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[Tripolygon]

Here is the thing:

The USB port allows for data transfer of the 49 GB file that Jeff runs over 1min 18 sec. At that time the USB port becomes the bottle-neck. Since all times are much higher than that we know that the USB port is not the problem.

Both the internal SSD and the external SSD are way lower than their hardware specifications in the runs as well.

Consequently, it is how the architecture handles I/O and how files are managed that bottle-necks the system.

What might be going on is that the OS runs file verification when writing and that the latency is high for the USB port (and write verification obviously only needs to be run towards the device that is being used for the write).

It really does not matter how fast the internal SSD is, you can only move as fast as your slowest part which is the USB port and external SSD. On sustained write/read the Seagate Game Drive for Xbox SSD (STHB500401) which is similar to Seagate barracuda SSD (STGS500401) drops in performance significantly to 240MB/s going by benchmarks. But like you allude to, there is latency and software side to take into account. I would like to see the same benchmark but from internal SSD to Expansion port SSD over PCIE 4.0. Then we can truly judge the capabilities of the internal SSD.

 

[VargasPaPuM]

 

[VargasPaPuM]

What, do you know 3rd party game prices.

Stop talking crap. Fist game \i checked,

Assassin's Creed Valhalla Amazon Limited Edition (Xbox One/Series X) (Exclusive to Amazon.co.uk): Amazon.co.uk: PC & Video Games

Buy Assassin's Creed Valhalla Amazon Limited Edition (Xbox One/Series X) (Exclusive to Amazon.co.uk) from Amazon.co.uk. Everyday low prices on a huge range of consoles, games and accessories.

www.amazon.co.uk

Its same price on both, amazing.

dude simple math and thinking

 

[kyliethicc]

Edit: Sony really was not playing about IO and general speed of PS5. They went out of their way to ensure that everything was fast and top of the line. PCIE 4.0 x4, USB 3.1 gen2, WIFI 6, Bluetooth 5.0. Compared to PS4 that they honestly cheapened out on.

Yeah this is what impresses me about the PS5. All the little details, quality of life stuff, all about speed. Sony cut no costs and yet, I can still get one for only $400. Very cool.

 

[VargasPaPuM]

What about GoT, an open world PS4 game that looks way better?

when the game releases we will talk

 

[VargasPaPuM]

Yeah this is what impresses me about the PS5. All the little details, quality of life stuff, all about speed. Sony cut no costs and yet, I can still get one for only $400. Very cool.

yes and they will recover selling $70 games

 

[Moridianae]

Roughly 40-42 days until both consoles are on the shelves.

It really speaks volumes to how weird this generation has gone in reveals and information that so close to launch we still have a Speculation thread for both systems.

 

[SNPlayen]

It's another case of framing and narrative. CD Project paying a lot of overtime and bonus money for the overtime, they are fighting a deadline. But Jason makes it sound like slavery. When we don't know all the details. Not every case of crunch time is the same.

I've "crunched" alot this year and that overtime money paid for the solar I just put in + more.

 

[Sinthor]

I've "crunched" alot this year and that overtime money paid for the solar I just put in + more.

Yeah, I agree. It's disingenuous to expect NO crunch time ever and that kind of thing. I think the main point with that stuff is....how long is it for? Some undefined period? That would be bad, period. What people MISS with this kind of thing is if it's for a shorter, controlled period..sometimes people are JUST FINE with it BECAUSE they get the overtime and such. So I say, let's see. If they can wrap it up in 6 weeks or even if they have to say 'fine..two more' and get it done and get people compensated, then GOOD.

 

[cudiye]

With how shitty the DS4's analog sticks are being slippery and all. I'm just glad Sony addressed it with the DualSense and made the improvements. If only it's as sturdy as the Xbox's but I digress.

Spoiler

 

[existensmaximum]

Dark Souls 3 was harsh. Your character feels out of place in that world all the enemies are so quick

I always felt that Dark Souls 3 was like a cross between Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne.

Similar enemies and even some environments (especially the village), and I found myself relying a lot on speed and prioritized having a really light, quick and agile character to dodge everything, just like in Bloodborne.

Then again I prefer having that kind of character in Dark Souls 1 as well.. But it felt more natural in 3. Love all three games though (and absolutely hate that piece of garbage Dark Souls 2....)

 

[B_Boss]

With how shitty the DS4's analog sticks are being slippery and all. I'm just glad Sony addressed it with the DualSense and made the improvements. If only it's as sturdy as the Xbox's but I digress.

Spoiler

I could've swore Sony addressed the analog issue long before Dualsense. They also addressed the issue with broken trigger pivots as well. The quality of the DS4 analog material definitely seems to have improved since launch.

 

[Nickolaidas]

More info on PS5 BC with the PS4, via source code. Apparently confirming that more and more PS4 games will be boosted/BC'ed as time passes.

New PS5 Backwards Compatibility Details Revealed Along With Reconfirming A PS5 Boost Mode - PlayStation Universe

A bunch of new PS5 backwards compatibility details have been revealed, alongside reconfirmation that a PS5 boost mode will be available on the new console.

www.psu.com

Sorry if old.

 

[VargasPaPuM]

More info on PS5 BC with the PS4, via source code. Apparently confirming that more and more PS4 games will be boosted/BC'ed as time passes.

New PS5 Backwards Compatibility Details Revealed Along With Reconfirming A PS5 Boost Mode - PlayStation Universe

A bunch of new PS5 backwards compatibility details have been revealed, alongside reconfirmation that a PS5 boost mode will be available on the new console.

www.psu.com

Sorry if old.

Im trying to understand. PS4 and PS5 are x386 architecture. I don't understand why is soo difficult to play PS4 games on 5.

Anybody can explain better?

 

[mitchman]

Oh I thought it was. It was still the country with the most units shipped to

Source?

 

[DeeDogg_]

Source?

A functioning brain.
That or most of them got shipped to Antarctica

 

[AeneaGames]

feel like crying.

Don't flood your little pond!

Thing is, current gen games are build around hdd's, they won't use the fancy decompression provided by the new consoles so it's being done on the CPU.

Plus what many people forget that start up times of a game consists of more than mere loading data. Might need to be processed in some way or they need to contact a server like in games as Destiny...

Next gen games will be able to load faster, but don't even expect that from games getting a patch

 

[Imtjnotu]

Im trying to understand. PS4 and PS5 are x386 architecture. I don't understand why is soo difficult to play PS4 games on 5.

Anybody can explain better?

Different memory arch. Different io. Different storage

 

[VargasPaPuM]

Different memory arch. Different io. Different storage

I still don't understand why so difficult. the instructions set are the same.

 

[Classicrockfan]

https://www.exophase.com/game/crash-bandicoot-4-its-about-time-psn/trophies/ Off topic trophies are up

 

[ethomaz]

I still don't understand why so difficult. the instructions set are the same.

Even the instruction set are not the same between Jaguar and Zen 2.

 

[VargasPaPuM]

Even the instruction set are not the same between Jaguar and Zen 2.

if this is the case. same Windows or Linux would not work in both. including the applications.


it would be nice if somebody talk technically about this

 

[Felessan]

With America getting 75% of that. Which are not all sold out

You are overestimating America.
America is bigger that any other single country, but Europe as a whole is bigger than America, and the rest of the world (excluding America and Europe) is comparable in size with America. And console shipments most probably more or less proportional to market size. So America will get around 30% of total shipment.

 

[Nickolaidas]

if this is the case. same Windows or Linux would not work in both. including the applications.


it would be nice if somebody talk technically about this

But wouldn't that spoil your constant downplaying of the toy you never intended to buy in the first place? I say, let them be silent!

 

[GermanZepp]

A functioning brain.
That or most of them got shipped to Antarctica

When I was a teenager I played in a band called Antartica edit: we sucked

 

[Nickolaidas]

FUCKING FINALLY!!!

WISHLISTS ON THE PS5 STORE!!!

JESUS CHRIST!!!

New PS5 Features Discovered in PS Store's Source Code

Wishlists! Boost Mode! More!

www.pushsquare.com

 

[kyliethicc]

It's another case of framing and narrative. CD Project paying a lot of overtime and bonus money for the overtime, they are fighting a deadline. But Jason makes it sound like slavery. When we don't know all the details. Not every case of crunch time is the same.

I just don't care that much about it. I know plenty of people who have "crunched" in all sorts of work. Its life.

And this is never gonna change, nor is it new. Nor is it my concern really. They can handle that stuff internally, all companies. HR and that shit. Doesn't matter to me as a buyer.

Its not a coincidence that the best studios who make great works of art all crunch. Same with other art forms and industries. Its inevitable in art creation, athletics, medicine, law, education, finance, science, construction, agriculture, and on and on.

I wish everyone on earth could work as little as possible (if they want), make as much as possible, create amazing things and everyone prosper. But life is what it is, and at the end of the day its all voluntary and video games are just entertainment.

Even as a lefty, I don't care for Jason's political agenda or the way he talks to/about a lot of game creators. He comes across as pretty mean spirited and hypocritical at times. But I trust his reporting to be accurate cause he is good at his job and experienced.

 

[Zoro7]

Oh I thought it was. It was still the country with the most units shipped to

You can pull bullshit from your ass and act like its fact. Why would more units be shipped to America than the rest of the world? If you have facts post them if not be quiet.

 

[ethomaz]

if this is the case. same Windows or Linux would not work in both. including the applications.


it would be nice if somebody talk technically about this

Windows and Linux actually has binary compiled code specific for each CPU...

x86 Options (Using the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC))

x86 Options (Using the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC))

gcc.gnu.org

A binary compiled for K10 for example will run faster on K10 CPUs but probably not in Zen 2 CPUs... it can have issues or even run very slowly.

So Windows And Linux avoid that having optimized binaries for all different CPUs in the market from a minimum requirement (they needs to limit legacy support in new releases).

Think like Windows and Linux as being an abstraction layer API like DirectX, OpenGL, Vulkan, etc... they have binary specific for each hardware arch it supports but like all abstraction layers it runs with overhead.

The situation of games on consoles are different and in the PlayStation 4 specific case all games binaries are coded and compiled specifically for the CPU and GPU found in PS4... that means these games can't run in another CPU/GPU arch without have issues.

With that in mind you have two options:

1) MS BC on Xbox One: where they created a hyper visor (like a virtual hardware) that emulates the exactly same CPU and GPU of the system they are emulation.... so all calls from the game binaries run natively in these virtual CPU/GPU and the hyper visor that deals with all the issues in translate that to the instructions that works with the new new CPU/GPU.

2) The BC way round in PS5: Sony asked AMD to create a hardware compatibility level where the CPU/GPU will act exactly how it was on PS4 or PS4 Pro... how AMD archived that is unknown yet but seems like the PS5 APU can run in PS4 and PS4 Pro mode when needed.

That Sony/AMD approach basically eliminate the issues that you can have running the PS4/PS4 Pro game binaries in the new PS5 APU.

Everything is right now?

Nope... there are the game logic issues... game logic are made using different infinite loops and these loops have a tested speed that works synchronized... but what happen when you even using the same PS4 APU mode in PS5 but with higher clocks? Well it can break that synchronism and generate some weird in game issues.

When you run that gaming logic in the Jaguar actual clocks it seems to works like intended but when you run it in a way faster clocks you have to test and in some cases even fix the issues.... that is why Sony and developers needs to test their games to run in PS5 via BC with boosted clocks.

You will say but games in PC runs fine... well games on PC use abstraction layers that avoid these issues and the dev end with a gaming logic that is not the best for any specific arch/hardware but works fine across every one.
Console to get the best performance have coded game logic specific for the arch/hardware it is running so it can have issues in other arch/hardware.

Game logic issues are very weird because you can have issues because it is running too slow or because it is running too fast.

BTW I tried to be very simple is my explain... the things are a lot more complex than that.

 

[Zadom]

Windows and Linux actually has binary compiled code specific for each CPU...

x86 Options (Using the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC))

x86 Options (Using the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC))

gcc.gnu.org

A binary compiled for K10 for example will run faster on K10 CPUs but probably not in Zen 2 CPUs... it can have issues or even run very slowly.

So Windows And Linux avoid that having optimized binaries for all different CPUs in the market from a minimum requirement (they needs to limit legacy support in new releases).

Think like Windows and Linux as being an abstraction layer API like DirectX, OpenGL, Vulkan, etc... they have binary specific for each hardware arch it supports but like all abstraction layers it runs with overhead.

The situation of games on consoles are different and in the PlayStation 4 specific case all games binaries are coded and compiled specifically for the CPU and GPU found in PS4... that means these games can't run in another CPU/GPU arch without have issues.

With that in mind you have two options:

1) MS BC on Xbox One: where they created a hyper visor (like a virtual hardware) that emulates the exactly same CPU and GPU of the system they are emulation.... so all calls from the game binaries run natively in these virtual CPU/GPU and the hyper visor that deals with all the issues in translate that to the instructions that works with the new new CPU/GPU.

2) The BC way round in PS5: Sony asked AMD to create a hardware compatibility level where the CPU/GPU will act exactly how it was on PS4 or PS4 Pro... how AMD archived that is unknown yet but seems like the PS5 APU can run in PS4 and PS4 Pro mode when needed.

That Sony/AMD approach basically eliminate the issues that you can have running the PS4/PS4 Pro game binaries in the new PS5 APU.

Everything is right now?

Nope... there are the game logic issues... game logic are made using different infinite loops and these loops have a tested speed that works synchronized... but what happen when you even using the same PS4 APU mode in PS5 but with higher clocks? Well it can break that synchronism and generate some weird in game issues.

When you run that gaming logic in the Jaguar actual clocks it seems to works like intended but when you run it in a way faster clocks you have to test and in some cases even fix the issues.... that is why Sony and developers needs to test their games to run in PS5 via BC with boosted clocks.

You will say but games in PC runs fine... well games on PC use abstraction layers that avoid these issues and the dev end with a gaming logic that is not the best for any specific arch/hardware but works fine across every one.
Console to get the best performance have coded game logic specific for the arch/hardware it is running so it can have issues in other arch/hardware.

Game logic issues are very weird because you can have issues because it is running too slow or because it is running too fast.

BTW I tried to be very simple is my explain... the things are a lot more complex than that.

I appreciate this answer Ethomaz.

 

[LiquidRex]

Just a reminder for you all...

Sony Job Listing Describes PS5 as 'Upcoming World's Fastest Console'

Gotta go fast

www.pushsquare.com

The PS5 was described as the world's fastest console back in October 2019, before they later removed the claim some days later in the same Job Listing.

 

[user1337]

This is great news. Since older games take roughly the same time to load irrespective of which SSD storage is used (internal, external sata SSD, external nmve SSD), we can use a much cheaper sata SSD to store and play them off of. Leaving the internal SSD for new games.

I'm now even more interested to know how the PS5's USB-C connection may be used with sata SSD, or nvme SSD. Faster transfer rates than standard usb connection may allow it to load older games fast as well.

 

[DeeDogg_]

When I was a teenager I played in a band called Antartica edit: we sucked

Nice

 

[kyliethicc]

This is great news. Since older games take roughly the same time to load irrespective of which SSD storage is used (internal, external sata SSD, extra nmve SSD), we can use a much cheaper data SSD to store and play them off of. Leaving the internal SSD for new games.

I'm now even more interested to know how the PS5's USB-C connection may be used with data SSD, or nvme SSD. Faster transfer rates than standard usb connection may allow it to load older games fast as well.

Good news is both of the USB-A ports on the back of the PS5 are also 10 Gbps, same speed as the USB-C port on the front. So 3 of the 4 ports on PS5 are twice the speed of all PS4 and Xbox USB ports, which are all 5 Gbps, even on the new Xbox Series X.

The only slow USB port (5 Gbps) on the PS5 is the USB-A on the front, which seems to be the intended port for recharging controllers. The USB-C port on the DualSense is also only 5 Gbps, so there's no need to use the 10 Gbps ports for charging.

 

[Orky]

No. Stop spreading lies about PS5 BC. The "top 100 most played titles on the PS4" were the ones already tested for boosted frequency at the time of Cerny's talk, way back in March.

The PS5 has PS4 Pro and PS4 downclock modes for PS4 games that were or weren't patched for the PS4 Pro, respectively. - that is how games run if they haven't been tested for PS5 boosted frequency.

Edit: "not tested" is not accurate. Games that are not stable at boosted frequency will run at downclocked frequencies.

According to the PlayStation store, doesn't sound like all games will be supported. Or that it will "just work". You even need to update your whole ps5 OS to get new PS4 supported title.


Backwards Compatibility:

• "playing PS4 games on PS5, some functionalities available on PS4 may not be available. See www.playstation.com/ps5-backwards-compatibility for more details." (dead link, currently)
• "This PS4 game isn't supported with your PS5's current system software. We're continuing to make more PS4 games playable on PS5. Update your PS5, and then try playing the game"
• "This PS4 game isn't supported with your PS5's current system software. We're continuing to make more PS4 games playable on PS5. Update your PS5, and then try playing the game."
• "PS5 boost mode enabled

 

[FranXico]

I still don't understand why so difficult. the instructions set are the same.

It's called testing. Testing is needed because the same instructions are not guaranteed to result the same way in a new superceeding architecture at higher clock speeds.
Without testing, proper operation is not guaranteed. Any claim that all thr games are going to work just like that would have been dishonest.
Testing allows to determine if a game can use boosted frequency, downclock or if it doesn't work (less frequent, but still possible). Some issues can be averted by patching legacy libraries.

These things are updated in firmware updates.

 

[geordiemp]

I still don't understand why so difficult. the instructions set are the same.

No they are not. Same goes for XSX.

You think the ray tracing api instructions are common between last and this gen, just for a simple example.

There is no ray tracing hardware last gen, so no api to drive it. Add in all the new hardware bits and you have a start.

According to the PlayStation store, doesn't sound like all games will be supported. Or that it will "just work". You even need to update your whole ps5 OS to get new PS4 supported title.


Backwards Compatibility:

• "playing PS4 games on PS5, some functionalities available on PS4 may not be available. See www.playstation.com/ps5-backwards-compatibility for more details." (dead link, currently)
• "This PS4 game isn't supported with your PS5's current system software. We're continuing to make more PS4 games playable on PS5. Update your PS5, and then try playing the game"
• "This PS4 game isn't supported with your PS5's current system software. We're continuing to make more PS4 games playable on PS5. Update your PS5, and then try playing the game."
• "PS5 boost mode enabled

Legallly you must say most unless you test every game every DLC, every add on. Same for both consoles.

Your concern is really poorly thought out, your making yourslelf look stupid and nobody gives a damn about it.#

Concern from xbox users everywhere, lol

 

[FranXico]

According to the PlayStation store, doesn't sound like all games will be supported. Or that it will "just work". You even need to update your whole ps5 OS to get new PS4 supported title.


Backwards Compatibility:

• "playing PS4 games on PS5, some functionalities available on PS4 may not be available. See www.playstation.com/ps5-backwards-compatibility for more details." (dead link, currently)
• "This PS4 game isn't supported with your PS5's current system software. We're continuing to make more PS4 games playable on PS5. Update your PS5, and then try playing the game"
• "This PS4 game isn't supported with your PS5's current system software. We're continuing to make more PS4 games playable on PS5. Update your PS5, and then try playing the game."
• "PS5 boost mode enabled

Error messages for games that might not work or that were not certified yet says nothing about how many are in that situation.
It has been explained many, many times. Nobody, not even MS can claim 100% compatibility. To do so would be disingenuous. See my previous post.

 

[By-mission]

Im trying to understand. PS4 and PS5 are x386 architecture. I don't understand why is soo difficult to play PS4 games on 5.

Anybody can explain better?

Being as simplistic as possible:
The first part games like Uncharted, God of War and Horizon Zero Dawn are programmed to metal ... as an example the GPGPU is a great ally when the poor jaguar is suffocated, the point is that they used it to the extreme, yes even some foliage routines were pushed with the GPGPU, so it's not like pressing a button and turning off those optimizations, they are in the code, at the root of the games. So even if you have a much more capable system, if the codes are not updated things don't work or work very badly. ex: Horizon Zero Dawn on the PC.

 

[xacto]

I've "crunched" alot this year and that overtime money paid for the solar I just put in + more.

I wonder how much of a fit would Jason Schreier throw if he found out that crunch (or "mandatory" crunch, that is) is present in almost all industry? What a shocker, I know!

And when they say "mandatory" that's exactly what it is, unless you have another job lined up, and you're planning to go anyway. But Jason is being Jason, that's what he sells. I would like to welcome him to the real world, but it might be too much for him.

 

[Grinchy]

I wonder how much of a fit would Jason Schreier throw if he found out that crunch (or "mandatory" crunch, that is) is present in almost all industry? What a shocker, I know!

And when they say "mandatory" that's exactly what it is, unless you have another job lined up, and you're planning to go anyway. But Jason is being Jason, that's what he sells. I would like to welcome him to the real world, but it might be too much for him.

You can't blame him for not knowing - he thinks bloggers on the internet have real jobs

 

[LiquidRex]

Looks like PlayStation FAQ has been updated.

 

[Barakov]

According to the PlayStation store, doesn't sound like all games will be supported. Or that it will "just work". You even need to update your whole ps5 OS to get new PS4 supported title.


Backwards Compatibility:

• "playing PS4 games on PS5, some functionalities available on PS4 may not be available. See www.playstation.com/ps5-backwards-compatibility for more details." (dead link, currently)
• "This PS4 game isn't supported with your PS5's current system software. We're continuing to make more PS4 games playable on PS5. Update your PS5, and then try playing the game"
• "This PS4 game isn't supported with your PS5's current system software. We're continuing to make more PS4 games playable on PS5. Update your PS5, and then try playing the game."
• "PS5 boost mode enabled

Hmmm....Looks like I'm keeping my Pro hooked up for a little bit longer.

 

[Sinthor]

I wonder how much of a fit would Jason Schreier throw if he found out that crunch (or "mandatory" crunch, that is) is present in almost all industry? What a shocker, I know!

And when they say "mandatory" that's exactly what it is, unless you have another job lined up, and you're planning to go anyway. But Jason is being Jason, that's what he sells. I would like to welcome him to the real world, but it might be too much for him.

Totally agree. To be fair, it does sound like this is an industry where the 'standard practice' was this crunching. Seems like a lot of devs hire people who will be passionate about the projects and view these as art. So a lot of young folk, properly motivated, will work like crazy and tolerate the 'crunching' a lot more. The problem is, as people get older and have families, this starts to hurt them. So, let them go and hire more young people? Well, then you lose that experience and greater skill level.

People can do these crunches, but when it becomes a standard thing...it starts to hurt people and you either start losing talent or having to move that talent on due to issues. I do hope some of these studios where it's really bad get the issue handled. On another note, don't forget that a lot of these people are HIGHLY PAID for what they do, including the crunches. Look at a guy like Cerny after his years in the industry- buying cars for people and driving Ferrari's, etc. A lot of those other guys do this too. So...if you're making big time money it may be understood you're going to have to deal with crunch. In the end, they all have choices. If the crunch is too much, leave and go to another team.

 

[bhunachicken]

Same for me, Bloodborne seems to be way easier than Dark Souls. Never tried Sekiro though, waiting for the PS5 to come out. But I heard it's quite difficult.

Apparently, it's all about being able to maintain a good rhythm ...

 

[zaitsu]

Looks like PlayStation FAQ has been updated.

When i see your posts, i really think in RL you look just like your avatar. Your avatar, this emoticon you heavily overuse. Perfectly connected

 

[zaitsu]

Apparently, it's all about being able to maintain a good rhythm ...

Yes, sekjro isnt souls game. Its hard rhytm game or dead master level QTE event. I really despise it.

 

[bitbydeath]

According to the PlayStation store, doesn't sound like all games will be supported. Or that it will "just work". You even need to update your whole ps5 OS to get new PS4 supported title.


Backwards Compatibility:

• "playing PS4 games on PS5, some functionalities available on PS4 may not be available. See www.playstation.com/ps5-backwards-compatibility for more details." (dead link, currently)
• "This PS4 game isn't supported with your PS5's current system software. We're continuing to make more PS4 games playable on PS5. Update your PS5, and then try playing the game"
• "This PS4 game isn't supported with your PS5's current system software. We're continuing to make more PS4 games playable on PS5. Update your PS5, and then try playing the game."
• "PS5 boost mode enabled

Do you have a link to that page?

Edit: Never mind, just saw the thread.

 

[SSfox]

I had many jobs that required us to work extra days and or hours. Paid of course, but This is nothing that ONLY happens in game development. When I worked at avionics places, we signed a starting contract that required mandatory over time and they asked us to do the 7th day. "crunch" happens in many places. Not to say there are not instances of over work and other issues, but 6 days is no big story.

Jason grew in a cotton bed, he obviously doesn't seem to know what real work in real life is.

I recently watched a documentary about one of the dancers that worked with Michael Jackson, and how it was difficult but satisfying in the end, guess Jason would also call this crunch.

 

[zubairali2]

getting a feeling we might see the UI before this week ends....