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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
- Thread starter Snakeyes
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Well, yeah, Street Fighter and MvC are fighting games. Sakurai describes Smash Bros. as an "action" game. It even says "Genre: Action" on the official site.
Acerac
Banned
I'm an ex-tourney player. I've had an account on smash boards since 04 or so and have traveled hundreds of miles for tournaments. I have respect for Brawl for what it attempted to be... but I think it's obvious that what it attempted to be was a rather casual experience.
It's a great party game. It just has no pretense of trying to be a competitive fighting game.
*Edit* I lied, my account was made in May 05. Not like it matters, I've been going to tourneys before I had my account there.
fwiw, one can prefer a simplified experience.
which smash bros never was in the first place. it's a party game.
which smash bros never was in the first place. it's a party game.
Nocturnowl
Member
You know I was trying to think of a way to explain my thoughts on this matter but I think you did a good enough job here, to add to your point about those who maybe don't quite understand the point of smash bros I can say that damn near all the people i've known in real life that loved melee and hate brawl have no real love for the whole Nintendo melting pot aspect of Smash Bros. This doesn't mean that disliking Brawl is exclusive to that group of people but i've certainly noticed a correlation.
I love all 3 SSB games, I think melee has the best gameplay yet I like Brawl the most, Brawl gives me some of my most wanted characters like Ike and Dedede, a Yoshi's Island stage and even more content, to me the additions more than make up for the loss of depth.
Plus it goes both ways, Brawl fixes some aspects of melee that I didn't like. Hell I even like the slowed down gameplay, a nice middle ground between 64 and melee.
This isn't to say that there's anything wrong with playing the competitive route as I can appreciate that angle as well, I can happily hop between a frantic item fracas with four players on Spear Pillar and then have a one on one no items match on battlefield. Thing is some choose one angle over the other, in the case of Brawl the casual side won out, they got more tools of craziness, more power, more gimmick stages and so on. So those on the other side of the coin go to exaggerated outcries against it since the direction was not as they wanted, throw the crazy hype into the mix as well and you overly dramatic statements on a damn near unprecedented level from some individuals.
Ideally the next game can appease both sides but considering that Smash is likely angled towards being party madness first and serious fighter second you never know how things will turn out. I think i've veered off track here, I guess my point is Brawl is fine really even if it did lose depth.
No, it's definitely an amazing game with tons of content. I think some people are a little blinded by the gameplay change that they miss that it's still one of the best party games out there. I may like Melee's "feel" more but I'd probably pull out Brawl for local multiplayer just because it has way more options.
Acerac
Banned
Not saying Brawl is bad. Just that it is not a competitive fighting game. If people don't like make 1 mistake and you die cut your friend's throat kind of gameplay, then that's fine.
Some of us prefer that intensity and speed.
The final result of Melee surely wasn't what the devs intended.
There seems to be two big Smash Bros. camps: those of us who love Nintendo and its history and see Smash Bros. as a fan service party game, and those who don't particularly care about Nintendo and would rather just use the games as yet another competitive fighting platform. Neither side is necessarily right (or wrong), but it's amusing that such a separation exists. As far as video games go, Smash Bros. is unique in that its sandbox nature has spawned such diverse schools of fandom.
Not saying Brawl is bad. Just that it is not a competitive fighting game. If people don't like make 1 mistake and you die cut your friend's throat kind of gameplay, then that's fine.
Some of us prefer that intensity and speed.
What does this even mean? I know you know that it is being played as one by a sizable community. The evidence is there, I don't know why anyone would take your (or anyone else's words/definitions) over what is actually happening.
Acerac
Banned
You're right, the way I phrased it was regrettable. I should have said I found it to be less suited to be a competitive game due to certain changes in gameplay mechanics, such as changes to shield stun and generally slower gameplay. This makes for a game that is (in my opinion) less fun to play and to view, which is very unhelpful for a community.
You are quite correct when you say people play Brawl competitively. People also play competitive Rock Paper Scissors. While I'm not equating the two games, the fact that people play games competitively does not necessarily make them optimal for competitive play.
I just want to clarify that I loved everything about Brawl other than the way the online was set up and the mechanics of the fighting itself.
Professor Beef
Banned
If there's one thing I hate, it's the "is Smash a fighting game" debate because it's not even a debate in the first place. It's a long-winded argument from people who don't like Smash trying to legitimize an insult.
Good ol' rock. Nothing beats that!
Good ol' rock. Nothing beats that!
Acerac
Banned
You're right. I should remember that Smash was meant to be a casual fighting game and that Melee was a lucky mistake. There's nothing wrong with saying one or the other is better suited for competitive play, but placing them in to a separate genre like I've done is a dick move. I'll refrain from doing so in the future.
Poor predictable Bart.
Back to SSB4, the recurring Smash Bros. roster element I find missing in most prediction lists (including my own) is the "transformation/tandem" character.
Melee
Brawl
These types of characters are usually among the more unexpected, but who is left for Sakurai to possibly exhaust in SSB4? I'm having a hard time coming up with anything remotely plausible. Some possibilities:
I think most of us would agree that a character(s) of this ilk will be featured in the new game.
Melee
- Zelda/Sheik - transformation
- Ice Climbers - two characters fighting at once
Brawl
- Samus/Zero Suit Samus - transformation
- Pokémon Trainer - 3-in-1 transformation
- [CUT] Dixie & Diddy - tag team
- [CUT] Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik - transformation
- [CUT] Plusle & Minun - presumably two characters fighting at once like Ice Climbers
These types of characters are usually among the more unexpected, but who is left for Sakurai to possibly exhaust in SSB4? I'm having a hard time coming up with anything remotely plausible. Some possibilities:
- A Mallow and Geno tag team character utilizing a mechanic similar to what Diddy and Dixie would have used. The down special move would swap between the lead characters, with the one in the back just following along and watching the action. These two characters could obviously work as stand-alones, but this mechanic would help emulate the general turn-based "feel" of an RPG.
- Similarly, a 3-in-1 character swapping between a Ninja, White Mage, and Black Mage. The effort involved in creating three unique characters probably wouldn't be worth it, though.
- A rival Pokémon Trainer, N, or somebody along those lines. This sort of character would undermine the original Pokémon Trainer's uniqueness to me, though, and like the Final Fantasy party, it might be a waste of precious time.
- A mini Advance Wars unit of sorts with an Infantry and Mech or something. Maybe a CO could stand in the background to issue commands like the Pokémon Trainer.
- Doc Louis could appear in the background of Little Mac's fights, and if you approach him and use your down special move, he'd come over and give you advice for a brief power-up. This seems implausible for moving stages, though.
I think most of us would agree that a character(s) of this ilk will be featured in the new game.
Nocturnowl
Member
I'll never get this argument, it's as if some are so desperate to disqualify it from being in the same genre as the games they prefer. Assuming they take the party game genre approach I wonder what their thoughts and naming criteria are on anime based fighting games and the like?
Hot Coldman
Banned
When discussing game genres, the losers are the ones who are discussing game genres
This. Each Smash Bros. is really different, and I love the three games.
Also something I liked about 64 and Brawl but was missing in Melee (And I don't know the name of that "effect", I don't even know if it was missing in Melee, but I didn't notice it) is, for example, when you do Mario Tornado, the enemy gets "stuck" in the tornado hits(64 and Brawl) and it feels like the game freezes the characters for each hit, but in Melee you only fly off, no "combo", no stop-like animation. How do you call that effect? or what is that? , maybe I'm just imagining things but that's what I noticed, and I like that freeze animation thingy.
I wonder if there would be any Eternal Darkness stuff with the rumors of ED2 coming out. I know Nintendo seems to favor internally developed stuff for Smash but it would be nice to see.
Maybe a bizarre Rhythm Heaven character that switches to other stuff to make different beats as attacks. (I dunno, I think Rhythm Heaven will just get a stage though)
Maybe a bizarre Rhythm Heaven character that switches to other stuff to make different beats as attacks. (I dunno, I think Rhythm Heaven will just get a stage though)
Justin Timberlake
Member
To get this out of the way: it does not matter what the developer's intent was when determining a game's quality (or genre). Regardless of what the developers wanted, Melee is an incredible competitive game with intracacies that no game of its kind even attempts. Probing Sakurai's mind and trying to figure out exactly what his vision was is important for historical purposes, but has no bearing on the end result; you judge a game by its contents.
There have been numerous interviews where Sakurai has hinted that much of the advanced metagame was intended, and its fairly obvious when going into the debug menu or breaking down the assembly that there is a guiding hand at play but thats not the point: it makes no difference to me if HAL was actually trying to make a samurai puzzle platformer and somehow pooped out Melee, I'm just happy that they did.
When I play games, I don't read the manual. I don't fly to the developer's office and ask them what I should be doing. I rarely look at guides. I test the game engine's limits, explore the game world, and look for fun and enjoyable aspects. Maybe I'll speedrun, maybe I'll play competitively, who knows. Melee happens to have an incredible competitive multiplayer aspect to it, and I wouldn't deprive myself of that because of what some suits in Japan think.
Ah, but you see, its not that we don't understand what smash is, but that we have different definitions. I view smash as a game which is predicated on a revolutionary & reactive combo system, with a unique win condition unlike any in the genre (the edge game). Its movement style is fluid and lacks limitation, and a balance of offense and defense imposed by the fundamental aggressive and defensive options given to each player. You make the comparison to Street Fighter, but it is exactly the differences to traditional fighting games that make competitive players love Smash so much.
With Brawl, everything I mentioned gets butchered. The combo system literally does not exist. The win condition is there, but with the removal of effective edgeguarding options, the reality makes it more like a standard health bar. You literally trip if you try to move too much, and you float so long in the air that nothing is fluid and everything is slow. Defensive play dominates and aggressive players have no place in the metagame.
As I previously mentioned, I don't place much value in fanservice. I'm a Nintendo fan, but I'm not going to buy or enjoy a game just because it is made by them. You may view Smash as a vast compendium of Nintendo fanservice, and thats a fine interpretation, but I see the series differently.
There have been numerous interviews where Sakurai has hinted that much of the advanced metagame was intended, and its fairly obvious when going into the debug menu or breaking down the assembly that there is a guiding hand at play but thats not the point: it makes no difference to me if HAL was actually trying to make a samurai puzzle platformer and somehow pooped out Melee, I'm just happy that they did.
When I play games, I don't read the manual. I don't fly to the developer's office and ask them what I should be doing. I rarely look at guides. I test the game engine's limits, explore the game world, and look for fun and enjoyable aspects. Maybe I'll speedrun, maybe I'll play competitively, who knows. Melee happens to have an incredible competitive multiplayer aspect to it, and I wouldn't deprive myself of that because of what some suits in Japan think.
Ah, but you see, its not that we don't understand what smash is, but that we have different definitions. I view smash as a game which is predicated on a revolutionary & reactive combo system, with a unique win condition unlike any in the genre (the edge game). Its movement style is fluid and lacks limitation, and a balance of offense and defense imposed by the fundamental aggressive and defensive options given to each player. You make the comparison to Street Fighter, but it is exactly the differences to traditional fighting games that make competitive players love Smash so much.
With Brawl, everything I mentioned gets butchered. The combo system literally does not exist. The win condition is there, but with the removal of effective edgeguarding options, the reality makes it more like a standard health bar. You literally trip if you try to move too much, and you float so long in the air that nothing is fluid and everything is slow. Defensive play dominates and aggressive players have no place in the metagame.
As I previously mentioned, I don't place much value in fanservice. I'm a Nintendo fan, but I'm not going to buy or enjoy a game just because it is made by them. You may view Smash as a vast compendium of Nintendo fanservice, and thats a fine interpretation, but I see the series differently.
I played Brawl competitively. Was ranked in my region and either placed high in singles or won teams consistently. After a while, I got sick of the time outs and top 8 consisting entirely of MK and just decided to move on to Melee. Brawl's metagame hit its peak in the first year.... Melee is still evolving.
pfft
Brawl doesn't have Dreamland. Therefore worse.
Brawl has quantity. Melee has quality. An entire soundtrack of orchestrated themes. Sublime. Brawl has a butchered remix of Stickerbrush Symphony, that alone makes it worse.
Brawl doesn't have Mewtwo. WORSE!
okay Brawl has a better roster
LOOOOOOOOOOOOL what is with your name?
Otherwise, great post. People always seem to name things other than gameplay as pros for Brawl.
For what it's worth, Brawl is by far my most played game on Wii, and probably one of my top 5 favorite game of the gen after Galaxy 2, Dark Souls, Marvel and a couple others... it's just the most disappointing game of all time. I will forever be salty about it.
I've never understood the argument that because Melee soundtrack was all orchestra (even though it wasn't) it is better. Brawl was refreshing because it had a variety of genres and quite frankly orchestral music is overdone. Give me gospel, give me jive, give me something you don't see is every other game.
Talking of music what are some song that people would be pleased to see arranged? It would be nice to see the GameBoy gets some more love since hearing these old songs redone with modern technology is half the appeal of the soundtrack.
One song I like is Blimp Off from Donkey Kong Land.
Talking of music what are some song that people would be pleased to see arranged? It would be nice to see the GameBoy gets some more love since hearing these old songs redone with modern technology is half the appeal of the soundtrack.
One song I like is Blimp Off from Donkey Kong Land.
Do you go around spouting this line off often? Because I can't imagine you could say something so wrong and not expect to get called out on it. But just case no one else has told you yet. You're wrong.
-Anything from Rhythm Heaven would make for crazy remixes.
-An arranged Balloon Kid stage 1 theme would be good for an Ice Climber or Balloon Fighter stage.
-An orchested version of the Nazo no Murasame Jō theme.
-An updated Wario World Greenhorn Forest theme.
Nocturnowl
Member
I get where you're coming from, genre and composer variety is certainly a good thing but i'm going to give melee the nod for music, I just feel the music is of a more consistent quality.
Now as for music additions, well i've been thinking of maybe going through each series in semi regular intervals since we have so much time on our hands here playing the waiting game but for now i'll just throw out Cascade Capers (DKC3 GBA).
I need this in non GBA sound quality, they had the perfect stage type in Brawl for it being a waterfall and all but nooooo, they gave me a craptacular DK series music selection with a questionable Stickerbrush Symphony remix and another million DK island swing mixes.
And the stage sucked.
Acerac
Banned
How's that Metaknight ban been working out? I'd expect it'd really throw the tournament scene for a loop.
When you ban a god tier character the metagame has to evolve!
I'll give you that. In fact I said earlier that the next game would probably benefit from having a smaller focused soundtrack. There didn't seem to be much thought given to the selection of the non arranged songs. Thank God for the music option screen (and homebrew).
That's a nice idea. Always fun to discover songs you may not have appreciated the first time round.
Smash Bros Wii U prediction. Donkey Kong gets another jungle stage along with the return of one of his jungle stages from a previous game (and knowing our luck its Rumble Falls), has a at least three remixes of DK Island Swing, none of which even spice up the long intro, despite the word swing in the title.
Another song for the pile:
Game and Watch Gallery - Manhole
Shame I can't find the arranged version that I inserted into Brawl on YouTube. Only Octopus seems to have uploaded.
Nocturnowl
Member
There were some really odd choices for those non arranged tracks, GBA quality Rainbow Route from Kirby was dying for a remix instead, Village of the Blue Maiden from Four Swords was repetitive and not that great anyway. And then there's Sonic's selection, yeah they completely missed the mark there.
Well I'll keep the idea in mind then, there's still tons of great music untouched by the smash series, of course it helps that there have been many good soundtracks since Brawl. Though most of my favourites don't fit fighting that well.
And another three versions of 25M music because apparently we needed more than one version of such a long and varied song.
Well okay one version did at least bring the DK series theme in which is pure awesome.
I find myself turning off a huge chunk of music in Brawl. Would have never dreamed of turning off music in Melee. Why is there two different versions of Area 6? Was that really necessary? Star Fox has a bunch of great tunes to choose from.
But, like you, homebrew has kinda taken over at this point. So I have to thank Sakurai for giving us so many slots to replace music with haha
You know there's a problem when the best Snake player in the world has to change to Meta Knight to keep up.
I know is Olimar got better. When I played, he was shit tier. Besides that, as far as I can understand, it was and still is complete global saturation by Meta Knight. Tier list hasn't changed much since the very first one.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Professor Beef
Banned
With the exception of Rich Brown and maybe another player, Olimar is still kinda bad.
Professor Beef
Banned
Nocturnowl
Member
More like GeNO!
I was at Apex and the Japanese Olimar player was fucking everyone up. Nietono was it?
Definitely better than another MGS character if Konami wanted another guest in.
Chet Rippo
Member
Professor Beef
Banned
I don't remember. I wasn't really paying attention to Apex at all that weekend since I was at a local for a tournament. I only heard about the aftermath.
Don't forget Niko Bellic.
Is there really any need to be salty about it though? I mean, I can understand Brawl disappointing you for all the reasons you (and others) have stated, but if it's one of your favourites for the last half-decade, it seems weird that you would be salty about it.
Not calling you out or anything, that comment just struck me as odd. All your reasons for finding Melee are valid, even if I disagree on some.
hahaha.
Nocturnowl
Member
It was okay, it was probably the most remix like of all the remixed tracks, it takes a sharp turn away from the original songs content for like the first half, suddenly remembers it was supposed to be a Stickerbrush Symphony remix and quickly gets back round to the main melody before the looping point. It's unique and well done in truth, i'd just have preferred something more similar to the original in this case.
Now if there was a truly disappointing arrangement for me it was Zero-Two, talk about losing the whole tone of the original.
Chet Rippo
Member
Who said that?
darkpaladinmfc
Member
Because even though the game is awesome, it could be so much better.
Too OC Remix for my taste, which is basically slang for what Nocturnowl said.
It certainly was no Mario Bros. Now that's what I call an arrangement.
Nocturnowl
Member
To Brawls musical credit it took a track that I am beyond tired of due to overuse and made the best and most oddly funky version of it yet.
That being the SMB Underground theme. Seriously though Nintnedo need to stop putting it in EVERY Mario game, whether a sport spin off or board game outing it always sneaks in somehow, it's had more use than the overworld from SMB at this point.
That being the SMB Underground theme. Seriously though Nintnedo need to stop putting it in EVERY Mario game, whether a sport spin off or board game outing it always sneaks in somehow, it's had more use than the overworld from SMB at this point.
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