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Next-gen Racing Graphics Face-off | (Next-gen means current-gen)
- Thread starter Gestault
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Duallusion
Member
Except DriveClub isn't "stuttery" and, while we're on the subject of brilliant 30fps racers, neither is Forza Horizon or PGR4.
I'm sorry you find 30fps "stuttery" or a "slideshow" or whatever ridiculous term gets thrown around here way too often but you're not stating any objective fact no matter how many words you bold.
Maybe the new VR wave will slowly kill these pesky 30fps slideshows you hate so much but until then you'll have to keep on wondering how millions of people can actually play these horrible stuttery abominations.
My guess (based on personal experience) is it's because they don't actually find them stuttery and can switch between 60fps and 30fps games without much of a problem. Maybe we're some sort of mutants or something.
NullPointer
Member
Can't speak to PGR4 but yeah, neither DriveClub or Horizon have stutter. They're both as smooth and as locked as 30fps gets.
Except DriveClub isn't "stuttery" and, while we're on the subject of brilliant 30fps racers, neither is Forza Horizon or PGR4.
I'm sorry you find 30fps "stuttery" or a "slideshow" or whatever ridiculous term gets thrown around here way too often but you're not stating any objective fact no matter how many words you bold.
Maybe the new VR wave will slowly kill these pesky 30fps slideshows you hate so much but until then you'll have to keep on wondering how millions of people can actually play these horrible stuttery abominations.
My guess (based on personal experience) is it's because they don't actually find them stuttery and can switch between 60fps and 30fps games without much of a problem. Maybe we're some sort of mutants or something.
30fps is slow and I've demonstrated compared to other standards especially if we are talking lightboost lcd vs a typical 60fps/30fps or 30hz/60hz. There are videos on youtube shot with high speed cameras to show you why but even after years of this debate people think their own bias is the only one. Yes hyperbole on the subject is annoying but plenty of gamers since the 90s have made complaints on how slow fps feels compared to 60fps.
Some people don't like switching acting as if it's not a problem or it doesn't cause one is equally ridiculous as saying playing 30fps is a slideshow. I don't say it's that cause most slideshow don't even reach 5 but the motion people talk about can easily be seen in the video I leave here.
VR can't work at lower frames cause it doesn't immerse so most of my crowd will be happy to be free of the hell of bad frames or at the least in a more manageable place.
PGR4 gets plenty stuttery at times. It doesn't really belong in the same sort of 30fps convo as FH2 and DC.
Duallusion
Member
I didn't say some people don't or shouldn't have a problem with 30fps; they clearly do,
since a day doesn't seem to go by without at least somebody reminding us of this fact
What some people should though is finally accept that not all of us have a problem with it and it's not just because we haven't played a 60fps game before or because we're some sort of gaming peasants without standards who don't know better.
The only objective fact is that the *exact* same game (with exact features and graphics settings) is better at 60fps then at 30fps. That's it. When you start factoring in benefits and trade-offs though (as we're seeing - and not seeing - in the DC vs F6 debate, for example), 60fps isn't objectively better anymore. Some prefer this, some prefer that, some don't mind this, some hate that, whatever. There's no such thing as a superior preference ("superior" being another very popular word around these parts for all the wrong reasons); certainly not in this or any other gaming-related debate.
Slightly more on topic: I can appreciate both DC and Forza (4th being my last one since I don't have an XB1 yet:/) for different reasons. It's all about benefits and trade-offs but in this particular thread though, I'd give the nod to DC (irregardless of F6's better framerate being "part" of graphics or a feature or whatever).
Duallusion
Member
It's been a long time since I played it so, yeah, I basically remember it as if it was running in 4K at 60fps.
Here's a picture of my bush.
That actually looks fantastic. Most of the tree's and foliage from other gameplay screens I've seen look like the typical poor looking stuff we see in most sim racers (except where the motion blur has blurred them out), but that tree right there is a looker.
Here's a picture of my bush.
Very nice.
Well said
Here's a picture of my bush.
Holy shit, that looks amazing!
Hmm, it's not rock solid like DC and FH, indeed. PGR4 has its framedips, but I don't remember any stuttering, and I surely know a stutter when I see one, since my old PC was plagued by this shit. I'll take a look at it now.
EDIT: played it for quite a bit and saw no stuttering, but there is some heavy drops in frame rate under heavy storms.
I didn't say some people don't or shouldn't have a problem with 30fps; they clearly do,since a day doesn't seem to go by without at least somebody reminding us of this fact
What some people should though is finally accept that not all of us have a problem with it and it's not just because we haven't played a 60fps game before or because we're some sort of gaming peasants without standards who don't know better.
The only objective fact is that the *exact* same game (with exact features and graphics settings) is better at 60fps then at 30fps. That's it. When you start factoring in benefits and trade-offs though (as we're seeing - and not seeing - in the DC vs F6 debate, for example), 60fps isn't objectively better anymore. Some prefer this, some prefer that, some don't mind this, some hate that, whatever. There's no such thing as a superior preference ("superior" being another very popular word around these parts for all the wrong reasons); certainly not in this or any other gaming-related debate.
Slightly more on topic: I can appreciate both DC and Forza (4th being my last one since I don't have an XB1 yet:/) for different reasons. It's all about benefits and trade-offs but in this particular thread though, I'd give the nod to DC (irregardless of F6's better framerate being "part" of graphics or a feature or whatever).
Like what benefits? 30fps destroys clarity unless you like static images you lose visual information and it kills response, that objective not subjective. Whether it affects you or how is another matter. You will rarely have a 1 to 1 of exact assets and any technology behind them at 60fps vs 30fps the cost is clear and devs have talked about it for 3 gens straight now. Nor would they look the same because at 60fps the image would be more clear.
No frames no graphics you would have a still image otherwise so it's part of graphics. Seeing people dismiss or not really get the influence fps, color depth, or resolution is infuriating not cause of some superior argument cause games wouldn't exist if that kind of tech wasn't there to begin with.
When I advocate any frames I want consistency not a peak be it 30fps 60fps or 120/144fps.
Stillmatic
Member
Here's a picture of my bush.
If that's not a 2D sprite I'm impressed. But it looks like it is.
This is a great post.
t_wilson01
Member
Well said.Except DriveClub isn't "stuttery" and, while we're on the subject of brilliant 30fps racers, neither is Forza Horizon or PGR4.
I'm sorry you find 30fps "stuttery" or a "slideshow" or whatever ridiculous term gets thrown around here way too often but you're not stating any objective fact no matter how many words you bold.
Maybe the new VR wave will slowly kill these pesky 30fps slideshows you hate so much but until then you'll have to keep on wondering how millions of people can actually play these horrible stuttery abominations.
My guess (based on personal experience) is it's because they don't actually find them stuttery and can switch between 60fps and 30fps games without much of a problem. Maybe we're some sort of mutants or something.
NullPointer
Member
The overhead to enable large open worlds in the case of a Horizon or The Crew, and features like global illumination and incredibly detailed cars and environments and atmospherics in the case of DriveClub, all while maintaining a perfectly consistent framerate.
Its a trade-off, with benefits and drawbacks with either choice.
Summer Haze
Banned
Here's a picture of my bush.
ohh yeaaahh.
Ill say it again.
We already got to a point where car models look great on pretty much all games. Now the battle will be how tracks look and feel (textures, track side geometry, environmental properties etc.)
I don't find these two points to be particularly true. Both F6 and DC lack any kind of decent AF, so the road texture detail is already lost for the majority of the screen, and this is on top of the motion blur in which case you won't be able to discern any micro details when the cars are in motion anyway.
And DC actually has some pretty great road textures, you just have to view them from the top down view like in Shandy's shots.
nkarafo
Member
When you say it isn't stuttery, is that a fact? Or it's indeed stuttery but it doesn't bother you as much? Because i played it and i could tell its a 30fps game and as the scenery was passing by, i could see the gaps between frames. It does bother me, personally, and i notice it. So maybe you are using some kind of motion filter on your TV that smooths out the movement? I'm pretty sure these can cause artifacts and a lot of input lag.
If not, then there is a stutter. Like in all fast paced 30fps games. It's ok if it doesn't bother you, i wish it didn't bother me too because i would be able to enjoy a lot of games that now i can't.
I wish i wasn't spoiled by all these 6th gen 60fps console racers... : /
Yautja_Warrior
Member
I can't see any stutter in DriveClub. Being a big movie person, I have all the post processing stuff on my TV turned off, for pure picture quality, so no motion smoothing or any of that crap and there is definitely no stutter whatsoever on DriveClub.
Maybe it could be down to different TV's, as some TV's handle certain framerates better than others, for example a lot of Samsung TV's don't support 24p properly, which results in judder when watching a blu-ray in it's correct 24fps format.
ShutterMunster
Junior Member
fuck, you must hate movies then.
I gotta get back into DC. There's been so much content from the season pass I haven't played. I kind of fell off the last few months.
M_A_C
Member
I use a Panasonic Plasma, which really makes frame drops apparent in Game Mode, and I agree, Driveclub is amazingly smooth. Sometimes it's hard to believe it's only 30fps.
We've been over this before early on in the thread with a comparison between DC and FH2. Clarity of image is not at all DC's strong point, with road detail being very unclear even at standstill from any ingame angle, and turning to soup as soon as any motion is applied. Road details on Driveclub as a result actually focus primarily on macro details instead (such as cracks, pebbles etc) for detail, as these larger details remain more easily discernible. If you compare your DC image to one of shandy's FM6 images even when pointing the camera straight down there's a very obvious difference in micro detail. The road surface in your Driveclub image is more comparable to the rough rubble patch in the Forza image, and the outer patch on the DC image already beings to look very indistinct even at this angle. The difference when you actually see either of these surfaces in game is significantly more dramatic.. and they're not both affected the same way in motion, as despite utilizing motion blur also, details remain far more noticeable in FM6.. likely because there isn't twice the amount time passing between the frames that are being blended. This is actually another reason why I think claiming framerate and graphics are separate entities is ridiculous.
Driveclub's (and PGR's) focus on macro details extends beyond simple road surfaces as well. It's why tuffs of grass in Driveclub are freakishly large (you can almost imagine Link pulling them up in a search for Rupees) to mask how sporadicly placed they are on a otherwise very obvious flat surface. It's why the rain on the windscreen (and game camera) leaves impossibly large droplets, with incredibly exaggerated motion. Don't get me wrong these are GOOD artistic choices, they employ the same hyperreal stylings that PGR did in other to create the illusion of realism (much like a Hollywood film), despite being very unrealistic in actuality. All these things sit perfectly in the sweet spot to be still visually prominent in a gif, but also appear higher fidelity. The more realistically scaled grass the populates many of the tracks in FM6 become invisible when shrunk/compressed, despite being clearly discernible in game even at 150mph.
Now, I realise this is an awful lot of text, with no comparison images of my own to back them up. I apologise for that.. it honestly wasn't my intention. I actually did run off to cap some shots of both FM6 and Driveclub to illustrate my point, but discovered that I actually couldn't take any non-photomode shots of FM6 currently. I'd be happy to return to this when the game is officially launched and I can grab some decent shots of how these details tend to appear in game, but I'm seriously not about to accept any claims of image clarity and micro detail between the two being at all close... that's the sort of suggestion that would lead me to question if someone ever actually sees both games in person, rather than just through threads like this (populated with gifs and youtube links). Even details on the car (I selected the KTM X-Bow on both) immediately jump out, with the paintwork showing very noticeable blurred pixels in DC , whilst appearing perfectly crisp in FM6. The default manufacturer paintjob in DC is not actually even remotely competitive with the lower fidelity custom paintjobs in FM6 (I checked that too).
No wonder GT7 takes ages to develop. I say let them take their time and work their magic.
nkarafo
Member
No, not at all. What does that have to do with games? Different thing.
Cereal Enthusiast
Banned
Gran Turismo 6 ?
Damn. Can't wait to see what GT7 looks like.
Kaz Yamauchi is in this video (from the PS4 reveal)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hjx2Sd52U4
It means they're working on it since at least (probably even earlier) early 2013. 3 years of development already.
Right, it seems we're all using the term "stutter" to describe different things here.
To answer DD, I was using the term stutter to refer to the heavy framerate drops he cites, because they're irregular causing apparent judder (we're probably going to have a similar issue with this word too lol) in the game's motion (frame pacing varies seemingly at random). As an extreme example, I would use the term also to describe Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast which frequently snapped between 30fps and 60fps locked in a binary manner. I wouldn't however typically use the word to refer to a game with a constant low locked framerate (say something horrific like 15fps). I'm guessing that DD's idea of stutter is more along the lines of what frequently happens on Elite Dangerous when making a hyperspace jump, where the game appears to actually lock up or skip a batch of frames intermittently. This is probably the most common use of the term in regards to gaming I guess, and I agree that PGR4 doesn't suffer from this.
nkarafo appears to not be referring to any irregularities in the frame pacing, and simply refers to the game's motion as a whole as stuttery. This is a less common usage than either of the two previous examples, but what he means should be clear enough. The game's motion is being defined by a rapid series of static images. If the rate of these images is not rapid enough, then it's possible to recognise each individual image separate from one another. People will have different tolerances for this, but in general the more 60fps gaming you play, the less immune to noticing the individual frames in 30fps games you're likely to be. I'm not that sensitive to this in general for example, but I just got done switching between FM6 and Driveclub on different inputs, and the contrast made it very easy to notice Driveclub's frame by frame motion. It wasn't at all convincing of natural motion, and I can imagine if everything I was playing was running at 60fps, then 30fps games are something I would then avoid like the plague. As primarily a console gamer however, this'll probably never actually be a serious issue for me.
nkarafo
Member
Thank you, at least someone got what i'm talking about.
Although maybe it's my fault cause i can't express my self perfectly sometimes, with my not so perfect english.
Yes it is from the goodwood track
and yes probably PD are working on GT7 from that period... do you remember the PD scan at the L.M. Giannetti before that GT6 was announced? those premium cars never appeared in GT6.....
I was actually talking about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_stuttering
A had a PC with this crap. It didn't matter if Fraps was showing 60 FPS at the corner of the screen, it never felt a silk smooth 60 FPS rendering. It as as if the GPU was skipping frames or something like that. It's not like a simple framerate drop. It's awful. :c
EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb3MsENJ-fU
OccamsLightsaber
Regularly boosts GAF member count to cry about 'right wing gaf' - Voter #3923781
HOW? How is that possible?
A dev cycle that doesn't force them to plonk out a game every two years.
Foutrologue
Banned
It's a simple 2D Texture with a real photo as a source like 90% of the textures in games. This has been around since the 80s...it's a fairly high res nothing much (just like Forza 5/6/H2, DC,P.Cars or any other game released in the pas years...
The hyperbole in this thread is mind numbing..
TheAdmiester
Member
You say that like Forza doesn't have extremely impressive textures. That GT picture is entirely texture. Yes, it's rather high res but I don't see what's so special about it.
What's impressive about that GT6 texture is that it was done on hardware with 490 or less ram split. It's a testament to the dev on limited hardware. You can undermine it by calling it a "texture" but that's it every game. Things get interesting when normal maps and POM's are used so the textures could interact with the level's lighting which are more expensive than just snapping a picture of a patch of grass and pasting it on a poly. In the latter case, the entire texture gets lit rather than specific pixels catching light.
Normal maps like that Driveclub one can cost 4 to 8 times the memory and eat into processing power. It's not about pixel density but how the texture sits in the world's lighting. I find it funny how many straws are grasped to discredit Driveclub in this thread. You can search the track to find the perfect texture in Forza 6 but then what about those grass textures posted in this page? It is significantly lower in resolution than that flagship texture of the road.
Normal maps like that Driveclub one can cost 4 to 8 times the memory and eat into processing power. It's not about pixel density but how the texture sits in the world's lighting. I find it funny how many straws are grasped to discredit Driveclub in this thread. You can search the track to find the perfect texture in Forza 6 but then what about those grass textures posted in this page? It is significantly lower in resolution than that flagship texture of the road.
Tripolygon
Banned
You are ridiculous.
But in the same sentence, nothing is special about that GT picture.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Are there any framerate tests of PCars on console post 3.0 Patch?
TheAdmiester
Member
...I don't think I'm the one being ridiculous when you're coming here dissecting quotes for no reason. It's a thread discussing graphics, not an English lesson.
The fact of the matter is that those textures are on Goodwood, a very short track that can only have one car at a time. The devs have much, much, much more headroom for fancy textures on that track, so of course it's going to have high-res assets when they have more resources free to manage.
You're conveniently glossing over the fact that it's running on a last-gen system and still boasts these very impressive textures. It's a testament to PD's craft.
TheAdmiester
Member
Yes, they're impressive, but like I said, they're not hugely special. The system has a lot more free resources on that track. Since it's able to load higher res assets into the extra free memory, then of course PD will seize that opportunity and make the track prettier than most.
All I'm saying is that your quote:
Is implying that Forza's textures aren't great, which they are. I'm not glossing over anything, I'm just explaining why that track in particular is seemingly so detailed.
It's pretty amusing that's for sure. I'm starting to doubt the credibility of many of his Driveclub posts as well now, which seemed iffy in the first place anyway. No sense of weight, cars too grippy to ever feel traction loss, rubber band AI etc. None of which is true of course, as further evidenced by the numerous responses he got in disagreement of the said posts. Hell, anyone who's put some time in to the game knows these things aren't true, as a matter of fact.
Tripolygon
Banned
Na i'm saying you are ridiculous because your comment is ridiculous. On one hand Forza has extremely impressive textures but the GT picture is just entirely texture, its high resolution texture just as impressive as the one in Forza, oh but there is nothing special about it. When clearly it shows how masterful polyphony are at their craft. Now you take it a step further and say, that track can only have one car at a time so the dev have much much more headroom for fancy texture as if that makes the texture work any less impressive (mind you this is on PS3 with less powerful gpu than Xbox360 but they have to make use of the notoriously hard Cell to compensate and less than 500MB of Ram).
I'm not trying to teach you English i'm just pointing out the rather weird way you phrased your thought.
Tripolygon
Banned
It is impressive, compared to the hardware it is running on and what we had a generation before. If it were simple, many devs would have just as impressive texture work in all their games. We've been gawking at impressive texture work and polygons since the advent of video games.
It is a photograph of the ground used as a texture, how is it impressive exactly?
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