I'm torn both ways. Final smashes were never really fair. New players didn't know what they were whenever I played, so they would always end up going to the more experienced players. On the other hand, once everyone is knowledgeable about the game, it can cause a lot of chaos. If they did adopt a fairer system of building up final smashes, like a time-based or damage-based one, I don't know if a three-tiered system would be any good. It would be be a step right back into making it unfair for newer players because of the large amount of very important moves to memorize.
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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
- Thread starter Snakeyes
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I'm torn both ways. Final smashes were never really fair. New players didn't know what they were whenever I played, so they would always end up going to the more experienced players. On the other hand, once everyone is knowledgeable about the game, it can cause a lot of chaos. If they did adopt a fairer system of building up final smashes, like a time-based or damage-based one, I don't know if a three-tiered system would be any good. It would be be a step right back into making it unfair for newer players because of the large amount of very important moves to memorize.
RealDeadOne
Member
So why don't we talk possible Assist Trophies? I really hope we have an absolute ton of Assist Trophies this time, because they're a way to get boatloads of characters in without having to worry too much about balance. Some can even have reused functionality.
Mario
-Fawful
-Cackletta
-Bowser Jr.
-Chain-chomp (could be it's own item)
-Mallow
-Paper Mario partners
Wario
-Ashley
-Jimmy T.
-Mike
-Dr. Cryorg
-WALUIGI
Yoshi
-Kamek
-Raphael Raven
-Pak E. Derm
-Baby Mario/Luigi/Peach/Wario/DK/Bowser
-Boshi
DK
-Rambi, Expresso,Enguarde
-Kremlins or K. Rool if he's not playable
-Tiki things from DKCR
-Other Kongs (Lanky, Cranky, Wrinkly, Chunky, Kiddie, Funky, Swanky, etc.)
-That scary ass spider thing from DKC2
Zelda
-Groose
-Linebeck
-Loftwings
-Helmaroc/Helmasaur King
-Skull Kid
Metroid
-Dark Samus/Ridley (whoever isn't playable)
-Kraid, Phantoon, Dagon
-Etecoons and Dachoras
-Adam and Anthony
-Other Hunters
-Torizos, Spore Spawn and other mini-bosses. Also more stuff from Prime games.
Kid Icarus
-Some of the side characters that aren't playable.
-Enemies? I haven't played Uprising yet so I dunno
-Eggplant Wizard
Ice Climbers
-Enemies, vulture thing characters could grab onto and move across the stage
Kirby
-Dyna Blade
-The dark Meta Knight guy
-Dark Matter
-Kracko
-Minibosses like Bonkers, the beetle guy, the giant bomb clown thing
Pikmin
-fucking Snagret
-Bulborbs
-various other enemies, maybe Louie, the Boss or Pikmin 3 characters
Star Fox
-Star Wolf (Pigman, Leon, Oikonny and Panther do bombing runs and stuff)
-Tricky/dinosaurs
-Cornerian fleet
-N64 Andross
F-Zero
-tons and tons and tons and TONS of racers to choose from. You could make a fighting game just out of F-Zero characters, damn
Pokemon
-There could be a couple of non-Pokeball things here I guess, like other trainers that call out a bunch of unique Pokemon at once, or something that drops a whole bunch of Pokeballs with higher chances of getting legendaries.
Fire Emblem
-See F-Zero. there's basically no end to the amount of characters and enemy units you could use.
Mother
-Ultimate freaking Chimera
-Porky statue
-Duster, Flint and Boney or Kumatora
-Fassad or Salsa
-Paula or Poo
-Starmen
-Giygas or Gieuge (Giygas would be freaking awesome)
other
-Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land
-More obscure GBA characters please
-ELITE BEAT AGENTS
-Chibi Robo, more Stafy, more Custom Robo, Cubivore, something from Geist.
-Just too many to list. Ideally within a few more games there'd be at least one rep from every franchise ever published by Nintendo.
More suggestions?
Mario
-Fawful
-Cackletta
-Bowser Jr.
-Chain-chomp (could be it's own item)
-Mallow
-Paper Mario partners
Wario
-Ashley
-Jimmy T.
-Mike
-Dr. Cryorg
-WALUIGI
Yoshi
-Kamek
-Raphael Raven
-Pak E. Derm
-Baby Mario/Luigi/Peach/Wario/DK/Bowser
-Boshi
DK
-Rambi, Expresso,Enguarde
-Kremlins or K. Rool if he's not playable
-Tiki things from DKCR
-Other Kongs (Lanky, Cranky, Wrinkly, Chunky, Kiddie, Funky, Swanky, etc.)
-That scary ass spider thing from DKC2
Zelda
-Groose
-Linebeck
-Loftwings
-Helmaroc/Helmasaur King
-Skull Kid
Metroid
-Dark Samus/Ridley (whoever isn't playable)
-Kraid, Phantoon, Dagon
-Etecoons and Dachoras
-Adam and Anthony
-Other Hunters
-Torizos, Spore Spawn and other mini-bosses. Also more stuff from Prime games.
Kid Icarus
-Some of the side characters that aren't playable.
-Enemies? I haven't played Uprising yet so I dunno
-Eggplant Wizard
Ice Climbers
-Enemies, vulture thing characters could grab onto and move across the stage
Kirby
-Dyna Blade
-The dark Meta Knight guy
-Dark Matter
-Kracko
-Minibosses like Bonkers, the beetle guy, the giant bomb clown thing
Pikmin
-fucking Snagret
-Bulborbs
-various other enemies, maybe Louie, the Boss or Pikmin 3 characters
Star Fox
-Star Wolf (Pigman, Leon, Oikonny and Panther do bombing runs and stuff)
-Tricky/dinosaurs
-Cornerian fleet
-N64 Andross
F-Zero
-tons and tons and tons and TONS of racers to choose from. You could make a fighting game just out of F-Zero characters, damn
Pokemon
-There could be a couple of non-Pokeball things here I guess, like other trainers that call out a bunch of unique Pokemon at once, or something that drops a whole bunch of Pokeballs with higher chances of getting legendaries.
Fire Emblem
-See F-Zero. there's basically no end to the amount of characters and enemy units you could use.
Mother
-Ultimate freaking Chimera
-Porky statue
-Duster, Flint and Boney or Kumatora
-Fassad or Salsa
-Paula or Poo
-Starmen
-Giygas or Gieuge (Giygas would be freaking awesome)
other
-Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land
-More obscure GBA characters please
-ELITE BEAT AGENTS
-Chibi Robo, more Stafy, more Custom Robo, Cubivore, something from Geist.
-Just too many to list. Ideally within a few more games there'd be at least one rep from every franchise ever published by Nintendo.
More suggestions?
NeonZ
Member
I hope the Smash Ball stays. Its use dramatically affects how the game is played, and if you don't want it, it can be just turned off. Now, I'd like to see some kind of meter based attack in addition to it, not replacing that mechanic.
Make all Smash Ball attacks into game breakers that can knock out every enemy player at least once and then use the meter to create new powered up flashier smash attacks, which would have a shorter range, more adequate to hitting a single opponent, unless many are gathered in single point of the stage. Basically a flashier and stronger version of a standard Smash attack.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Who wants N to be playable?
Also yes, instead of controlling Pokemons, you control N, and his attack involve calling Pokemon. Like his forward smash would be letting a Herdier bite your face.
Also yes, instead of controlling Pokemons, you control N, and his attack involve calling Pokemon. Like his forward smash would be letting a Herdier bite your face.
Next year's E3 =/
Oh god, it's going to be a long wait. It's the damn Skyward Sword concept art wait again but even worse since this game was already announced at last years E3.
Why do Nintendo hide so many games until a few months from release but then pull a shit move like this for Smash Bros? Smash Bros is already one of the harder game to wait for without them pulling the announcement before any development crap.
Green Mamba
Member
The one assist that just needs (needs) to happen is Eggplant Wizard.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
I'm still holding out on either Karate Joe or the Wrestler being a playable character. One is a series mainstay; the other's an extremely popular and memetic character.
If they choose a new trainer I would fully support N or Cynthia being playable.
Professor Beef
Banned
Because the concept sketches probably weren't even dry by the time E3 rolled around.
His attack better be to drop the moon on the stage, or I'm gonna choke a bitch.
He could basically be Snorlax.
Nocturnowl
Member
Lets do this, i'll do one for each series that is currently in the SSB series with playable reps (plus AC just because), odds are guys from your extensive list will pop up here but i'll detail what they could do.
Mario series: Bowser Jr
He turns up and uses the Paintbrush from sunshine to spread goop across an area of the stage, tripping increases to high levels on the goop itself (like the Tingle assist with the bananas in Brawl) and causes slow poison like damage. When I say tripping don't see this as me saying that "oh boy lets have tripping in SSB4 as well!" the random stuff would be removed, low attacks, banana peels and maybe Ice should still cause the effect itself.
DK Series: Cranky Kong
Slowly staggers around mumbling to himself for a period of time, will strike you with his cane if you get close enough, the trick is that the cane will either do minor damage with minimal knockback or have the power of a homerun bat.
Zelda Series: Majora's Mask
Okay get ready for gimmickry, the mask itself pops up and positions itself centre stage and starts bringing down the moon which will instant kill everyone on the stage if it hits, players will have to stop fighting and temporarily join forces to punch the mask to pieces and save themselves from the calamity. Or you can be a dick and defend the mask because you like trolling your friends.
Metroid Series: Mother Brain
Sits in its jar/tube shooting eyeball projectiles, so far so basic, just don't think of knocking the jar over while its out there or else it will rise up in the dinosaur style form from Super Metroid and wreck up the place with overpowered beams. And no the person who gets MB can't break the jar themselves, that would be too easy.
Pokemon Series: Barry
Usually i'd skip pokemon since it has pokeballs but then the idea of Barry running around hyper actively bumping into people was too amusing to pass up, causes no actual damage but has a bumper like knockback when he runs into you, the kid needs to calm down once in a while.
Yoshi Series: Pak E Derm
Stolen from your list RealDeadOne but I loved the idea, an annoying assist trophy that blocks you from bypassing the immediate area around him unless you smash him onto his backside, projectiles can still pass through his invisible barrier space leading to craftiness from projectile users. Also the summoner has the ability to bypass Pak E Derm for greater annoyer potential.
Alternative series idea would involve Shyguys because they are awesome, possibly the limbo ones from Yoshi's Story that trip people with the moving limbo poles.
Wario Series: Captain Syrup
Think about how Munchlax likes to run over to items and eat them, well Syrup would run over to items to steal them, except she would have no hesitation to wallop anyone in the way of her "treasure" so to speak. Could have some light damage dealing black sugar gang spearmen trailing her because why the hell not.
Kirby Series: Scarfy
If you've played a Kirby game you no doubt know about Scarfy, it may look pleasant but go near it and it will chase you down suicidally with a bang, it would pretty much work like it does in the games.
Alternatively the Captain Syrup idea could work for Daroach freeing up a different Wario AT.
Kid Icarus: Pyrrhon
"Pyrrhon has a delivery and the return address is justice!" He flies around, blasts folks with fire while making quips and boasting, basic but gets the job done.
Mother/Earthbound: FrightBot
Joke AT of the game, The Fright Bot will tell you stories so terrifying you'll not be able to go the bathroom at night ever again and various other tales, basically it's a Resetti but you can halt it by destroying the box itself.
Admittedly I could do a lot better here but it's been too long since I last played Mother 3 and i've never played Earthbound so yeah.
Starfox: ROB64
Location confirmed: sending supplies, and the supplies are really good ones at that, like a smash ball or health recovery, or of course a smart bomb. Sent straight to the player who gets ROB64. ROB doesn't actually show up himself, he sticks to his textbox.
Pikmin: Swooping Snitchbug
Swoops in, picks up a player or two and either dumps them into the floor trapping them in a pitfall/DK headbutt state or just off the stage entirely like the bastard that he is.
Fire Emblem: Black Knight
Personal bias towards this guy compels me to have him as the AT, he walks in starts beating the hell out of everyone, final attack involves warp powder teleporting making it like Lyn's critical hit from Brawl.
F-Zero: Pico
He's an ex hitman if my F-Zero trivia is correct and one of the original characters to boot. He selects one target out of the players available and pursues them alone until he times out, is proficient with ranged and melee attacks.
Animal Crossing: BEES
Beehive drops down, you know the drill.
Sonic: Eggman
Why we didn't get him in Brawl I have no idea. Eggman shows up in his trademark pod thing, he'll then pull out one of his numerous boss battle tricks, say that there is 4 possible outcomes here, one would be the original wrecking ball for example, the other three options would have to be ones that involved his standard pod as opposed to his more elaborate machines. Also the music changes to his Sonic 2 or 3 boss theme while he's out just because.
Metal Gear Solid:
Errrr.....Psycho Mantis comes out, and basically does the Manaphy heart swap thing from Brawl but for every player temporarily while reading your save data, controller swapping cannot save you.
Leaving out Game and Watch because every possible idea is either in his moveset or the flat zone stages. And avoiding ROB because he has bugger all aside from like professor hector.
Delayed Snorlax. While the sky quickly goes through the day/night cycle with "Dawn of the X Day" appearing in big letters at the top of the screen. Then boom.
I think that's a life-size replica doll of Sakurai he uses to get out of publicity photoshoots
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
You mean Sakurai is just an AI?
what the fuck is an eggman
I personally think there should be a complete overhaul of how Assist Trophies work. The idea of representing more characters is cool, but there's really no gameplay difference between them and Pokemon, which is a bit of a shame. The Pokemon worked well for all 3 games, and can stick around, but some of the Assist characters should feel 'bigger' than just another Pokeball.
I think a cool possible solution would to be to have them as almost like a new special move - you pick your character, then, from a second menu, select an assist trophy to go with it, that could then be activated during battle when certain conditions are met (maybe there can be a super meter or something). Some could produce attacks, some could aid recovery, whatever. This would allow a character like Roy to come back, and be in a bigger role than he could possibly be in now, but without actually taking up a proper character slot.
This would also be an interesting way of implementing that customisation focus that Sakurai seemed to want - you could have four people playing as Mario, but they could all be different thanks to having different assists.
I think a cool possible solution would to be to have them as almost like a new special move - you pick your character, then, from a second menu, select an assist trophy to go with it, that could then be activated during battle when certain conditions are met (maybe there can be a super meter or something). Some could produce attacks, some could aid recovery, whatever. This would allow a character like Roy to come back, and be in a bigger role than he could possibly be in now, but without actually taking up a proper character slot.
This would also be an interesting way of implementing that customisation focus that Sakurai seemed to want - you could have four people playing as Mario, but they could all be different thanks to having different assists.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Well, you can hurl pokeballs at your enemies and they can be reflected. ATs require you to be on the floor to summon them but they cannot be "reflected" back to you.
I'd be all for that. Assist trophies, and final smashes too, were great ideas that should have been great additions to the game, but were executed poorly. The fact that they were both left as items, and that items were really annoying in Brawl, meant that two of the bigger additions to the game were hardly ever seen by a lot of players. And hell, even when you were playing with items on, you know you turned Assist Trophies off because of bullshit like Devil and Nintendog.
As much as people complain about the changes made from Melee to Brawl, my biggest complaint is about the changes that weren't made. While the physics and some relatively minor mechanics were fiddled with, it wasn't like the jump from 64 to Melee where they added a fourth special, chargeable smashes, air and spot dodging, and a number of other things. These were great additions to the core mechanics, and Brawl didn't really have anything comparable to that.
Incorporating assists and final smashes into the the core mechanics of the game, maybe having them both governed by the same meter, would be the kind of major addition I wish Brawl had. And it would be a great way to incorporate those characters who are cool and important, but not quite cool and important enough for their own character slot, in a way that's actually meaningful and interesting.
What if assists actually came with four different attacks? You get a new button dedicated to assists, and can choose which one you use based on the direction you hold, just like the other two attack buttons.
Nocturnowl
Member
Hey this is actually my main gripe as well, Brawl tried to add some gameplay variants but Gliding and crawling weren't exactly game changing.
Anyway these AT and Final smash ideas floating around are pretty solid but one benefit to keeping Final smashes as an item is that you can keep them off since some are brutally unbalanced by comparison to others.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Kyo-style flame choke needs to stay. :<
The best course of action would probably be to give those moves and physics to Black Shadow/Deathborn though
with a Ganondorf alt costume
Well, ideally they wouldn't just use the Brawl final smashes, but instead have new final smashes that are actually balanced this time around. In Brawl it seemed like they literally couldn't give less of a shit about balance in final smashes (or items in general) and just made them as wacky as possible. Like they just made them with the idea that people who didn't like all the wackiness would turn them off anyway.
If they were a key mechanic of the game instead of something that could just be turned off, they'd have to think a bit harder when designing them. And even if they were still pretty powerful, I'd be much more fine with a low percent kill if I knew the other guy had to work for it and sacrifice something else by not using his meter for other things like assists or EX moves or whatever. As long as it's not some bullshit transformation like a Landmaster or Super Sonic.
Also, even beyond being items instead of a core mechanic, the smash ball mechanic is awful in general. For one, it completely kills the flow of the fight, as everyone runs straight towards it when it appears. For another thing, it doesn't allow for any strategic use once you do get it. You just use it the instant you get it, or you get it knocked out of you.
It's such an awesome, climactic moment when a good super lands in other fighting games. I'd just love to see that happen in Smash.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Red Arremer
Member
I have come to the conclusion that seeing people's anger and tears over Honey Queen as a playable character would make me laugh very hard.
Make it happen, Nintendo.
Make it happen, Nintendo.
And then don't include Waluigi for extra tears.
Red Arremer
Member
Speaking of MK7, I hope they're gonna do it for other characters like they did for Wario in Brawl, and include Metal Mario, Shadow Mario and Dr. Mario as alt costumes for Mario this time around (although, granted, Metal and Shadow Mario would just be color schemes). Also, Daisy and Rosalina for Peach. Bowser should get Dry Bowser and an alt that makes him look like Giga Bowser. That would be swell. No idea what Luigi could have, though.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Well Peach already has Daisy color, and Daisy's clothing is somewhat same-y anyway.
But no I want Rosalina to be an actual character.
But no I want Rosalina to be an actual character.
Well those can easily be alt colours. Then again Bowser's blue colour is a reference to the original art for Super Mario Bros so it is unlikely to be replaced.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Nooo, not the community boards!
But hey that means this thread is neighbors with furrygaf.
I'd argue they'd require to add some stuff on to the character.
People tend to confuse alt costumes to "change the character completely" due to Capcom's bullshit.
But hey that means this thread is neighbors with furrygaf.
I'd argue they'd require to add some stuff on to the character.
People tend to confuse alt costumes to "change the character completely" due to Capcom's bullshit.
Red Arremer
Member
They have different hair and such. I would enjoy that to be expanded into an actual alt costume, maybe even with Daisy's voice instead of Peach's, and like, the heart things being visually changed into flowers and such. And if Rosalina's not a character, it'd be safe to assume that Peach at least would get her as an alt color/costume (and if it's a costume, again, voice change and hearts to starts would be preferable - maybe even have a little pet Luma hover around her).
Maybe it'll be gone? And why will it be confusing, are you not paying attention to what happens in the game at all? You'd have to be pretty blind to not see someone pick up that huge green box and it also has an audio cue...
Oh, right, I think I understand now.
Right, totally forgot about Mr. L. Since we're at Paper Mario versions, Shadow Queen Peach would be cool, I guess.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
See, if you're going to alt costume, it's just that, a changed costume. No need to change voice, more external changes, etc. Save that for an actual character.
Red Arremer
Member
I'd rather have Daisy and Rosalina as alt costumes with slight visual changes (if possible) and possibly another voice than not having them at all.
An actual character is much MUCH more work than just making a reskin with a few slight model and particle effect changes. Even if it's a direct clone character.
Also, thinking about it, Rosalina using a Luma instead of a Toad for the B move would actually make sense, hee.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Daisy should use some character or enemy from Mario Land 1.
Can we have Reggie's Mii in the game?
His final smash could be "GEOFF", causing everyone to just stop and sit the fuck down.
Regular moves include "box checking", asking playing "what's wrong with you" and spewing PR crap such as "1080p", which will put the resolution of the game to 480p and drop the frame rate to 15fps.
His final smash could be "GEOFF", causing everyone to just stop and sit the fuck down.
Regular moves include "box checking", asking playing "what's wrong with you" and spewing PR crap such as "1080p", which will put the resolution of the game to 480p and drop the frame rate to 15fps.
Red Arremer
Member
I agree. I really wish Daisy would get more references to Sarasaland. Actually, the Mario series in general. She could use the Jiang Shi enemy, one of those Moai heads, or one of the seahorses.
Nocturnowl
Member
Peach could rock that theme, see we need this to happen now.
And I need this for Diddy Kong, and a beatbox victory animation.
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