texture but imagine having to do that with 1k textures or even more... each one you need a specific part of it).
So SFS do the crop work in memory while running the game if it defines from previous frames the other part of the texture won't be used in next frame.
SFS exists to discard the part of the data (in our exemple texture) that won't be used in that moment for the game.
You continue streaming the full texture to memory but SFS analise the previous frames what was used and discard the parts not used (and that won't be used in the next-frame)... so at the end you have the cropped version of the texture in memory without need to do that work.
That works very well but with some limitations.
For example SFS defines if the other part of the texture will be used in the next frames based in previous frames.
But for example if SFS decided discard the part of texture thinking it won't be used in the next frame but in the actual frame you need the other part of the texture in the next frame... if you have the full texture in memory you don't need to stream from disc again.
But if SFS discarded it you will need to stream the texture twice... in that case you should not use SFS because you want to have the full texture to be used parts of it in the sequencial frame (it is faster that way even if it uses more memory).
That is what I understand from SFS MS docs.
It is a feature to automatize the discard of non-used data in memory and decrease development time... devs can do the same manually but it will take time and $$$.
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Games Dean
Member
Ascend
Member
And where is the evidence that this has been done already in the past? And where is the evidence that the PS5 does this also? Because that is the argument that I'm constantly hearing.Is the same SFS is a part of SF how do you don't get it ?
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ResilientBanana
Member
Agreed. Someone mentioned to me that the PS5 has it under a different name, but I'm not clear as to what that name is. When you search sampler feedback, it's simply a direct X feature.
Ascend
Member
And by the way, I have posted that link multiple times on here, including this and other threads;Is the same SFS is a part of SF how do you don't get it ?
Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD
Maybe he's talking about what it's missing compared to the PS5s? I know the only difference isn't just the design of the actual SSD. Does the Series X has all the hardware that the I/O complex has or something similar? All what i mentioned plus BcPack and then this: UE4's Nanite is...
Xbox Velocity Architecture - 100 GB is instantly accessible by the developer through a custom hardware decompression block
No one designs games around SSDs, they target the: CPU, GPU, RAM. I'd say its the opposite way round - designers have built their games around the HDD transfer limitations in the past. They've tried to hide these compromises behind gameplay devices - elevators, corridors, walking sections...
Xbox Velocity Architecture - 100 GB is instantly accessible by the developer through a custom hardware decompression block
Except for the 100 gigs that can move at 4.8GB/s, right? 1080p at 40fps explains everything? No I thought the laptop was running it at 1440P. It explains why the laptop with a weaker GPU was getting higher framerates than that PS5 demo.
Metroiddarks
Member
Do you actually understand what is SFS or just talk for talk ? and for that I mean you are programmer graduated or close to do it at least any time you at least work in game engine or
program to model if you answer is yes I can try to explain you.
Those tecnolgies were created to use megatextures in the era of Rage 1 yeah the era of Xbox 360 and PS3, after were moved to current consoles, Sony has 'Partially Resident Textures'
and Xbox One 'Tiled Resources' . SF is an improvment of Tiled Resources.
Yes but is clear you don't understand the topic.And by the way, I have posted that link multiple times on here, including this and other threads;
Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD
Maybe he's talking about what it's missing compared to the PS5s? I know the only difference isn't just the design of the actual SSD. Does the Series X has all the hardware that the I/O complex has or something similar? All what i mentioned plus BcPack and then this: UE4's Nanite is...www.neogaf.com
Xbox Velocity Architecture - 100 GB is instantly accessible by the developer through a custom hardware decompression block
No one designs games around SSDs, they target the: CPU, GPU, RAM. I'd say its the opposite way round - designers have built their games around the HDD transfer limitations in the past. They've tried to hide these compromises behind gameplay devices - elevators, corridors, walking sections...
Xbox Velocity Architecture - 100 GB is instantly accessible by the developer through a custom hardware decompression block
Except for the 100 gigs that can move at 4.8GB/s, right? 1080p at 40fps explains everything? No I thought the laptop was running it at 1440P. It explains why the laptop with a weaker GPU was getting higher framerates than that PS5 demo.
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MasterCornholio
Member
I believe NX Gamer talked about it in his I/O video.
Ascend
Member
I'm not interested in going in circles. Go read back a few pages.
Leaving this here as a bonus;
And even if you're using a partial-mip-chain-based system, accurate sampler feedback can still allow you to make better judgments about what to load and when.
Coming to DirectX 12— Sampler Feedback: some useful once-hidden data, unlocked - DirectX Developer Blog
Why Feedback: A Streaming Scenario Suppose you are shading a complicated 3D scene. The camera moves swiftly throughout the scene, causing some objects to be moved into different levels of detail. Since you need to aggressively optimize for memory, you bind resources to cope with the demand for...
devblogs.microsoft.com
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FALCON_KICK
Member
So wont the PC release date be delayed due to this?Epic Games' Tim Sweeney explains why PS5's Optane Dimms could be a game changer
Founder and CEO of Epic Games on how PS5 tech could rival that of PC's
It is an interesting idea, to me anyway, that PCs will need to improve/adapt/evolve based on what these next-gen consoles are doing. I don't know if it is totally true or not, but if it is, how long will it take for PCs to universally improve to match or at least pull closer in line to the next-gen consoles' efficiency?
Also whenever development for PS4/Xbox1 gen is abandoned and 3.5 GHz 8 cores/16 threads becomes the new baseline for development of next gen titles, then it might also make PC having processors with lesser cores redundant?
Shadow of the Damned and Red Dead Redemption never received a PC port. Was it due to these games being designed to extract maximum performance from the CPU of Xbox 360 and PS3?
Bonsaibäumchen
Member
This discussion is fruitless now.
Carmack and Sweeny said PS5's architecture is superior.
Carmack doesn't have any stakes in all of this.
He's hasn't been working on game engines for 7 years, went to occulus and is doing AI stuff now.
There is absolutly no denying it.
Those two created the 2 most high level game engines.
I'll stop dealing with this console war now.
Just waiting for games to see if they can actually use all that shit and make something fun and stunning out of it.
Carmack and Sweeny said PS5's architecture is superior.
Carmack doesn't have any stakes in all of this.
He's hasn't been working on game engines for 7 years, went to occulus and is doing AI stuff now.
There is absolutly no denying it.
Those two created the 2 most high level game engines.
I'll stop dealing with this console war now.
Just waiting for games to see if they can actually use all that shit and make something fun and stunning out of it.
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Thirty7ven
Banned
The new secret sauce.
It's an improvement though, from SSD/IO "only" for loadings, to doesn't matter for visuals specifically, to speed doesn't make a difference, to XSX Velocity Architecture secret sauce now everybody realizes it matters a lot.
U5 put an end to the floppy war.
Direct X is back!
It's an improvement though, from SSD/IO "only" for loadings, to doesn't matter for visuals specifically, to speed doesn't make a difference, to XSX Velocity Architecture secret sauce now everybody realizes it matters a lot.
U5 put an end to the floppy war.
Direct X is back!
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Metroiddarks
Member
Ok so you never touced an engine or program to model that why do you think any word you don't understand is magic.I'm not interested in going in circles. Go read back a few pages.
Leaving this here as a bonus;
And even if you're using a partial-mip-chain-based system, accurate sampler feedback can still allow you to make better judgments about what to load and when.
Coming to DirectX 12— Sampler Feedback: some useful once-hidden data, unlocked - DirectX Developer Blog
Why Feedback: A Streaming Scenario Suppose you are shading a complicated 3D scene. The camera moves swiftly throughout the scene, causing some objects to be moved into different levels of detail. Since you need to aggressively optimize for memory, you bind resources to cope with the demand for...
The tecnology SF is an improvment of tiled resource I said it multipe times I am not denied that, but the same Microsoft say is not unique for XSX if you don't understand that how do you want
to understand something than enginers with years of experiencie in the topic are talking about.
You should got this if you have an idea of what are you talking about since the presentation but not who care understand something if can copy paste everything.
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Ascend
Member
That is your conclusion. I didn't make nor will I make comments on my credentials here, because it is not about me. Either explain what you pretend you know, or go bother someone else.
Metroiddarks
Member
You don't have credential for this topic is was true you already should know about the Tiles resources of Xbox one also understand why any software enginer or similar name
the features in way you can identified which is the parent of you code in this case SFS is a part of children if you want of SF.
If for you bother is tried to explain why the thing you have page copy pasting everyhing you find without understand it, man the real life should be a hell for you.
Tripolygon
Banned
He did not say that. He said GPU direct access to formatted data on SSD is a big deal.
Its funny you mentioned red dead since RDR2 is one of the first games that do what you asked in the first paragraph. Check out the gamers nexus video of how it stuttera on 4 core 4 thread pcs.
Compared to PC - yes.
The full quote:
"Yes, being able to load GPU formatted data directly into GPU memory from an SSD is a Big Deal. The only quibble I have with @TimSweeneyEpic 's quote is that you can bypass kernel buffers on PC with unbuffered IO. The GPU driver overhead still dominates."
Both XSX and PS5 use this technology.
Even Tim Sweeney does not say PS5 is superior than XSX - that is just better.
He said that the demo was made to showcase fast loading from the SSD.
Do you really think this will be impossible on XSX?
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Ascend
Member
Rusco Da Vino
Member
That is the point, it is simply a Direct X feature.
It is not magic hidden hardware or new exclusive rdna feature.
The "same" tech has been used by Sony and MS since (at least) 2013. It is called RDT (Partially Resident Textures)
Partially Resident Textures | RenderingPipeline
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Bonsaibäumchen
Member
Yeah but in the end Sweeny showed their Tech for PS5, and Carmack backed up some facts about the design.
For me thats enough to know that I don't have to particpate in further discussions.
Seriously for me it like I would try to discuss something that Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking backed.
No need to. Feel free to continue but I won't discuss which hardware is superior or has what advantages anymore.
Metroiddarks
Member
You are right my arguments with bases is what makes me be right.
Don't take this personal I am sure you are good guy but that doesn't means I had to assent to any opinion/comment I saw.
Ascend
Member
Then why are MS claiming 2x - 3x improvement over Xbox One X?That is the point, it is simply a Direct X feature.
It is not magic hidden hardware or new exclusive rdna feature.
The "same" tech has been used by Sony and MS since (at least) 2013. It is called RDT (Partially Resident Textures)
Partially Resident Textures | RenderingPipeline
renderingpipeline.com
You mean the arguments that mention the word "you" almost 10 times in three sentences? Yeah... I wouldn't classify those as arguments with 'bases'.
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Radical_3d
Member
When does Sony Tuesday usually happens? I don't want the funny guy to be banned.
ethomaz
Banned
It is the same but impoved.That is the point, it is simply a Direct X feature.
It is not magic hidden hardware or new exclusive rdna feature.
The "same" tech has been used by Sony and MS since (at least) 2013. It is called RDT (Partially Resident Textures)
Partially Resident Textures | RenderingPipeline
Another name for SFS is PRT+ as described in MS docs.
"Use of sampler feedback with streaming is sometimes abbreviated as SFS. It is also sometimes called sparse feedback textures, or SFT, or PRT+, which stands for "partially resident textures". "
If I have to guess the GPUs that supports PRT are all Sampler Feedback TIER_0_9.
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Bonsaibäumchen
Member
In the past few weeks it's been usually already posted. The latest one was in about 2 and a half hours from now.
Neo Blaster
Member
It's a Wccftech's article, what did you expect?
Tim Sweeney Explains Exactly Why the PS5's SSD and I/O Architecture Is Way More Efficient Than PC's
Epic founder Tim Sweeney explained exactly why the PlayStation 5's SSD and I/O Architecture is way more efficient than PC's.wccftech.com
It should be noted that Tim Sweeney has discussed the PlayStation 5 since that has been the company's primary focus, as Epic has been working for 'quite a long time' alongside Sony on that Unreal Engine 5 demo. However, the Xbox Series X also features its own Velocity Architecture which is designed to 'radically improve asset streaming' and to 'effectively multiply available memory' thanks to a custom NVMe SSD (rated at 2.4 GB/s with raw data), a dedicated hardware decompression block, the new Sampler Feedback Streaming technology and last but not least, the new DirectStorage API.
The latter component is particularly relevant because Microsoft already confirmed plans to bring it to Windows PC, too. According to Microsoft, DirectStorage can significantly reduce CPU overhead for I/O operations (such as those happening in the background to load the next parts of the world) from several cores to a small fraction of a single core. Needless to say, this could severely diminish the PC I/O issues mentioned above by Tim Sweeney.
Let them Dream?
Darius87
Member
can someone explain how 100 GB could be instantly accessible? i mean instantly is like less then a 1 second unless xsex has compresion ratio 1 : 80 that would make sense for it's ssd 2.4gb/s.
100gb / 4.8gb/s = 20.8 sec if that's instant then i don't know what else to say. unless ms explains what's is hapening under the hood i call this bs.
100gb / 4.8gb/s = 20.8 sec if that's instant then i don't know what else to say. unless ms explains what's is hapening under the hood i call this bs.
ethomaz
Banned
The comparison is about with and without it... not Xbox One X.
Xbox One X supports PRT.
BTW nVidia uses the name Tiled Resources.
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xacto
Member
Radical_3d
Member
OMG. This quarantine, I swear…Most likely... on a Tuesday?
- Status