RealDeadOne
Member
Yeah I'm just going off something I remember way back just after release. I should have said "Megaman supposedly would have been in Brawl".
Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
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Yeah I'm just going off something I remember way back just after release. I should have said "Megaman supposedly would have been in Brawl".
Namco should put I-NINJA in, because I just realized Namco published I-NINJA.
I know I'm the only person on GAF who played I-NINJA, and also the only person in the world who loves it as much as I do.
But I-NINJA is awesome and I give literally zero shits that he in no way, shape, or form deserves a spot on the roster and I would be the only person in the world pleased by his appearance.
I-NINJA
I know I'm the only person on GAF who played I-NINJA, and also the only person in the world who loves it as much as I do.
But I-NINJA is awesome and I give literally zero shits that he in no way, shape, or form deserves a spot on the roster and I would be the only person in the world pleased by his appearance.
I-NINJA
I expect they top off at 42. I don't have the quote, but Sakurai mentioned along the lines that the next Smashs simply can't just have more and more characters so I suspect a mini-reboot of the cast. I can see Ness, Jigglypuff, Falco, Wolf, Ike, possibly Marth, Pokemon Kanto Trainer, Lucario, R.O.B., Ice Climbers, Snake (who should be cut no matter what) and Mr. Game & Watch getting cut or re-skinned in favor of same franchise newcomers plus the old retro oddballs. So yeah, pretty much half the cast lol.
I will have to cut some faces up though if Ness and especially Jigglypuff get cut. They're Lifers! Will also have to cut some faces up if they don't add in at least 3 new female characters especially after Brawl.
Haha, I played a tiny bit of I-Ninja while babysitting a cousin a long time ago. It was a surprisingly solid game. I miss the days of good low budget, under the radar games
You're crazy if you think more than a couple of those have even a shot at being cut; I think people are going wicked nutty with the Sakurai cuts comment
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Cutting?
CUTMAN CONFIRMED
CUTMAN CONFIRMED
Chet Rippo
Member
Reboot them with who? This isn't Tekken where they can just make up new characters.
Nocturnowl
Member
Clones?
GEMINI MAN CONFIRMED
I wonder if there is a robot master for each stage of the smash cycle.
Well Miki will have to go to the Sony version since she hates sharing the limelight with the others.
I think it's something like that. I can see the WiiU version having the Melee's story format whereas the 3DS has the Brawl-esque single experience...but 100x better hopefully. I have no doubt Sakurai will load both versions with a lot of content, it's what he does, so both should be their own entity that will connect somehow.
It also seems Lyn is now a part of FE DLC. I give credit to the FE thread. Maybe her chances are a bit better? Maybe I need sleep?
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/3ds/afej/dlc/dlc_0705.html
Damn...look at those Katanas.I'm getting a Taki vibe for some reason.
Red Arremer
Member
You're crazy. The bolded ones will never get cut ever. They are too significant to Nintendo history and/or their respective series, and Jigglypuff is one of the original 12 - at this point I really doubt Sakurai is gonna remove any of them.
Turbo Man would make more sense since he's actually race-themed. =P
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
:OI think it's something like that. I can see the WiiU version having the Melee's story format whereas the 3DS has the Brawl-esque single experience...but 100x better hopefully. I have no doubt Sakurai will load both versions with a lot of content, it's what he does, so both should be their own entity that will connect somehow.
It also seems Lyn is now a part of FE DLC. I give credit to the FE thread. Maybe her chances are a bit better? Maybe I need sleep?
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/3ds/afej/dlc/dlc_0705.html
Damn...look at those Katanas.I'm getting a Taki vibe for some reason.
OMG Lyn!!!
Please Lyn in SSB4, this could be the alternate outfit
Oh wait we need alt outfits first :S
Green Mamba
Member
I think it's something like that. I can see the WiiU version having the Melee's story format whereas the 3DS has the Brawl-esque single experience...but 100x better hopefully. I have no doubt Sakurai will load both versions with a lot of content, it's what he does, so both should be their own entity that will connect somehow.
It also seems Lyn is now a part of FE DLC. I give credit to the FE thread. Maybe her chances are a bit better? Maybe I need sleep?
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/3ds/afej/dlc/dlc_0705.html
Damn...look at those Katanas.I'm getting a Taki vibe for some reason.
Jesus, who drew those feet, Rob Liefeld?
Nocturnowl
Member
But Nitro Man is a motorcycle, I say Kokonoe made the right choice.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Artist can't seem into feet
Red Arremer
Member
Iono, looks more like a vespa to me, but fine. ._.
Wow. That made me laugh much more than I thought it could.
By the way, for those wondering what Sakurai left out for Brawl, be sure to check out this:
http://tcrf.net/Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl
Site as a whole is great too.
http://tcrf.net/Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl
Site as a whole is great too.
Red Arremer
Member
Oh fuck you, have been wasting a ton of time on that site already. :<
That is pretty interesting. I like the hidden Mr. Saturn in the Metroid texture, haha.
Green Mamba
Member
That bit about Perry possibly being used by Peach instead of her generic parasol is new to me.
It's interesting to note the order of the instance slots for the unused characters (the "forbidden seven") that are linked to on that page:
-all of the characters present in Brawl save for Jigglypuff, Toon Link, Wolf, Snake, and Sonic are listed in a single unbroken list.
-Pramai (Plusle & Minun?) is listed right before Jigglypuff, right after R.O.B., the last of the unbroken list of present characters.
-Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario (in that order) come right after Jigglypuff.
-Toon Link is listed next, followed immediately by Toon Zelda and "Toon Sheik."
-Wolf is finally listed after Toon Sheik, Dixie is listed immediately after him.
-And then Snake and Sonic are listed last (of the proper playable characters--Giga Bowser, Wario Man, the alloys, and a debug Mario are listed afterwards).
-And then combine that all with the stuff from The Cutting Room Floor about the unused individual victory songs--Wolf is the only present character who doesn't have an unused individualized victory song listed (both Jigglypuff and Toon Link do), yet both Mewtwo and Roy have one each.
Some interesting potential information on what the were planning. Makes me wonder what was going on with Jigglypuff and it almost makes it seem like Wolf was a lucky son of a gun to get in the game at all.
Also worth noting that the Pikmin are not listed separate from Olimar (all under one instance called "Pikmin") but Popo and Nana are listed separate as is the Pokemon Trainer from the individual Pokemon.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Ugh, it uses that SMRPG bullshit.
Looking at that, it seems like it may have come down to them having enough time to finish one character, and they had to choose between Wolf or Dixie.
And they chose Wolf.
And I'm suddenly a little bit sad and angry.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Chet Rippo
Member
And that's why they chose him instead.
shhhh
when i pointed that out my eyesight was questioned.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
>implications of Wolf being a clone approaching, reaching that part of the cycle confirmed
FYI from what I heard Dixie was gonna be WITH Diddy, a la Ice Climbers.
MisterHero
Super Member
yep that would've made 3 tag teams
Ice Climbers
Diddy & Dixie from DKC2
Plusle & Minun2 Pichu clones lol
Ice Climbers
Diddy & Dixie from DKC2
Plusle & Minun
Green Mamba
Member
While that may be what Sakurai initially planned, the order of the instance slots suggests that Dixie was originally going to stand on her own, at least from my interpretation--all of the "linked" characters are listed right next to one another (Popo with Nana, Zelda with Sheik, the Pokemon Trainer with all of his Pokemon, and Toon Zelda with Toon Sheik) save for ZSS, but the unbroken list of present characters I mentioned earlier follows a pretty strict order of 64 characters -> Melee newcomers -> Brawl newcomers (save for Jigglypuff).
The way everything is listed I feel pretty confident in believing that Dixie was intended to be a separate character at some point in time regardless of initial intentions. Jigglypuff is the only real anomaly throughout the whole list. Makes me wonder.
EDIT: The instance slots ordering also ends any baseless nonsense that Dr. Mario was potentially only there to be used as a costume and that Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario were only holdovers from Melee. Though it does suggest that Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario were not definite choices from the beginning (possibly along with Jigglypuff?).
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
What's to say that they made Diddy first then fiddled with the idea of Dixie being added with him, though?
Green Mamba
Member
That's also possible. But the way she's listed so late (after Wolf even) makes me doubt that a bit.
The Pramai thing also bothers me. If it was intended to be Plusle & Minun, they aren't listed separately at all.
Red Arremer
Member
How do you know that? Diddy doesn't really have any trademark moves other than his cartwheel, which is just one move and can be replaced with Dixie's hairswing.
And Wolf isn't a clone, fuck you.
Regarding Jigglypuff, Wolf and Toon Link, what also is worth noting is that up until ROB, every character actually plays a role in the SSE story, while those 3 are bonus characters you'll have to unlock after beating the entire story mode.
Sonic is the very last character that was added in the game (but was important enough to get an actual short cutscene in SSE and be part of the story), and I assume that Snake has been put in that later spot there because he was 3rd party.
I assume that they intended to stop adding characters after ROB, but then thought of bringing back some of the older characters to beef up the roster, however, scrapped most of that during development.
Pramai might've been a sort of alteration for Pichu (if Plusle & Minun is correct), and they included Jiggs, Mewtwo, Roy, Doc and Young Link as Toon Link. They also thought of giving Zelda a young version (including an according Sheik), but that, among with all the characters other than Jiggs and Tink had been scrapped. Dr. Mario, Pramai and Toon Zelda/Sheik had been scrapped before Roy and Mewtwo, though, because of the victory themes you mention.
Since Mewtwo also has a placeholder sound for the Wiimote, which Roy doesn't, I actually would argue that Mewtwo was cut in the very last second due to some issue (maybe problems with Game-Freak? Or they had problems implementing something he did?), so they had to put in another character. They didn't want to add any of the already scrapped character concepts, so they whipped up drafts for Wolf and Dixie, and Sakurai might've just liked Wolf more than Dixie, so they stuck with Wolf.
Olimar uses the Pikmin as part of his moveset, they are not separate characters, while Nana uses a different moveset from Popo (her moves have very slightly different properties in some cases). They also have different soundfiles (since they have different voices). This is the case for Pokemon Trainer as well - PT is basically a randomly selected Pokemon, while the 3 actual Pokemon are, well, the actually selected Pokemon.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I forgot who posted it but someone did say Sakurai had wanted Wolf to be in the game for a long while now.
Sakurai's a furry, I knew it. I mean, he embellished Wolf like some sort of weird leather dude.
Like I said that wiki has so many doubtful stuff (again, assumes SMRPG music).
We're just mostly fiddling with unknown data that never made it into the game anyway, so what's the point in arguing over it? It's not like these parameters could affect the next game lol
Sakurai's a furry, I knew it. I mean, he embellished Wolf like some sort of weird leather dude.
Like I said that wiki has so many doubtful stuff (again, assumes SMRPG music).
We're just mostly fiddling with unknown data that never made it into the game anyway, so what's the point in arguing over it? It's not like these parameters could affect the next game lol
Red Arremer
Member
From all the data gathered there, this is the only one that isn't factual. They even say that it is "assumed to be" the SMRPG theme.
EDIT:
To add in on this, maybe Sakurai wanted to stick with Wolf because Dixie's moveset was too similar to Diddy's, and he wanted to have a bit more variety than what Dixie would've offered. I would not be surprised if that was the case.
EDIT2:
Regarding Pramai, it might also have been an original character concept that was added in the first character draft (w/ ROB and everyone before), or that was added in between that roster and the idea of beefing it up with old characters, so it would've been a Brawl newcomer, which is why it is listed in between ROB and Jigglypuff, instead of being with the new Brawl concepts of Toon Link, Toon Zelda/Sheik, Wolf and Dixie.
I don't think they'd scrap a completed unique character moveset just because they wanted to turn him into a dual character. Whether they're adding Dixie to Diddy's moveset or giving her her own unique moveset, they're still crafting a whole new character, right?
Maybe they worked as one character, despite being two characters. As in, instead of being like the Ice Climbers where they were two separate physical bodies, they may have worked as one physical body that just looked like two... if that makes any sense. I remember there being a character in one of the Clayfighter games who worked like that.
Green Mamba
Member
I seem to remember Snakey hypothesizing that the decision for a fourth Pokemon rep came down to between Jigglypuff and Mewtwo and that Jigglypuff won out in the end (possibly due to seniority), though I don't think he had any evidence for that beyond what we have to go on here and a gut feeling, though it's not a bad idea. I kind of doubt it now, though, based on how far along Mewtwo actually was compared to the other cut characters--it would seem silly to me, at least, to fully codevelop two separate characters, one of which you know is going to be removed. Though I might be remembering his hypothesis wrong. (where is Snakey, anyway?)
This all said, it does make it seem like the original 12 aren't as bullet proof as once thought. Well, at least Jigglypuff isn't (or wasn't during Brawl's development, I don't know).
That crossed my mind, though that would harm the idea that they were being made to salvage the Pichu moveset.
This is, of course, assuming Pramai is Plusle & Minun.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Look at Diddy's side and down B's though. They feel like an afterthought.
And again, it's not "scrapping" a new character when you put it as a partner of a new character.
Also for your second statement, by that logic Roy is a "whole new character" and not a clone
Peanut popguns? Jetbarrel? Those are pretty signature Diddy moves.
Plus Diddy has a tail that he uses in several attacks, while Dixie doesn't.
Plus failing to utilize her ponytail for her attacks would be absolutely criminal. Several instances of the helicopter twirl (one for the running attack, one for recovery), plenty of basic ponytail swinging attacks, and of course the grab has got to be done with the ponytail.
And besides, I was more teasing Ookami-kun about Wolf being a clone than defending Dixie.
It's not nearly as fun when you're the one who gets upset.
Red Arremer
Member
OK, to clear up my thought process here, now that I'm puzzling this together mentally, this is how I think it went down, step by step, and a bit easier to understand (mostly for myself, cause that first post confused myself). Since Pramai is in between Jigglypuff and ROB, I am actually sure it is counted a Brawl newcomer.
A. - First character draft:
All characters that ended up in Brawl save for Jigglypuff, Toon Link and Wolf had been decided on as the initial roster. This also might have been where the Pramai-character has been developed in, but it must've been dropped very early in the development of the roster.
A.1 - Pramai:
If Pramai was not in the first character list that had been developed, it has been added somewhere in between A and B.
B. - Second character draft (veterans return):
This is where the characters Jigglypuff, Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, Roy and Toon Link had been created (Toon Zelda/Sheik maybe as well), most likely in order to beef up the roster that was perceived as too small - by Sakurai, Nintendo, whoever. The development team decided to re-introduce some of the veterans that they had removed from the initial roster, and they also re-skinned Melee's Young Link as Toon Link.
At the very latest somewhere during this phase, Pramai had been dropped (maybe in favor for the other 2 Pokemon), and Dr. Mario was removed in this timeframe, as well. If Toon Zelda/Sheik had been included in this second draft, they have to have been removed here as well.
C. - Bye, Roy:
After the scrap of Pramai, Dr. Mario and possibly Toon Zelda/Sheik, the idea of character jingles had been removed. This also the stage of development where it was decided to remove Roy from the roster.
D. - Mewtwo Problems => Wolf:
This stage of the development was very close to the release. I even would go so far and think that it might've been one of the reasons why the release date was postponed. Mewtwo seemed to cause some serious trouble to the development team. They wanted to keep him, but either due to some gameplay aspect or some issues with Game-Freak, Mewtwo ultimately was scrapped. This why Mewtwo also has the most leftover data. This was also after the victory jingle idea had been scrapped.
Since Mewtwo was gone, the development team needed another character to fill the spot. They drafted Wolf, Dixie Kong and maybe Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik (if she wasn't in the B-roster), and it was decided that Wolf was the best choice for some reason (maybe it was because of character preference from Sakurai, or because he felt that he would bring the biggest variety to the roster in comparison to the other 2).
EDIT:
OK, I think I'm done with editing my post.
A. - First character draft:
All characters that ended up in Brawl save for Jigglypuff, Toon Link and Wolf had been decided on as the initial roster. This also might have been where the Pramai-character has been developed in, but it must've been dropped very early in the development of the roster.
A.1 - Pramai:
If Pramai was not in the first character list that had been developed, it has been added somewhere in between A and B.
B. - Second character draft (veterans return):
This is where the characters Jigglypuff, Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, Roy and Toon Link had been created (Toon Zelda/Sheik maybe as well), most likely in order to beef up the roster that was perceived as too small - by Sakurai, Nintendo, whoever. The development team decided to re-introduce some of the veterans that they had removed from the initial roster, and they also re-skinned Melee's Young Link as Toon Link.
At the very latest somewhere during this phase, Pramai had been dropped (maybe in favor for the other 2 Pokemon), and Dr. Mario was removed in this timeframe, as well. If Toon Zelda/Sheik had been included in this second draft, they have to have been removed here as well.
C. - Bye, Roy:
After the scrap of Pramai, Dr. Mario and possibly Toon Zelda/Sheik, the idea of character jingles had been removed. This also the stage of development where it was decided to remove Roy from the roster.
D. - Mewtwo Problems => Wolf:
This stage of the development was very close to the release. I even would go so far and think that it might've been one of the reasons why the release date was postponed. Mewtwo seemed to cause some serious trouble to the development team. They wanted to keep him, but either due to some gameplay aspect or some issues with Game-Freak, Mewtwo ultimately was scrapped. This why Mewtwo also has the most leftover data. This was also after the victory jingle idea had been scrapped.
Since Mewtwo was gone, the development team needed another character to fill the spot. They drafted Wolf, Dixie Kong and maybe Toon Zelda/Toon Sheik (if she wasn't in the B-roster), and it was decided that Wolf was the best choice for some reason (maybe it was because of character preference from Sakurai, or because he felt that he would bring the biggest variety to the roster in comparison to the other 2).
EDIT:
OK, I think I'm done with editing my post.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Which only amplifies what I said, Side B or Down B of the tandem could be the Dixie Grab or Dixie Spin, or the Down B is "switching" between characters. Diddy's Side or Down B are very... well... off.
Oh I know that. :3
Red Arremer
Member
Actually, I think I fucked up regarding the victory jingles. Gah, I shouldn't write such lengthy posts without any sleep.
Obviously, the idea of character jingles was BROUGHT UP after Doc and Pramai (and maybe Toon Zelda) were scrapped, but scrapped AFTER Roy was removed.
Obviously, the idea of character jingles was BROUGHT UP after Doc and Pramai (and maybe Toon Zelda) were scrapped, but scrapped AFTER Roy was removed.
Wasn't there an interview during the development process where Sakurai brings up the character jingles? The timing of that interview could give a bit of an indication when all these processes happened.
Red Arremer
Member
Yes, someone mentioned that Sakurai responded on a Japanese blog site (I forgot what exactly it was) that they wanted to give every character their own victory theme, and he brought up Meta Knight as an example (which might be why he is the only one to actually get that jingle).
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
Sakurai said Dixie was only ever going to be included as a partner for Diddy, and she got dropped as soon as he dropped that idea. That was from something cednym translated.
Red Arremer
Member
If that is the case, then Ookami-kun's suggestion that they have been fiddling with Dixie as Diddy's partner during the late stage of development seems quite possible. Since the character was scrapped anyway, she didn't need to be moved next to Diddy's instance slot technically - and actually, she wouldn't have needed to be moved to that instance slot at all, since the instance slot just determines which character to load. It doesn't matter what number it says, the other characters are just next to each other for coding convenience.
However, it really depends on when Sakurai said that. If it was after Mewtwo's removal, then Ookami-kun's version is likely. If that was said before, then my theory, that she was one of 2-3 possible drafts to replace Mewtwo after it was decided they had to remove him, seems more likely to me.
However, it really depends on when Sakurai said that. If it was after Mewtwo's removal, then Ookami-kun's version is likely. If that was said before, then my theory, that she was one of 2-3 possible drafts to replace Mewtwo after it was decided they had to remove him, seems more likely to me.
MisterHero
Super Member
I'd imagine they'd have team moves like that.
They could still revive the concept with Kiddy if people don't want Diddy altered.
I do feel like the facehugger move was probably less considered than others. Also, if he makes it unaltered, bananas will ensure the return of tripping (in their presence, at least). >
Green Mamba
Member
Don't forget, Red Arremer, that Sonic was added late in the game and likely had some sort of effect on who eventually got in and who didn't. I'd imagine Sonic's inclusion was more of a factor as to why Mewtwo was dropped than anything particular about Mewtwo.
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