• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition

Status
Not open for further replies.

KevinCow

Banned
Heck no to those two. Brawl's air dodge system accomplishes better air defense part. Besides landing and some very specific situations direction air dodging isn't missed.

Smash 64 had no air defense. Melee had the one-time use air dodge that put you into a fall state. Brawl's air dodge was better, but you still have clearly inferior defensive options in air than on ground.

What would be wrong with air shielding?


Also on the subject of defensive capabilities: Shields that don't even cover a larger character's whole body? Get out of here with that.
 

Javier

Member
700? Ha! You're thinking too small. They need one for every location, character, item, system, staff member, favourite dishes of those staff members, their parents, their hometowns, countries of the world, planets, religious icons. The works.

And a kitchen sink.
There needs to be a Smash Bros. Trophy Gallery released as its own app on the 3DS. Could work like the 3D Pokedex. Man, it would be amazing.
 
Actually, yeah, seeing the trophies in 3D will be quite excellent. One of the niftier features of the built-in 3DS apps was the full panels from Panel Swap. (Haven't finished any of the new ones, though, thanks to those damn pink ones I can only get once in a blue moon.)
 

Dr.Hadji

Member
Smash 64 had no air defense. Melee had the one-time use air dodge that put you into a fall state. Brawl's air dodge was better, but you still have clearly inferior defensive options in air than on ground.

What would be wrong with air shielding?


Also on the subject of defensive capabilities: Shields that don't even cover a larger character's whole body? Get out of here with that.

That is a good thing. Seeing as the game is a take on a Sumo's ring outs I think its good that a player loses some level of control with they go to the air. You want all those defensive options, stay on the ground.
 

KevinCow

Banned
I don't agree at all. The games have had progressively more and more focus on aerial combat, giving you more options and more freedom, to the point where a match in Brawl probably spends more time in the air than on the ground. Giving players more options to approach, defend, and counter each other in the air would only be a good thing.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Sadly, Samus's peak was in N64.

Melee Samus is about 100000x better. Samus is probably the worst character in N64, just... so bad.

I don't agree at all. The games have had progressively more and more focus on aerial combat, giving you more options and more freedom, to the point where a match in Brawl probably spends more time in the air than on the ground. Giving players more options to approach, defend, and counter each other in the air would only be a good thing.

I'm not sure what your definition of aerial combat is, but with Brawl's infinite use, no fall-state air dodge, it became increasingly easier to reach the ground from the air. Not to mention combos don't really exist in Brawl... so it's mostly just pokes until percents are high enough to get the kill. There is far more time spent on the ground in a Brawl match, unless you're air camping as Meta Knight.

In Melee and 64, thanks to combos, a ton of time is spent in the air. In 64, it's thanks to the SUPER high hitstun (see: basic Falcon combos). In Melee, there are a solid amount of chain grabs from up throws, which leads to aerial combat at higher percentages. In Brawl, you just DI away from your opponent and air dodge as necessary until you're safe on the ground.
 

Hero

Member
I'm okay with it being easier to reach the ground from the air ala Brawl's unlimited, no-directional air dodge. The hit stun definitely needs to be a little bit longer to allow for combos though. I forget, for Melee were all normal attacks equal in their stun? Maybe with Sakurai letting the whole team balance SSB4 we could have different attacks causing varying amounts of hit stun so some moves are better to initiate and setup combos than others. Chain grabs need to go though.

I really wish Samus and Link were better. Considering they're probably the toughest characters in terms of what they get done in their own respective games they really get shit on in Smash Bros. For Samus I really think her basic B attack needs to be redone, it's absolutely pathetic in terms of speed and damage when it's not charged and even when it is charged it no longer has the same KO potential as before. I'd like to see it reflect how it is in the actual Metroid games with the different beams she has. The ability to change into Zero Suit Samus at will ala Zelda/Sheik would help tremendously too, I think. I would've liked ZSS a lot more if her Smash attacks were actually decent.
 

Dr.Hadji

Member
Melee Samus is about 100000x better. Samus is probably the worst character in N64, just... so bad.



I'm not sure what your definition of aerial combat is, but with Brawl's infinite use, no fall-state air dodge, it became increasingly easier to reach the ground from the air. Not to mention combos don't really exist in Brawl... so it's mostly just pokes until percents are high enough to get the kill. There is far more time spent on the ground in a Brawl match, unless you're air camping as Meta Knight.

Eh. Wouldn't say this is true. Remember, Brawl doesn't have L-canceling so optimal timing for the various characters various air moves are on average higher up over the ground than the most common air setup in Melee (the Short Hop). Not to mention that, as you said, you can just air dodge to get back to the ground so its not as risky to be high up in the air. A lot of good baits from from simply being at an optimal position in the air and air dodging to an advantage.
 
I feel like characters should only get one air dodge. Giving characters more defensive options generally means slower characters get the shaft, since they rely on mindgames and baiting more than the fast characters who can just correct all their mistakes.
 
Guess what time it is? Hypothetical character time!

Agent J

788744-fff_large.jpg


Very fast and nimble at the expense of less power. Dodges are very quick and stylish.

B: Elite Beat (Shoots out a fast-moving music note that does damage and stuns upon hitting)

Side B: Bust-a-move (Chargeable. Dances forwards striking enemies in his path)

Up B: Grapple Mic (swings his microphone upwards, hitting enemies. Can grab ledges)

Down B: Discord (Blasts opponents in a wide radius back with a bad note)

Final Smash: Music Lives! (Fires a large blue blast forwards using the power of music)
 
One of the most fundamental aspects of Melee is its use of position to dictate a match. Being above someone is consistently a bad situation (in..most matchups), just as getting edgeguarded is. Smash's horizontal and vertical space is larger than most fighting games, so being at the edge of either (near the blast zones) is made disadvantageous; players cannot create strategies around the extremities. The end result is that players get forced to the center, and stage control becomes a vital part of the gameplay; if you are above someone you want to get down, and if you are cornered, you want the center. This is not something you want to remove; rewarding players for taking a hard to win spot on the stage (the center) forces conflict...shooter fans can relate this to why capture the flag modes can often be the most hectic. Placing positional value to easy to attain spots like the edge or the air (all you have to do is run backwards and grab the edge, or jump in the air) ruins the flow of offense/defense and minimizes conflict. Brawl's airdodge, floaty gameplay, and new ledge mechanics conduce this sort of gameplay already, and I don't think shielding in the air would do anything to help move away from that. I can already think of a thousands things that players could do to abuse that mechanic, and none would be good (notably top platform camping, multiple jump stalling, etc..).
 
I felt like just posting some stage ideas for the next two SSB's.

Mario series:

Starship Mario- Basically you fight on the giant Mario head spaceship in Galaxy 2 as you travel through the galaxy.

NEW! Mushroom Kingdom- Similar ideas as Mushroom Kingdom 1 and 2 from Melee(not like Mushroomy Kingdom) but with the NSMB aesthetic.

Rainbow Road- Mario Kart stage based off of rainbow road.

Zelda Series:

Sealed Grounds- The center of the stage is the lowest point with gradual elevation rises on each side like how it is in SS. Occasionally bursts of air may shoot of the ground launching a player up in the air.

Spirit Train- Fight on top of a train that travels the new Hyrule from Spirit Tracks making occasional stops.

Metroid Series:
Phaaze- I feel that the Prime series has been poorly represented and this would be a unique and important place for the Metroid series.

DK Series:
Tidal Terror- It's a flat beach level with a few palm trees and rock structures. Occasionally giant waves will come so players must seek refuge behind rocks similar to how the actual level works in DKCR.

Pokemon series:
Castelia City- Fight on buildings, pokemarts, etc with 5th gen pokemon cameos. I chose this city because it was major focal point for the B/W games and was shown heavily to advertise B/W.

Burned Tower- To represent 2nd Gen and the remakes you have Burned Tower to fight at with occasional cameos by Ho-oh and the legendary trio.

Kirby Series:
King Dedede's Castle- Fight in the interior of Dedede's castle

Fountain Gardens- Doesn't have to be this specific stage but a nice stage based on Kirby's Epic Yarn and shows off the yarn art style. Perhaps with a few stage gimmicks based on that.

Pikmin Series:
Wistful Wild- I never really liked Brawl's stage. This is set to a similar theme as Wistful Wild in Pikmin 2. It's a flat stage with higher ledges on the outer edges of the stage you can jump onto if you want and a plant in the middle you can climb. The stage has day/night cycle that lasts about 2 minutes. It's peaceful in the day time but when night comes Bulborbs and other creatures appear on the stage so players need to seek refuge in higher elevations or try taking out the enemies.

Kid Icarus series:
Underworld- It's really hard to come up with just one location to choose due to Uprising's nature. However, I figured since there was a Skyworld. It would be appropriate to do an Underworld location. Much like Corneria in Melee, there needs to be a special trigger to activate some dialogue between Pit and the other characters.

Pilotwing series:
Wuhu Tour- Fight on top of a plane as it takes a tour of Wuhu Island. Randomnly decided what time of day you fight at similar to how it works in WSR.

Punchout series:
Arena- Simple standard flat stage that resembles a boxing ring. You can use the rubber boundary to your advantage. if an opponent is hit into it, no matter how hard, they will not go off-stage(die) instead they will be bounced back.

Other:
Wuhu Island- Stage based on Wuhu Island seen in WSR and PR.
 

McNum

Member
Zelda Series:
Spirit Train- Fight on top of a train that travels the new Hyrule from Spirit Tracks making occasional stops.

Pilotwing series:
Wuhu Tour- Fight on top of a plane as it takes a tour of Wuhu Island. Randomnly decided what time of day you fight at similar to how it works in WSR.
These two need to happen, fighting on top of moving vehicles is always awesome looking. And it'd be a great way to get Wuhu Island into the game. Plus, if there's a Mii character, it'd be a nice home stage for it, rather than the somewhat predictable Mii Plaza.

There are so many ideas for stages from Kid Icarus Uprising, though. All of which would be spoilers to name, but honestly, put me on
the Lighting Chariot
and just tour the entire game. I'd say that you could also do
The Great Sacred Treasure
as a stage, but really, Pit wants that for his Final Smash.
 
These two need to happen, fighting on top of moving vehicles is always awesome looking. And it'd be a great way to get Wuhu Island into the game. Plus, if there's a Mii character, it'd be a nice home stage for it, rather than the somewhat predictable Mii Plaza.

There are so many ideas for stages from Kid Icarus Uprising, though. All of which would be spoilers to name, but honestly, put me on
the Lighting Chariot
and just tour the entire game. I'd say that you could also do
The Great Sacred Treasure
as a stage, but really, Pit wants that for his Final Smash.

Yeah
the lightning chariot
occured to me too. Granted I think a stage based on the underworld could be pretty amazing too if it was similar to how it was in the later KI chapters.
 

McNum

Member
Yeah
the lightning chariot
occured to me too. Granted I think a stage based on the underworld could be pretty amazing too if it was similar to how it was in the later KI chapters.
The problem with the Underworld, mroe or less, is that it's kind of... samey. Unless you take that part with the
torrent of souls where you go to revive Pit
into account, it'd just be darkness and red sky. It could, of course, have
Hades in the background, commenting on the fighting
, which would validate the existence of the stage completely.

I just want to see
the Aurum hive, the Galactic Sea, the moon, and of course, the chaos realm, or what it was called
.
 

KevinCow

Banned
One of the most fundamental aspects of Melee is its use of position to dictate a match. Being above someone is consistently a bad situation (in..most matchups), just as getting edgeguarded is. Smash's horizontal and vertical space is larger than most fighting games, so being at the edge of either (near the blast zones) is made disadvantageous; players cannot create strategies around the extremities. The end result is that players get forced to the center, and stage control becomes a vital part of the gameplay; if you are above someone you want to get down, and if you are cornered, you want the center. This is not something you want to remove; rewarding players for taking a hard to win spot on the stage (the center) forces conflict...shooter fans can relate this to why capture the flag modes can often be the most hectic. Placing positional value to easy to attain spots like the edge or the air (all you have to do is run backwards and grab the edge, or jump in the air) ruins the flow of offense/defense and minimizes conflict. Brawl's airdodge, floaty gameplay, and new ledge mechanics conduce this sort of gameplay already, and I don't think shielding in the air would do anything to help move away from that. I can already think of a thousands things that players could do to abuse that mechanic, and none would be good (notably top platform camping, multiple jump stalling, etc..).

Literally the only thing this post says to me is, "Anything that changes the dynamic to be different from Melee is inherently bad."
 

Jintor

Member
Predicting a Rhythm Heaven wario-ware esque stage, perhaps combined with an EBA/Ouendan stage (or a separate one entirely!)

I kind of think Wuhu Island is a shoe-in...
 
Literally the only thing this post says to me is, "Anything that changes the dynamic to be different from Melee is inherently bad."

As a rule, this tends to be true. Melee is a very, very good game.

This is a silly hypothetical so I won't pursue it further, but I really hope somebody got more out of my post than you did :/
 

Fidelis Hodie

Infidelis Cras
Guess what time it is? Hypothetical character time!

Agent J

788744-fff_large.jpg


Very fast and nimble at the expense of less power. Dodges are very quick and stylish.

B: Elite Beat (Shoots out a fast-moving music note that does damage and stuns upon hitting)

Side B: Bust-a-move (Chargeable. Dances forwards striking enemies in his path)

Up B: Grapple Mic (swings his microphone upwards, hitting enemies. Can grab ledges)

Down B: Discord (Blasts opponents in a wide radius back with a bad note)

Final Smash: Music Lives! (Fires a large blue blast forwards using the power of music)

Oh god, yes. Would be awesome!
 

Boney

Banned
Predicting a Rhythm Heaven wario-ware esque stage, perhaps combined with an EBA/Ouendan stage (or a separate one entirely!)

I kind of think Wuhu Island is a shoe-in...

RH stage is pretty much guaranteed. Ouendan/EBA? Good luck with getting sticker there.
 
You can't just have one Agent, they come in threes! Unless it's Khan.

I only remember this strip because it has Wolf in it (the only strip in the site with Wolf)

I think Wolf might be starting to join the elite club of Nintendo characters better known for their Smash Bros appearances than their actual games. This club includes:

-Marth
-Ness
-Mr Game and Watch
-Meta Knight
-and Club President Captain Falcon
 

KevinCow

Banned
As a rule, this tends to be true. Melee is a very, very good game.

This is a silly hypothetical so I won't pursue it further, but I really hope somebody got more out of my post than you did :/

Melee is a great game. It's been pretty much ruined for me by its frothing, fanatical purists, but it is a great game.

That doesn't mean another Smash game can't present the formula differently and be just as great.


In Street Fighter, you cannot block in the air. This makes jumping mean certain things. You can cover ground much faster by jumping, but it's very risky because it leaves you open. This is fine. Street Fighter is a great game. (Well, its sequels are anyway.)

In Marvel vs. Capcom, they let you block in the air. This completely changes what jumping means. It's no longer the huge risk that it is in Street Fighter. And yet, Marvel vs. Capcom is still a great series.
 
Melee is a great game. It's been pretty much ruined for me by its frothing, fanatical purists

Thats a shame.

That doesn't mean another Smash game can't present the formula differently and be just as great.

I disagree on this point. I think Melee's mechanics are the logical conclusion to correct game design decisions for the series and for any other smash game to be "just as great" it would have to be derivative of that. Straying from core ideologies that are clearly correct (emphasis on positional play, a dynamic combo system, etc) would not give you different flavors of the same fruit, but just rotten gameplay and undesirable results. In Street Fighter, we'd never consider devaluing the positional weakness of the corner, or removing bread-and-butter combos, as a fun, but alternative take on the series. We'd just think it bad, because thats what it would be.

In Street Fighter, you cannot block in the air. This makes jumping mean certain things. You can cover ground much faster by jumping, but it's very risky because it leaves you open. This is fine. Street Fighter is a great game. (Well, its sequels are anyway.)

In Marvel vs. Capcom, they let you block in the air. This completely changes what jumping means. It's no longer the huge risk that it is in Street Fighter. And yet, Marvel vs. Capcom is still a great series.

Neither of these examples make sense because neither series has the movement mechanics that Smash has. You cannot air or platform camp in either series (well you actually can in MvC but thats beyond the point). Hell, they don't even have platforms to begin with.

The point is that having a shield in the air moves more power to the player who ought to be in a disadvantageous position. This allows for tactics centered on the extremities, something that we clearly want to avoid.
 

ffdgh

Member
Heck no to those two. Brawl's air dodge system accomplishes better air defense part. Besides landing and some very specific situations direction air dodging isn't missed.

a tad late but the problem with brawl's air dodge mechanic is that every character had a different number of invincibly frames and lag afterwards....and metaknight's non shockingly is the best lol
 

KevinCow

Banned
I think Melee's mechanics are the logical conclusion to correct game design decisions for the series and for any other smash game to be "just as great" it would have to be derivative of that.

I am very happy that there are people in the game industry who don't think like you, because a world where everyone thinks that anything good has already reached its final, logical conclusions and cannot be pushed any further would be astoundingly stale.

Can you imagine if nobody tried to build on or add to Doom, or Super Mario Bros., or Street Fighter II? Because, I mean, those games worked perfectly well. Clearly any changes or additions would completely break the perfectly fine-tuned balance of these games.

Would the industry even still be alive today? Probably not, honestly.
 
I don't want air blocking because I think it offers players too many defensive options. Smash is a good mix of offense and evasion- limiting your defensive options to a weak shield forces players to rely on movement to avoid getting, well, smashed. Adding an air block would also slow down damage accrual- ideally, a Smash match has a steady pace of knockouts and such, and given that a good amount of damage is probably doled out to airborne players, I think adding an air block would slow down that damage accrual and therefore the pace.

tl;dr, air blocking would probably make for more boring play. The air dodge as it stands is fine.
 
And now, because I'm bored out of my skull, the most unlikely Smash character ever!

Karate Joe

tumblr_m0yhkmHxer1qeie3m_1331865170_cover.jpg


Very basic, ro-sham-bo style character with different attacks for different situations.

B: Karate Punch (A quick jab with crazy knockback but very little damage. Can be used 3 times in succession with a brief cooldown time.)

Side B: Pot Toss (Throws a ceramic planter at the opponent; trajectory can be controlled by the Control Stick.)

Up B: Karate Upper (Leaps upwards, delivering a heavy blow to the foe's jaw. Does lots of damage to airborne opponents, but very little to grounded ones.)

Down B: Karate Kick (A roundhouse with a charge-up time that does devestating damage.)

Final Smash: Karate Combo (Delivers a quick 6-hit combo that sends the opponent hurtling through the air)
 
I am very happy that there are people in the game industry who don't think like you, because a world where everyone thinks that anything good has already reached its final, logical conclusions and cannot be pushed any further would be astoundingly stale.

Can you imagine if nobody tried to build on or add to Doom, or Super Mario Bros., or Street Fighter II? Because, I mean, those games worked perfectly well. Clearly any changes or additions would completely break the perfectly fine-tuned balance of these games.

Would the industry even still be alive today? Probably not, honestly.

The things you are proposing aren't additions. You aren't "building" upon the core formula by adding air blocking. You are actually moving away from it. Simply put, any smash game which removes positional play from the metagame by buffing weak positions and nerfing strong ones so that their overall value is comparable would make for an overall bad game. This moves away from the core formulas and creates a new formula altogether, and I don't think the new formula could ever work in making a fun, interesting game. Its one thing to add walljumping or triple jumps to a mario game, its another entirely to allow you to float infinitely above all hazards without consequence. The former things are additions that add depth to gameplay and extend upon existing formula, the latter removes all challenge and destroys everything that makes mario interesting.

I am not saying additions cannot be made, but that they should be made with the core essence of smash in tact. And since Melee (even more than 64) is the seminal work in the series, I'd say it encapsulates that essence perfectly and all good games in the series would have to base much of their gameplay around the core mechanics it established.

I have given you multiple reasons why I think air blocking would lead to bad gameplay. Care to give me reasons why it would not?
 

GamerSoul

Member
What it you hypothetically air blocked Ike's forward Smash? Would Ike be at a disadvantage because of the moves recovery time? Or will the blocker go flying off in a direction without taking any damage?
 

KevinCow

Banned
Its one thing to add walljumping or triple jumps to a mario game, its another entirely to allow you to float infinitely above all hazards without consequence.

Because that's a remotely reasonable comparison and not an insane leap in logic at all.

A better comparison is that they add wall jumps and triple jumps to a Mario game, and you complain that these things would trivialize certain boss fights and levels in the previous game, so are therefore terrible additions that completely ruin the game. But you're not considering that while, yeah, you can't just slap these things on the old game and expect it to work, but if you design the new game with these mechanics in mind, they will probably work just fine.

I have given you multiple reasons why I think air blocking would lead to bad gameplay. Care to give me reasons why it would not?

Yeah. It would encourage aerial play. That was the point of every change I suggested in that post.

When you knock an opponent off the stage and he's trying to get back, and you hop out there to try to finish him off, you both have more options, both offensively and defensively. The player closer to the stage still has the advantage because he is closer to safety and likely hasn't used up his second jump, but the player further away has actual defensive options outside of killing himself with an air dodge.

The point is that on the ground, when someone comes at you, you have a lot of options: block, dodge, roll, jump, counter-attack, grab. But when someone comes at you in the air in Brawl, you really only have two options: dodge or counter-attack. And in Melee, dodge is a pretty terrible option since it puts you into a fall state. And if you're playing as a character who has a slow and shitty aerial in the direction your opponent's coming from? Welp.

I just find the current lack of aerial options pretty boring, both to play and watch.


How about this: When you shield in the air, it depletes twice as fast. This would make shield shattering far more likely, and considering the helpless state that leaves you in, it would basically be death if there's no safe ground below. It would be a defensive option that you could use, but one that you wouldn't want to abuse.


Oh, and by the way, on this?

Neither of these examples make sense because neither series has the movement mechanics that Smash has. You cannot air or platform camp in either series (well you actually can in MvC but thats beyond the point). Hell, they don't even have platforms to begin with.

I wasn't specifically pointing out that air blocking works in MvC, therefore it should work in Smash. I was pointing out a situation where a relatively minor game mechanic was changed that drastically altered the dynamic between the two players and what was considered a weak position and a strong position, and - shockingly - didn't completely ruin the competitive aspect of the game.

Just as jumping in MvC doesn't put the player at a huge disadvantage yet didn't break the game, air shielding would give the player on the ground less of an advantage, but this wouldn't break the game. It would simply present a different dynamic between the two players.
 
I'm fine with any change in mechanics as long as the characters are balanced. Brawl is a great game. Its physics and air combat make it a different great game than Melee, but it's still fun. Where Brawl suffers is that Metaknight is invincible.

Oh, and remove tripping. I get that some randomness makes up some of the game, and I enjoy playing with items. But I just don't know who tripping is supposed to be fun for. At least with Mario Kart (a more extreme example than I would like Smash to go in), I understand who benefits enjoyably while tearing through the course with a star.
 
I'm fine with any change in mechanics as long as the characters are balanced. Brawl is a great game. It's physics and air combat make it a different great game than Melee, but it's still fun. Where Brawl suffers is that Metaknight is invincible.

Oh, and remove tripping. I get that some randomness makes up some of the game, and I enjoy playing with items. But I just don't know who tripping is supposed to be fun for. At least with Mario Kart (a more extreme example than I would like Smash to go in), I understand who benefits enjoyably while tearing through the course with a star.
Mario Kart is a bad direction for Smash to go in. A game should never punish excellence.
 
A better comparison is that they add wall jumps and triple jumps to a Mario game, and you complain that these things would trivialize certain boss fights and levels in the previous game, so are therefore terrible additions that completely ruin the game. But you're not considering that while, yeah, you can't just slap these things on the old game and expect it to work, but if you design the new game with these mechanics in mind, they will probably work just fine.

This paragraph is incredibly vague and doesn't really say much at all :/

When you knock an opponent off the stage and he's trying to get back, and you hop out there to try to finish him off, you both have more options, both offensively and defensively. The player closer to the stage still has the advantage because he is closer to safety and likely hasn't used up his second jump, but the player further away has actual defensive options outside of killing himself with an air dodge.

Are you implying that with the current system (in Melee) the player getting edgeguarded doesn't have a variety of options that the edgeguarder has to account for? Because that is not true in the slightest.

And no. All that would happen is that edgeguarding would no longer be viable. The person getting edgeguarded would shield whatever attack you try to make. Even if they miss the sweetspot they could shield as they float to the edge to prevent a punish because of no fall state. Hell, they could even put a hitbox out after the up B (say, a Marth fair after a high upB); making edgeguarding near impossible. Go out there to edgeguard and your attack gets shielded and they double jump out-of-shield punish and kill you, stay on stage and they get back guaranteed.

The point is that on the ground, when someone comes at you, you have a lot of options: block, dodge, roll, jump, counter-attack, grab. But when someone comes at you in the air in Brawl, you really only have two options: dodge or counter-attack. And in Melee, dodge is a pretty terrible option since it puts you into a fall state. And if you're playing as a character who has a slow and shitty aerial in the direction your opponent's coming from? Welp.

Do you understand this is desirable? Beyond the fact that you are oversimplifying options, and controlling someone above you is actually very difficult and takes a ton of precision and skill, I don't see why you want a game where controlling center stage doesn't get you positional rewards, often resulting in follow up hits.

How about this: When you shield in the air, it depletes twice as fast. This would make shield shattering far more likely, and considering the helpless state that leaves you in, it would basically be death if there's no safe ground below. It would be a defensive option that you could use, but one that you wouldn't want to abuse.

This wouldn't solve much. It is very easy to camp until your shield regains HP. Shield angling and lightshielding would further invalidate this change.
 
Mario Kart is a bad direction for Smash to go in. A game should never punish excellence.

I did say that I didn't want Smash to go in that direction. I'm using it as an example of something that I at least understand who gets enjoyment from the other player's handicap. With Smash and tripping, I don't even think it's fun for the other player. It's just dumb. Who actually feels good about winning a close match because your opponent tripped into your smash attack?
 

Anth0ny

Member
I did say that I didn't want Smash to go in that direction. I'm using it as an example of something that I at least understand who gets enjoyment from the other player's handicap. With Smash and tripping, I don't even think it's fun for the other player. It's just dumb. Who actually feels good about winning a close match because your opponent tripped into your smash attack?

The Mario Kart equivalent would be your car randomly spinning out in the middle of a race. I'm baffled that tripping made it into the game, and would have loved to see Sakurai try to sell us on it with a Dojo entry.
 
I did say that I didn't want Smash to go in that direction. I'm using it as an example of something that I at least understand who gets enjoyment from the other player's handicap. With Smash and tripping, I don't even think it's fun for the other player. It's just dumb. Who actually feels good about winning a close match because your opponent tripped into your smash attack?
You're right, I misread you as saying otherwise.

Tripping is dumb. Casual players don't even like it. Items are one thing, because people usually have to fight over them. In fact, it would be neat if there were a way for items to not be grabbed for the first 3 seconds they're on a stage so people can battle over them. I'd like for them to tone items down more, though.
 

KevinCow

Banned
This paragraph is incredibly vague and doesn't really say much at all :/

I think it pretty explicitly sums up this entire conversation.

I think they could introduce these new mechanics in the next game, and then design the game around them so that they make sense.

You look at these mechanics I'm suggesting and say, "BUT THEY WOULDN'T WORK IN MELEE, THEREFORE THEY ARE TERRIBLE AND BORKEN!!!!"

Case in point:

This wouldn't solve much. It is very easy to camp until your shield regains HP. Shield angling and lightshielding would further invalidate this change.

You are clearly unable to comprehend the idea that, should such a system be put into play, they would design the game's shielding system with it in mind. Maybe the shield wouldn't regenerate at the same speed. Maybe it doesn't regenerate at all until you touch the ground, meaning that you have a limited amount of shield that you have to choose to use wisely. Maybe your shielding tricks that further invalidate this change won't work identically to what you're used to in Melee.

Oh wait, but I guess that wouldn't work, because that's more things that are different from Melee, and therefore terrible.


See, I like change. I like new ideas. I'm not saying air shielding would absolutely, positively make a better game, but I think it's an interesting idea that would change up the dynamic of the game, and I want to change up the dynamic of the game. If I were making the game and I tried to implement it, and it turned out to not work very well on the first iteration, you know what I'd do? I wouldn't shout, "NO, FUCK IT, DOESN'T WORK, GO BACK TO THE WAY MELEE DID THINGS," like you have before even trying something different. I'd go back to the drawing board, examine where and why it fell flat, and consider ways that I could make it work.

I think it's fucking ridiculous that after literally only THREE competent games of this style, you think they already achieved absolute, undeniable perfection with the second iteration.

Serious question: Is there a single change that they could make to Melee's formula that you wouldn't immediately deride as broken and game-ruining?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom