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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
- Thread starter Snakeyes
- Start date
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Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
It's just a weird rationale that there's this "flavor of the month" Pokemon when it has been proven to be false (much like how Fire Emblem is "flavor of the month" despite proof). It just... irks me. Apparently Gen 1 are fine to be permanent additions regardless. Why aren't there people saying that hey, they could replace trainer with another one using another trio? Too unique? Then why is Lucario apparently being replaced? Oh because he's flavor of the month.
Yeah Pichu isn't playable in Brawl, but let me ask you, do you want it to be playable again with it being a weaker, shittier Pikachu? It's not cutting for "flavor" as it is cutting for useless characters, especially when the planned P+M was meant to be there.
No, it's the trail of thought that it's immune from anything you throw at it is what bothers me.
Green Mamba
Member
I agree the flavor of the month reasoning is weak, but most people assume Pokemon Trainer is immune because of the reasons I listed, not because of some Generation 1 bias. It's three characters (Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard), not one.
Think objectively--who out of the four Pokemon representatives in Smash is the most likely to be cut? The mascot? The main character who consists of three separate movesets? The traditional Smash character present in all three? Or the singular new guy? You could argue Jigglypuff wasn't originally going to be in Brawl (which is still an assumption based on shaky evidence that could mean anything), but that's why the argument usually falls to Jigglypuff or Lucario, and people are really attached to Jigglypuff after three Smash Bros. titles. Lucario has the short straw regardless of how you cut it and no amount of "gen wunner" whining will make any difference.
People don't assume Pokemon Trainer is immune due to Generation 1 bias. They assume he's immune because they understand basic logic.
I'M FINISHED!
Um exCUSE me Sakurai but CLEARLY the best choice for Smash Bros would be my fav niche character HOWEVER you are clearly INCOMPETENT and
What if a Pokemon character gets demoted? Maybe Lucario is in the Trainer's arsenal and Charizard get his own slot? What if they use the trainer for new reps? What if they add another trainer? What if they add no new gen Pokemon? The possibilities, I can't breathe, the room is spinning! Must...remain...calm...pop Xanax...and stop trying to think like a Sakurai.
Black-Wind
Member
Oh, I would LOVE to have JPuff get shit-canned in favor of a new Pokemon. Hell, I would love for there to be a "Pokemon Champion/ Rival/ Dragon Master" that plays like PT but with 3 Brand New Pokemon. Hell ... I wouldn't throw a fit if PT's Pokemon were upgraded to w/e the 6th gen starters become (if they have good designs and GF doesn't pull a gen V on me ...).
But Pokemon has many sides to it and as such there's a lot people over look. PT makes COMPLETE sense seeing as that's the character you play as. Using the first gen starters also make a lot of sense given that they are the most popular and well known ... they could change to an other gen but w/e. Pikachu makes prefect sense seeing as it's the series mascot and Mewtwo makes prefect sense as it's the series villain among other things.
But that's a ton of gen 1 and I'm 100% sure we're gonna get something new for that "new gen" slot that Lucario holds. I would love for Jiggs to step down so that we could get some more gen reps and have fewer gen one Pokemon. But its been 3 games so I don't see that happening ... right now I'm being conservative so I just think everyone (Pika/ PT/ Jiggs/ Mewtwo) will come back in some form and Lucario will be replaced by a gen 6 Pokemon.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
But then if you argue that the trainer can be replaced with another trainer using three different starters, the most common retort as that you'd be accused of being insane. And again, the "uniqueness" can't be pulled because the Pokemon in Brawl are definitely unique. And then there's that Mewtwo and P+M being playable.
Besides, what's stopping them from giving Pokemon many slots? It's not like it can't stand beside Mario as far as giant franchises are concerned. Give Pokemon 8 slots.
I'M FINISHED!
Um exCUSE me Sakurai but CLEARLY the best choice for Smash Bros would be my fav niche character HOWEVER you are clearly INCOMPETENT and
Michael Pachter went on a vision quest and that is what he saw...
I'M FINISHED!
Um exCUSE me Sakurai but CLEARLY the best choice for Smash Bros would be my fav niche character HOWEVER you are clearly INCOMPETENT and
We are all Pachter.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Pachter for Smash
Black-Wind
Member
FOTM just means that a character is a temp-rep for the series because they're the face for the newest installment/ addition to the series. When something's whole reason for being in is because it's the rep for the latest installment than ... that character isn't left with much of a leg to stand on when they're no longer the latest rep and now a new character is being used to promote the latest installment to the series which the company will want in smash.
And Pichu played just as he was supposed to ... he IS the weakest electric type Pokemon. Not ever character in a fighting game is mean't to be top tier or competitive, there are many who are mean't to be weak. It's pretty common for fighting games actually. That way a skilled player can handicap them self.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Samus has 100% damage, it means she will be able to fight better.
But what if said character is still popular? Would he still be FotM?
And there's a joke character being actually useful and there's a totally, totally useless character. And the salt of the wound is that Pichu is a joke version of an already ultra-nerfed Pikachu!
But what if said character is still popular? Would he still be FotM?
And there's a joke character being actually useful and there's a totally, totally useless character. And the salt of the wound is that Pichu is a joke version of an already ultra-nerfed Pikachu!
Green Mamba
Member
I feel like I'm going in circles--you really don't understand why people call foul when someone suggests replacing three original movesets as opposed to someone suggesting replacing one?
And I have never said that Pokemon couldn't have eight slots. I don't care--I am merely arguing against your assertion that the only reason Lucario is singled out is because he's not from the first generation, which is pure bullshit.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Oh I know it's not the only reason. It's just that after saying that, you'd have people wanting Mewtwo back. And it seems like it's going in circles because I reiterate reasons.
But in the end what we speculate will verily not reflect in the future roster. We'll all laugh/cry when we see the roster.
But in the end what we speculate will verily not reflect in the future roster. We'll all laugh/cry when we see the roster.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
I don't think Mario or Zelda will get characters purely to stay on par with Pokemon. One of the only things we know about this game is that Sakurai feels like Brawl's roster was pretty much big enough, so I don't think we'll see characters added for inflation purposes like that.
He does have a point thought, it would be weird imo, to see Pokemon ending up with the most representation no matter how big pokemon is.
hehe Cosby.
Red Arremer
Member
In Melee, it tied with Mario for the most characters (5 each). It does so again in Brawl. If Mewtwo was included, it would've beaten every other series.
Counting transformations, it HAS the most characters (6, and Zelda beats out Mario as well).
Of course, that isn't counting Wario, Yoshi and the 2 monkeys - if those were added to Mario's counter, Mario is going to be the victor even if Mewtwo and a Gen 5 or 6 Pokemon were added to SSB4.
Counting transformations, it HAS the most characters (6, and Zelda beats out Mario as well).
Of course, that isn't counting Wario, Yoshi and the 2 monkeys - if those were added to Mario's counter, Mario is going to be the victor even if Mewtwo and a Gen 5 or 6 Pokemon were added to SSB4.
Shadow Hog
Member
Red Arremer
Member
Brainfarts happen. I think it's obvious from the context I meant Brawl in the second sentence.
Green Mamba
Member
Yeah, I don't think they need to even things out too much. Based on moveset count alone Zelda and Pokemon eclipse the mainline Mario series, but I don't think that's really being fair to Mario--while Yoshi does have his own franchise and is listed separate because of it, he is easily just as much a Mario character and still regularly appears in the mainline Mario games. And while Donkey, Diddy, and Wario fall further outside the franchise than Yoshi does, they are still part of the greater Mario universe and feel just as at home on the Mario Kart stage (listed as part of the Mario universe) as Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser.
And then you have to take into account that characters are not the only way to represent a franchise. Consider stage numbers: Mario has by far outdone every other franchise in every single Smash Bros. in this regard, and I predict we will see a similar output in the next Smash.
Think to how many stages were symbolized by the Mario mushroom in Brawl:
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Mario Bros.
Rainbow Cruise (past stage)
Six right there counting the past stage, but then remember that Mushroomy Kingdom is actually two stages in one, and then think to some other stages not listed as part of the Mario universe. The Melee Yoshi's Island, for instance, is based on Super Mario World, and I would absolutely consider it more of a Mario stage than a Yoshi stage (I always felt it was listed as a Yoshi stage in Melee to even out Yoshi's stage representation). 75m as well suits Mario just as much as Donkey Kong if not more.
So, thinking like that:
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Mushroomy Kingdom (Overworld)
Mushroomy Kingdom (Underground)
Mario Circuit
Mario Bros.
Rainbow Cruise (past stage)
75m (technically Donkey Kong)
Yoshi's Island (past stage) (technically Yoshi)
...I can't really remember where I was going with this, but man, Mario has a lot of stages in Brawl.
Oh wait, now I remember--in comparison, the next highest representation in stages are Donkey Kong, Zelda, Metroid, and Pokemon, with three each counting their respective past stages as well as Donkey Kong's stage that overlaps with Mario.
And then think to item representation, and... seriously, a good portion of the items are Mario. Point being, I don't think Mario has any worries about needing extra representation to stay even with Pokemon.
Pokemon overtaking Zelda in representation is no big deal at all, considering it has always been the bigger franchise.
And then you have to take into account that characters are not the only way to represent a franchise. Consider stage numbers: Mario has by far outdone every other franchise in every single Smash Bros. in this regard, and I predict we will see a similar output in the next Smash.
Think to how many stages were symbolized by the Mario mushroom in Brawl:
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Mario Bros.
Rainbow Cruise (past stage)
Six right there counting the past stage, but then remember that Mushroomy Kingdom is actually two stages in one, and then think to some other stages not listed as part of the Mario universe. The Melee Yoshi's Island, for instance, is based on Super Mario World, and I would absolutely consider it more of a Mario stage than a Yoshi stage (I always felt it was listed as a Yoshi stage in Melee to even out Yoshi's stage representation). 75m as well suits Mario just as much as Donkey Kong if not more.
So, thinking like that:
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Mushroomy Kingdom (Overworld)
Mushroomy Kingdom (Underground)
Mario Circuit
Mario Bros.
Rainbow Cruise (past stage)
75m (technically Donkey Kong)
Yoshi's Island (past stage) (technically Yoshi)
...I can't really remember where I was going with this, but man, Mario has a lot of stages in Brawl.
Oh wait, now I remember--in comparison, the next highest representation in stages are Donkey Kong, Zelda, Metroid, and Pokemon, with three each counting their respective past stages as well as Donkey Kong's stage that overlaps with Mario.
And then think to item representation, and... seriously, a good portion of the items are Mario. Point being, I don't think Mario has any worries about needing extra representation to stay even with Pokemon.
Pokemon overtaking Zelda in representation is no big deal at all, considering it has always been the bigger franchise.
Nice write up Green Mamba. I also consider Yoshi, Wario and to a lesser extend DK a part of the extended Mario universe. And true Mario has a lot of stages/items and that's more than enough total representation for them but I still find that Mario may need to have one newcomer if Pokemon continue to add about 2 characters every iteration. Yeah, Zelda is becoming less popular and the Trio is all they really need. Although I'd like to see Impa.
Only time will tell i guess. I can see the Super Mario Galaxy games getting a stage, item, or character so it might help "balance" everything if that is even what Sakurai is trying to accomplish.
Only time will tell i guess. I can see the Super Mario Galaxy games getting a stage, item, or character so it might help "balance" everything if that is even what Sakurai is trying to accomplish.
Red Arremer
Member
Frankly, other than the heavily requested Melee characters, Ridley, and possible 3rd party additions that fans might love, I think there's nothing in terms of "balance" that Sakurai'll try to accomplish.
At this point of the roster, the main focus'll be on gameplay. That's why we saw characters like Ice Climbers, Zero Suit Samus or Sheik, that aren't particularly popular or important characters, but add new gameplay mechanics, making it richer this way.
The best would of course be a character like Olimar, who not only represents a powerful franchise, but also has a whole unique style of gameplay.
I think that SSB4 likely will have many more characters like these, just because now Sakurai doesn't have to focus so much on fan favorites and rather on characters that add more interesting flavor to the game.
At this point of the roster, the main focus'll be on gameplay. That's why we saw characters like Ice Climbers, Zero Suit Samus or Sheik, that aren't particularly popular or important characters, but add new gameplay mechanics, making it richer this way.
The best would of course be a character like Olimar, who not only represents a powerful franchise, but also has a whole unique style of gameplay.
I think that SSB4 likely will have many more characters like these, just because now Sakurai doesn't have to focus so much on fan favorites and rather on characters that add more interesting flavor to the game.
Nocturnowl
Member
Summons Ravi Drums for Final Smash.
Black-Wind
Member
I would remind you that Pichu is still massively popular, used to promote Pokemon Merch and Pokemon Gaming events/ in game events (give aways/ GS remakes) and is even the main character's Partner in the latest Rangers game ... and no one expects Pichu to come back into the smash fold. Smash is made for Nintendo fans, not Smash fans. And Pokemon is a series where cute is often times popular. If that results in a Jiggs or Pichu or Pikachu level cute Pokemon getting in then so be it.
The way I see "fotm" it's kinda like president's. One's the face of everything for a few years and then you move on to a new person. You wouldn't have Bill or Bush do the presidential inauguration for Obama (to use and extreme example) :/
And your feelings about how Pichu plays is moot, it's Sakurai's call on characters being either MK/ Snake broken or weaklings. If he's to "useless" for you then that's something that Sakurai did. Many people feel that Mewtwo's far to weak/ strange in Melee but they simply want that to be fixed.
And like I said, I'm perfectly fine with PT getting new Pokemon. "It's 3 unique move-set you would have to replace!" ... ok, and? All 3 are gimped to hell because of the gimmick so I'm guessing that factors into things.
SenorArdilla
Member
Sakurai might as well put in a way to play each of the three seperately without the switching. Three characters in one slot and then the choice to go solo or bring all three.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Hah, a character slot composed of all of the Pikachu clones barring Marill.
Also despite having their own "logos" I kinda think DK, Wario and Yoshi are Mario cast indirectly.
Also despite having their own "logos" I kinda think DK, Wario and Yoshi are Mario cast indirectly.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I tend to think Mario is a spin-off of Donkey Kong. I mean, who's name is it on the arcade cabinet? And who am I playing as in the sequel? Is Mario even in Donkey Kong 3?
Joking, but I feel at this point Nintendo sees DK very much as its own thing* and just keeps having DKC and whatever other DK game shout-outs in Mario games since it's another big series with its own fans it can attract without it being too out of place, as opposed to having something like Kirby or Zelda characters in Mario Party or Kart. The Rare buyout and the growing lack of big DK games is probably what spurred Nintendo on to keep putting tons of DK stuff in those spin-off games to keep the licence somewhat relevant beforeJungle Beat Returns came along.
*Probably why the Mario vs Donkey Kong names had that name; gives the sense of more of a crossover whereas just calling it 'Donkey Kong' would confuse gamers whereas it wouldn't of before DKC.
Joking, but I feel at this point Nintendo sees DK very much as its own thing* and just keeps having DKC and whatever other DK game shout-outs in Mario games since it's another big series with its own fans it can attract without it being too out of place, as opposed to having something like Kirby or Zelda characters in Mario Party or Kart. The Rare buyout and the growing lack of big DK games is probably what spurred Nintendo on to keep putting tons of DK stuff in those spin-off games to keep the licence somewhat relevant before
*Probably why the Mario vs Donkey Kong names had that name; gives the sense of more of a crossover whereas just calling it 'Donkey Kong' would confuse gamers whereas it wouldn't of before DKC.
Separate Squirtle / Ivysaur / Charizard into three characters and give Pokemon Trainer Eevee that can transform into any of the 8 Eeveelutions
What proof?
SenorArdilla
Member
There's not enough proof to support "Flavor of the Month". You can't show a trend exist with only three points of data. There have only been three games. And of all of them, we've only seen one thing. Veteran that were in the original SBB returned in Melee and then returned again in Brawl. There's no solid confirmation on who's safe and who's not.
Hey guys! I love Smash and decided to make my own roster. What do you think? Maybe Zoroark should be taken out in place of a Gen 6 Pokemon, but besides that, I think it seems pretty plausible.
The lack of Sonic is pretty odd.
Props for Mewtwo, Mega Man and Waluigi though!
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Well Sonic was the cause of Mewtwo grief.
Sonic has green eyes and ruined Smash Bros with his green eyesness
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
So, I wanted the "New" Pokemon Reps to be Mewtwo and Genesect, and now that we're getting them fighting in a film, I want to see it anymore...but mainly for Genesect.
Green Mamba
Member
Hey guys! I love Smash and decided to make my own roster. What do you think? Maybe Zoroark should be taken out in place of a Gen 6 Pokemon, but besides that, I think it seems pretty plausible.
People here will likely give you endless shit for Waluigi, but I won't.
The inclusion of Ray brings happiness to my heart.
I think I would drop Ghirahim and Medusa for some other non-repped franchises. Ghirahim feels out of place to me with the series regulars and I'm not sure Kid Icarus is a big enough franchise for three characters.
But Sonic's lack of inclusion does seem odd.
Concerning Ray, I've had this idea for him for a while that I haven't posted--he could be the character customization that so many people have suggested. See, my idea is that his four special moves would correspond to the four changeable items from Custom Robo; Neutral for Gun, Side for Missile, Up for Feet, Down for Pod. And for Ray you could like, I don't know, click on the various parts of his portrait to cycle through three or so choices for each.
Like tapping on his gun would cycle through three different neutral specials for him--Gatling (rapid fire), Dragon (slow homing), and Rayfall (pause then fast homing) as an example. Or the three boots could be like three different possible recovery moves.
I dunno, something I thought would be a neat way to represent the franchise and include something truly unique to Smash Bros.
Oh, right, I forgot to include him. Oh well, I can't stand him anyway.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
I'd like to know your reasoning for dropping Sonic. I personally don't care about the Sonic games or how he plays in Brawl or anything, but he's one of the most famous video game characters of all time (certainly more well-known than Snake, Mega Man, and most of the characters in Smash Bros.) and Sega still cooperates with Nintendo on things like the Olympics games.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Zoroark's pretty outdated...I never felt she really lived up as the "next Lucario" either, despite kind of being pushed as that. I think her chances dropped dramatically now that we found out Gen V is ending soon.
I just simply overlooked him. I agree that he's a shoe-in at this point with the cooperation between Nintendo and Sega on the "Olympic" titles; I personally don't care for the character though.
I hope you're right because I agree with you. Maybe having Namco helping will allow Sakurai more freedom to focus of the creative side of things. I mean he HAS to since he's working on two games simultaneously. Much of the load has to be taken off of him.
Yeah, I see what you're saying. Without DK appearing in Mario spinoffs to keep him relevant between his own games, Nintendo could lose him as a lesser icon. That lack of consistency is why I put FE slightly above the DK series in terms of importance to Nintendo right now.
Hey guys! I love Smash and decided to make my own roster. What do you think? Maybe Zoroark should be taken out in place of a Gen 6 Pokemon, but besides that, I think it seems pretty plausible.
Hmm I see Waluigi -1...BUT I see Ray MK so like +5.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Personally I would like a Battle Clash stage. You could fight on top of a mecha while it gets blown to smitheroons.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Such a silly mentality for Sakurai to have going into the 4th Smash Bros on Nintendo's next gen console. I know this won't happen because Nintendo, but character DLC would be phenomenal.
Hey guys! I love Smash and decided to make my own roster. What do you think? Maybe Zoroark should be taken out in place of a Gen 6 Pokemon, but besides that, I think it seems pretty plausible.
Slime!
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Wouldn't it be magical if Smash was teased in NoA Direct?
HAHAHAHAHA oh you stop with the jokes.
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