Here's hoping the next Smash Bros. doesn't ship on a dual layer disc that your Wii has to be sent off for cleaning to read! (Bad memories. Very bad). I'll be very surprised if we don't see at least a teaser trailer next E3. I wouldn't be that surprised if it launched next Fall. Development shouldn't take this long, especially with Namco on board.
My launch day Wii is chugging along. It's not flawless however so I won't WiiU BC is up to scratch so I can peacefully retire it for everything but homebrew.
Eh. I was trying to give an example of someone who's also funny about his Nintendo support and stay Smash related. Did you want me to pretend he announced a Boktai sequel?
Eh. I was trying to give an example of someone who's also funny about his Nintendo support and stay Smash related. Did you want me to pretend he announced a Boktai sequel?
Regarding the old Sakurai loving his Kirby games I feel it was him being pretty humble in the first 2 and then in Brawl he pretty much figured he'd earned the right to go a bit Kirby Crazy, just that he went a bit too far so it comes kind of noticeable, blame SSE.
If anything it's the large amount of Kirby series items that bugs me.
So much love it only got one stage. Even Donkey "There's more than that one SNES Super Famicom game?" Kong got more than that.
Melee gave it more love. Two stages and a retro revival (even if two of them a Whipsy Woods based). I suppose you could argue that it got two new items, but the N64 version also gave the series two.
I'd say Sakurai hasn't been overly biased towards his series.
The Halberd gets to double up by being like the only Nintendo themed setting in SSE, closest otherwise are generic mountain for Ice Climbers which is filled with Kirby's air ride music for the last half despite Kirby not even being there.
Yes if you leave SSE out then it does reduce the Kirbyness but he really does overrun that mode with the Pink Puff and friends.
Plus Halberd being a good stage made up of 2 parts with a massive music selection>DK's two stages of poop.
DK don't even get an AT, but Knuckle Joe is there and bizarrely overpowered, i'll not let this injustice slide.
But really it's just the items that bother me I mean Superspicy Curry, Cracker Launcher, Dragoon, Maxim Tomato, Warp Star and the Parasol in melee. Good items but maybe we could have gone to other series as well, it's like a mario and kirby bonanza in the item selection, share the wealth guys.
Edit: oh hang on apparently the Cracker Launcher is merely like a Kirby's air ride item and not actually one, you win this round Sakurai.
Of the two supporting characters you mentioned, I'd prefer Fiora; we don't need yet another princess. And her relationship to Shulk would be easier to fit into a story mode. But mostly because her Final Smash is guaranteed to be awesome.
NEMESIS BITCHES
Agreed with Fallen Arm and Metal Face as stage/boss. Though it might be difficult to show just how huge the Arm is in comparison to the fighters - fighting on a small section of the Arm wouldn't be very interesting. As an alternative, I'd be fine with a platform that flies around various locations in the world, like the Mario Sunshine stage in Brawl (
Junks would be a good option
). And Metal Face would be a far better boss than the generic robots in Brawl.
I'm personally hoping for some third party representation from Square-Enix. Even if Final Fantasy has moved to PlayStation, their Nintendo console outings would still be very popular.
In particular, I'd love to see Neku from The World Ends With You as a playable character. He has a vast set of techniques to choose from, ranging from simple slashes to powerful elemental attacks, and an ultimate (well, three different Fusions) to use as a Final Smash.
Dragon Quest characters such as the slime would make excellent Assist Trophies. I can't see a slime being playable (what would its attacks even be?), but as an assist it would be perfect.
Welcome to GAF! There's a few things you mentioned that I don't entirely agree with, but your post is really well put together and you obviously invested a lot of thought into it, so you're off to a great start! You also have my vote for Xenoblade love in Smash 4, I'd love it if you were right there.
I do not at all agree that Kid Icarus is likely to get two newcomers, and I have never been convinced that Sakurai shows disproportionate love for Kirby. It may have three characters in Brawl, but honestly, I don't see how anyone could say the series doesn't deserve it. It is one of Nintendo's largest and most successful franchises (certainly larger than Star Fox!), and I would honestly say it deserved a second playable rep in Melee--two newcomers in Brawl was fine because the series was overdue (And many, many people predicted Meta Knight. He was hardly a shocker). And the Subspace Emissary was not written by Sakurai, so we can't know how much of it was his idea and how much of it was just the writer catering to what he thought Sakurai would want. That's too much of a big question mark to make any sort of direct statement of bias. The only area in Smash I would say Kirby is absolutely overrepresented by Sakurai in is item selection, but, uh, I wouldn't consider that the be all end all.
I don't think you can transfer all of this representation for one of Nintendo's largest and most successful franchises over to Sakurai's "new baby" (which he promptly abandoned as a potential new series after finishing). They aren't analogues at all. One new character, sure, but no way is Kid Icarus getting two new characters. Anything beyond Palutena (and even her I wouldn't be one-hundred percent certain on) and you're just being silly. They're not comparable--one is a long running and hugely successful franchise of Sakurai's creation that has been repped since the first Smash (and underrepped I would say in the second!) and the other is an old two game series not of Sakurai's creation that Sakurai revived in a single moderately successful game (and Sakurai never intends to return to the series either). You can't conflate the two at all, that's just ridiculous.
Well, a lot of people don't think it does. But we know Falco only got in on account of being a clone added late in Melee's development. Wolf is a big question mark (may have something to do with him being planned for Melee in place of Falco, plus he also seems to have been a late addition). But Star Fox didn't go from one character to three after a one game revival.
And Uprising is a good game but it wishes it was half the game Star Fox 64 is.
Star Fox game... Good? No. Decent? Yes actually. They're average at worst. With that said video game quality has NEVER been the reference for when a rep gets in.
I'm going to stand up and say KI games before Uprising were terrible.
COME AT ME BROS! MY PECTORALS CAN HANDLE YOUR FOOD THROWING.
I finally gained the ability to post today and I've been following this thread for as long as I've been registered on GAF so please excuse the length of this mega-post as it's the culmination of a lot of stuff that's been on my mind recently. I really just wanted to throw out a few things that I think are really important to remember when discussing the next Smash Bros. games.
1. Sakurai's Loves His Own Franchises
Judging by the amount of Kirby content in Brawl (Three playable characters, a robust single-player mode that played like a direct sequel to The Great Cave Offensive in Kirby Superstar and prominently featured all three of the Kirby reps in crucial story positions (Kirby vs. Mario in the very first stage, King Dedede's Badges and his entire subplot, The Halberd and Metaknight's fight to get it back, etc.), music from EVERY game in the series (including multiple songs from Kirby Air Ride, Sakurai's pet project during the GC era and widely regarded as his weakest game**), a truckload of stickers and trophies, etc.) it's pretty clear that Sakurai loves his games and will make sure that his characters will get represented. Going into Brawl, did anyone really expect Metaknight to get a slot?
I'm not saying this is a bad thing of course: Kirby is one of Nintendo's biggest franchises after all (Hell, it's been getting more love in recent years than Metroid). It's just good to keep in mind that if Sakurai personally loves a character, that's character's going to get in.
With that being said, I fully expect a massive love fest for Kid Icarus: Uprising in Smash U. At this point Palutena is pretty much the only character that is a lock to be playable in the next games since
it's extremely obvious that the Great Sacred Treasure Mech at the end of Uprising was CLEARLY manufactured to be Pit's new FS
and, though many people will probably disagree with me, I think we'll be getting TWO Icarus reps in the next game, similar to what happened with the Kirby series in Brawl. Magnus, Medusa,
Viridi, and Hades
all have extremely high chances of becoming playable (and whichever of those four isn't playable will certainly be an AT, single-player boss
(which is what I expect to happen to Phyrron and the Aurum)
or, at the very least, a trophy) and I can definitely see the Space Pirate Ship,
The Reset Bomb Forest, The Lunar Sanctum and Destroyed Skyworld
as stages. Not to mention the music in Uprising is, no pun intended, divine, so I expect TONS of it to make it into Brawl.
Internationally, Icarus is sort of the signature game of the 3DS and since it's acted as the rebirth of a classic character who's already made his Smash debut, Uprising content is a NO-BRAINER.
2. Once an AT, Always an AT
This is something that I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me on but I feel really strongly about this: if a character was relegated to an AT slot previously, I highly doubt they'll be "upgraded" to a playable slot.
That said, I think there's one notable exception to this rule: Little Mac. Since his inclusion in Brawl, his series has been revived, he's gotten a complete re-design and the Punch-Out franchise is getting more love than ever before with that Kickstarter Punch-Out book, Little Mac's inclusion in Captain Rainbow, and the game's re-release on 3DS VC (before TONS of other NES games that usually would've been thrown up on the eShop first).
On the whole though, I think that if a character was introduced as an AT (unless something major happens to the character and their franchise as is the case with Mac and Punch-Out) they are going to stay an AT.
3. Revivals and Newbies
So far we know three things about the next Smash Bros. titles for certain, all straight from Sakurai's mouth: the roster isn't going to get much bigger than Braw's, he's actively looking to revive old franchises and characters, and there will be new playable characters.
Based on these three facts, I'm guessing a few things:
First, we're going to get another NES character revival. This is pretty much fact. We got Ice Climbers in Melee, we got Pit in Brawl and my guess is that for Smash 4 we're either going to get Takamaru or Mach Rider. Why? Takamaru fills TWO niche purposes: he's retro and he's exclusive to Japan. Much like Marth in Melee, Sakurai has the opportunity to introduce the west to a character who's never made it Stateside and based on Mysterious Castle's confirmed inclusion in Nintendoland and Takaumaru's inclusion in that Dynasty Warriors game, it seems pretty obvious that Takamaru's is being primed for a return.
That being said, above all the other NES franchises, I think Mach Rider has the best opportunity to reboot, something that Sakurai has already mentioned he's extremely interested in bringing about for a lucky retro character. Mach Rider music has been in Smash Bros. since Melee, the character got a redesign as a trophy in Melee and there was even a rumor about a year back about a Mach Rider revival for 3DS for Mach Rider Unchained. I can't put my finger on it but I think that if any NES character other than Takamaru makes the cut in Smash U, it'll be Mach Rider.
It's a little tougher to judge what will make the cut from the Wii era.
Rhythm Heaven is a franchise that nobody's doubting will be included in some form but a playable character? People can make the case for Karate Joe, The Samurai and Marshal since they've been in multiple games in the series but incorporating one of them into a playable slot might prove difficult. A Rhythm Heaven stage though? That's about as much of a guarantee as Palutena.
Wii Sports and Tomodachi Collection are both mega-popular franchises whose success make the idea of a playable Mii all the more likely. A Wuhu Island stage is a given.
Xenoblade is probably in the best position to make a Smash Bros. debut. Not only was it critically-acclaimed internationally, it was also ranked the 6th best Nintendo game of all time by Famitsu readers earlier this year (above Mario RPG, the original Legend of Zelda and Super Smash Bros. Melee) and is the poster child for fan movements around the world (see Operation Rainfall). Shulk, much like Palutena, I see as an almost guarantee. The character is highly requested, has tons of potential for an original move set, and, to be honest, simply LOOKS like a character primed for Smash.
Regarding Xenoblade's supporting cast, I could also see Melia or Fiora grabbing a playable slot since Smash is in dire need of new female fighters and both characters have massive fan bases. Metal Face screams boss battle and the other party members like Dunban, Riki, Reyn and Sharla could all be made into ATs. Not to mention, Sakurai loves his mechs and Xenoblade is a game that is definitely not short on them. 3D Trophies of all the major Face Mechon? Yes please.
And, above all else, Xenoblade has one location that simply SCREAMS Smash Bros. stage: The Fallen Arm. With the Mechonis and Bionis fighting in the background, fighting could take place on the hand, if not on floating platforms. I mean look at this:
Just like Kid Icarus Uprising, Xenoblade also has an incredible soundtrack and everything from the Main Theme to Gaur Plains, the battle themes and Beyond the Sky has great potential to be remixed. Also, *FANBOY MOMENT*
imagine if in Subspace there's a battle between Shulk and ROB and he's all like "You vile Mechon! You'll pay for what you did to the Emperor and Fiora!" and ROB's all like "WTF".
*END FANBOY MOMENT*
And as a final note, anyone saying Pac-Man won't be one of the new 3rd party characters is completely out of their mind. A Pac-Man maze stage is also a total given. Miyamoto has gone on record stating that Pac-Man is his favorite non-Nintendo game (he even developed Pac-Man Vs.) and Pac-Man has already teamed up with Mario in Mario Kart Arcade GP. Given Namco is developing the next Smash and the character's status as an icon of retro gaming, Pac-Man is a SHOE-IN on the level of Palutena and Shulk. As for other third party characters, I dunno if I can make a solid call but if I had to venture a guess, I'd say Slime from Dragon Quest.
---------------------------
Alright, those are just a few of my thoughts. Go nuts.
**Just wanted to point out that Kirby Air Ride is one of my favorite games of the past decade so I definitely do not share the opinion that it's shit.
PS: Since Smash Bros. is a franchise with its own unique locales now, I fully expect the Smash Skiff stage from the Subspace Emissary to make a return as a stage in Smash U:
---------------------------
TL;DR: My Predictions (? Denotes a Maybe)
New Playable Characters:
Palutena (Kid Icarus)
Hades
(Kid Icarus)
Little Mac (Punch-Out) (?)
Takamaru (Mysterious Castle)
Mach Rider (Mach Rider) (?)
Shulk (Xenoblade)
Mii (Wii Series)
Karate Joe (Rhythm Heaven) (?)
Pac-Man (Pac-Man)
Slime (Dragon Quest) (?)
Stages:
Space Pirate Ship (Kid Icarus Uprising)
Fallen Arm (Xenoblade)
Wuhu Island (Wii Sports Resort / Pilotwings / Mario Kart 7)
Smash Skiff (Super Smash Bros. Brawl)
Pac-Man Maze (Pac-Man)
I don't think i've ever agreed with someone as much as I agree with you. Holy shit, i am NOT being sarcastic, I agree with everything you said RIGHT DOWN TO THE AT MENTIONS. Eerie stuff.
10 points for being a KI:U fan & 10 more points for being a Xenoblade fan.
I think that'd be pretty amazing, especially if you could see the Tower of Spirits in the background. Maybe it could be all broken up when the match starts, and as the match goes on you could see beams of light coming from the four temples of the world to reunite the tower.
The only way I can see Kid Icarus getting more than one newcomer is if they decide to pull a Melee and introduce quick model swap clones. Beyond that it seems to be wishful thinking and misinterpretation of past events.
(and this is just my opinion but I would certainly hope Viridi doesn't get in before pretty much any other potential rep considering she's never actually seen doing anything)
Very nice first post, I also tend to agree with what you've said. I should really check out Xenoblade going by the amount of people wanting Shulk ( which still sounds like an odd name) to be included off one game. Perhaps help me understand why he should get in over unrepresented series.
*Cough* AW, Layton, Chibi Robo, all the others I can't recall * Cough*
Agreed with Fallen Arm and Metal Face as stage/boss. Though it might be difficult to show just how huge the Arm is in comparison to the fighters - fighting on a small section of the Arm wouldn't be very interesting. As an alternative, I'd be fine with a platform that flies around various locations in the world, like the Mario Sunshine stage in Brawl (
Junks would be a good option
). And Metal Face would be a far better boss than the generic robots in Brawl.
Flying around the Fallen Arm, Mechonis Filed and Gaur Plains on
Junks
is such a good idea. Good on you for that one!
Senator Soufflé;41748705 said:
I should really check out Xenoblade going by the amount of people wanting Shulk ( which still sounds like an odd name) to be included off one game. Perhaps help me understand why he should get in over unrepresented series.
-Critically-acclaimed JRPG from Nintendo's newest first-party developer
-Internationally regarded as the best JRPG of the generation
-Was rated the 6th greatest Nintendo game of all time above Super Mario RPG, the original Legend of Zelda, and Super Smash Bros. Melee by Famitsu readers this year
-The best cast of original characters in a Nintendo game since lord knows when
-Extremely rich universe with vast locales and extremely unique locations
-Shulk, Melia, Fiora, and the rest of the cast have an extremely vocal fan base
-Incredible soundtrack filled with recognizable battle and location themes composed by ACE+ and Yoko Shimomura
-Was the game that finally proved Nintendo listens to their fans since it was localized almost entirely due to fan appeals from the West
-The game's developer, Monolith Soft, helped immensely with Brawl's development.
That's why Xenoblade is going to be ALL OVER the next Smash. No other currently unrepresented IP from Nintendo even comes close in terms of importance to the hardcore gamer. It'll get at least one playable rep, a stage, an AT and tons of music. I could even see two playable reps if they want to include for females in the roster as Fiora and Melia have a MASSIVE fan base.
I don't think i've ever agreed with someone as much as I agree with you. Holy shit, i am NOT being sarcastic, I agree with everything you said RIGHT DOWN TO THE AT MENTIONS. Eerie stuff.
10 points for being a KI:U fan & 10 more points for being a Xenoblade fan.
Good to hear it, haha. I'm glad someone agrees with me! I didn't really say anything that wasn't already obvious to someone paying attention to the trends of the series and Sakurai's desires.
Xenoblade definitely has to make an appearance in some way. It's a great new IP (people tend to criticize Nintendo for not making significant new ones), and there's so much you can take from it. I love the stage idea, and I can't leave out the music. It's absolutely fantastic.
I wouldn't mind streamlining some characters, though. A few franchises seem to be overrepresented. Three Star Fox characters seems like too many characters, for example.
I wouldn't mind streamlining some characters, though. A few franchises seem to be overrepresented. Three Star Fox characters seems like too many characters, for example.
Yeah, that's something I didn't really get to touch on in my mega-post but something I wanted to bring up.
When Sakurai first mentioned that he doesn't think the roster could get much bigger and people took that as "NO MORE NEW CHARACTERS" at first, I immediately read it as "I'm cutting a lot of the Brawl cast and introducing new characters instead".
Aside from Olimar, Pit, Dedede, Metaknight, Wario, ROB and ZSS, I think the rest of the cast will be up for the chopping block. Ike will probably be replaced by Krom from Fire Emblem Awakening, Lucario will probably be replaced by the new flavor of the month Pokemon or Mewtwo, Lucas and Wolf or Falco will almost certainly be kicked out as well; same goes for Toon Link and even Snake and Sonic who might not make a return as 3rd party reps. I even think Diddy might be reworked into a tag-team with Dixie.
On the mention of a Slime as a possible character, any chance Nintendo could go for a Slime Knight? They could do an interesting mechanic, where at a certain damage level, the knight (high offensive capabilities) gets knocked off, and you only get the Slime (high defensive capabilities, maybe an ability to float down like Kirby(but not fly up))? Would be a variation of the Ice Climbers, I suppose.
Yeah, that's something I didn't really get to touch on in my mega-post but something I wanted to bring up.
When Sakurai first mentioned that he doesn't think the roster could get much bigger and people took that as "NO MORE NEW CHARACTERS" at first, I immediately read it as "I'm cutting a lot of the Brawl cast and introducing new characters instead".
Aside from Olimar, Pit, Dedede, Metaknight, Wario, ROB and ZSS, I think the rest of the cast will be up for the chopping block. Ike will probably be replaced by Krom from Fire Emblem Awakening, Lucario will probably be replaced by the new flavor of the month Pokemon or Mewtwo, Lucas and Wolf or Falco will almost certainly be kicked out as well; same goes for Toon Link and even Snake and Sonic who might not make a return as 3rd party reps. I even think Diddy might be reworked into a tag-team with Dixie.
For some reason, I'm not enthusiastic about the idea of a huge roster. I'd rather see Brawl characters cut before adding new characters. I think eliminating clones is a great way to freshen up the roster a bit. Even if someone like Ganondorf will stay, giving him a unique moveset would benefit his presence as a character.
But I do think the original twelve should always be in the game. Maybe they could receive new moves.
Sakurai could easily introduce more than one NES character. One would work well for the reveal trailer much like Ice Climbers and Pit did, but nothing to stop him having another one as a quirky unlockable. Hopefully the final unlockable is, again, someone a little outside of the norm.
Aside from Olimar, Pit, Dedede, Metaknight, Wario, ROB and ZSS, I think the rest of the cast will be up for the chopping block. Ike will probably be replaced by Krom from Fire Emblem Awakening, Lucario will probably be replaced by the new flavor of the month Pokemon or Mewtwo
I never liked the "BEEP BOOP" 2D shit about Game & Watch. And I had friends when I was younger so I had no need for ROB. They both mean absolutely nothing to me, so I wouldn't shed a single tear if they got cut. I don't think they're good characters at all.
I never liked the "BEEP BOOP" 2D shit about Game & Watch. And I had friends when I was younger so I had no need for ROB. They both mean absolutely nothing to me, so I wouldn't shed a single tear if they got cut. I don't think they're good characters at all.
For some reason, I'm not enthusiastic about the idea of a huge roster. I'd rather see Brawl characters cut before adding new characters. I think eliminating clones is a great way to freshen up the roster a bit. Even if someone like Ganondorf will stay, giving him a unique moveset would benefit his presence as a character.
But I do think the original twelve should always be in the game. Maybe they could receive new moves.
I'm not a fan of this logic, I'm going to say. Why would anyone prefer cutting characters before adding new ones? The more old characters present the better, I say. I really don't like depriving people of the characters they like to play, and I see no reason why certain players should be alienated while others should not.
Also, Afro Gunsou, I have one more beef with your first post--the idea that Takamaru being Japan exclusive is some how a point for him instead of against him. The Fire Emblem characters in Melee were not chosen to be included to introduce the series to the West--in fact, Sakurai considered removing them from the Western releases before being convinced otherwise. The only other Japan exclusive player character we have as an example is from a series already established in America. I'm not convinced.
Though I do have to give you props for pimping Mach Rider.
Neither are going anywhere, ESPECIALLY Game and Watch. He's here to stay. He's got a game in Nintendoland based on Octopus, the upcoming Game and Wario, Game & Watch reproductions are Club Nintendo gifts and he was one of the few characters in Sakurai's sketch a few months back.
R.O.B. I could maybe see getting the axe but considering he has an entirely new move set, his cameos in everything Nintendo recently (including the new Tomodachi Collection for 3DS that was revealed at Nintendo Direct a few days ago), and his place in Nintendo's history, I actually think that if ANYONE from Brawl's cast remains, R.O.B. will.
I feel like now's the perfect time to place my bet on returning characters. I'm guessing the original 12, 8 from Melee and 8 from Brawl will be the only characters returning making for 28 returning fighters (though I wouldn't rule out Sonic and Snake, potentially making the returning roster 30):
THE ORIGINAL 12:
Mario
Donkey Kong
Link
Samus/ZSS
Yoshi
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Luigi
Captain Falcon
Ness
Jigglypuff
MELEE:
Bowser
Peach
Zelda/Sheik
Ice Climbers
Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Ganondorf
BRAWL:
Metaknight
Pit
Wario
Olimar
Diddy Kong
PKMN Trainer
King Dedede
R.O.B.
GUEST CHARACTERS:
Sonic (?)
Solid Snake (?)
Add the 10 new characters I predicted to this...
NEW FIGHTERS:
Palutena (Kid Icarus)
Hades
(Kid Icarus)
Little Mac (Punch-Out) (?)
Takamaru (Mysterious Castle)
Mach Rider (Mach Rider) (?)
Shulk (Xenoblade)
Mii (Wii Series)
Karate Joe (Rhythm Heaven) (?)
Pac-Man (Pac-Man)
Slime (Dragon Quest) (?)
And BAM, a roster that's only slightly bigger than Brawl's (40) but filled with variety and a bunch of new characters.
