Thiagosc777
Member
Not sure if I understand what you mean. The ads were creating a parallel between the actions of the in-game characters to the actions of Antifa in the US. Thus suggesting an equivalency.
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Niche Gamer: "Gamedevs, stop apologizing to people who don't buy or play video games."
- Thread starter DryvBy
- Start date
Not sure if I understand what you mean. The ads were creating a parallel between the actions of the in-game characters to the actions of Antifa in the US. Thus suggesting an equivalency.
A.Romero
Member
I just saw Battlefront II on the NPD thread as one of the top ten most sold games in the last 12 months. It was a shock because there was a lot of controversy around the game. If all that doesn't affect or *really* affect sales, I really doubt a bunch of people being offended by whatever will.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
Exactly why I tell folks not to pay so much stock in to what folks say on threads exaggerated junk. They said the same crap about Battlefront 1 and it went on to move record units outselling every Star Wars game before it in mere weeks. I think the sales of Battlefront V and even Call Of Duty have more to do with Fortnite, PubG taking away sales on the casual front and Red Dead 2 coming out so soon around those 2 games.
Like many SJW's, I don't think the folks creating their fake "controversies" even play much games to actually really even do much if any damage, they are simply a small minority pretending this is REALLY an issue. Wouldn't be the first time a SJW got mad at a game having a demographic in it that triggered them and clearly went on to show MUST of us don't really care or judge games based on such dumb things.
https://www.windowscentral.com/far-cry-5-breaks-franchises-sales-records
H
hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
This suggests a failure to understand how these outrages are generated. Hint: Not organically.
So let's take a typical outrage situation. Someone of an SJW bent may spot a tweet that they don't like. They may very well be a gamer, I would certainly disagree with any assertion that no SJWs play games, otherwise the RockPaperShotgun forums would be entirely empty. However, what then happens is that they post on some SJW reddit or forum, and of course these are echo chambers, so they stoke each other up, furious with righteous anger about the evil content that must be attacked. They'll post their witty retorts and screenshot witty things they posted in reply, signalling their virtue all the time. Now on twitter you'll find key accounts retweeting the original post with some indignation and suggesting that people have a pop at them. So of course all their followers do, knowing nothing of the context. The flame wars begin. How many of those have an interest in games? Actually very few, because the sources through which they arrive at the conversation are not games-related.
The irony is that I am in some ways fairly closely aligned with some of the ideals of the social justice warrior. I think female armour is a bit daft and pandering to teenage boys and their hormones, I agree that we probably could do with having a few more key characters in games who aren't straight white males. The issue here is how they go about it. I've seen faux-outrage used as a bullying tool elsewhere (I had a group of trolls follow me around the internet for 10 years doing that shit because I banned them from a forum in the early-00s), and these guys have basically weaponized it. The problem is that every time they get their apology (which isn't enough, it never is), every time someone gets fired because of it, their bullying tactics win, and they become emboldened. People start getting scared to say anything that might offend them and guess what, they've won. That idea absolutely horrifies me.
WAR recon zero
Banned
but it sold much much less than BF1
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Fuz
Banned
What's wrong with punching nazis?
bilderberg
Member
You are just going to ignore real life parallels of normal every day people being assaulted because of "punch nazi" rhetoric?
Redshirt
Banned
You'll have to clarify. Not really sure what you're asking.
bilderberg
Member
Redshirt
Banned
I'm OK with people who identify as Nazis being punched. Yes, absolutely.
ruvikx
Banned
It doesn't work like that. It's the Antifa/SJW's who're judge, jury & executioner, i.e. they identify the "Nazis" themselves & then say they need to be punched. We've seen all too often how 'liberal' they are vis-à-vis applying the Nazi label to whomever they want.
bilderberg
Member
This is the equivalent of attacking anyone who votes left as "identifying" as communists. War with communism is a greater american past time than our fight with Nazi's. We should just freely assault leftists too? How are you deciding who is a nazi and who isn't?
Welcome to the world of fascism population you.
I would also react the same way when someone argues to punch Antifa.
Violence is not an answer and only leads to more violence. Spreading fear to state opinions no matter if you agree with them or not. is textbook fascism.
bilderberg
Member
are you deliberately just dense?
Redshirt
Banned
Heh. Probably. Bye.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Arguing in bad faith? Because we disagree? My whole point from the jump was that this Niche gamer's article is the inverse of Austin's post just with less hostility. This is what I said at first on the first page.
In most cases anytime someone offers up the fact that they don't like something, there are others that will call that opinion "OUTRAGE". I have always thought that was unfair. Just because someone says they don't like something that someone says, doesn't mean they are outraged. So my original point was that, if those are the rules that we are playing by then the Niche Gamer is now outraged at the people that are outraged. That is a simple point that even you should be able to understand. It's not complicated at all.
My original point is above. It's not a hard concept. You can disagree if you like, but to say someone hasn't made one coherent position ever means that you are trying to shut them up by making them feel embarrased. I've seen that game played before and it doesn't work on a guy like me.
And the Austin Walker point is also simple. He does make an impact amongst his followers and gamers who closely follow this stuff. There are people that will buy a game or not based on what he says. He even helped write for a game that released this year I believe (it sold bad and it wasn't reviewed well). Saying Austin doesn't matter at all in gaming is like saying Greg Miller or Jeff Gerstmann don't matter within the gaming community. Give credit where it's due.
Redshirt
you are 100% right. Don't let some of these people try to run you off. Those Trump people punched have nothing to do with being Nazis. They are people that just got punched by some crazy people. And some of them might have gotten punched because it was just a normal fight. But you are right that it has NOTHING to do with Wolfenstein II ad campaign. They were punching actual Nazis. Not people that others "claimed" were Nazis.That transitional property doesn't exist here. We not doing that!
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Thiagosc777
Member
The whole "punch Nazi" is direct reference to Antifa actions. The problem is not who the fictional characters are punching, but the creation of a parallel between the actions of the in-game characters to real life events, equating the actions of Antifa to the Wolfenstein protagonist.
The ad campaign from Wolfenstein II ad campaign is an Antifa endorsement video. Imagine if someone made an ad campaign of planes hitting buildings and saying "Kill infidels". People would be justifiably upset. The excuse "But the infidels in the game..." wouldn't work.
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A.Romero
Member
Sure but hardly a flop.
DryvBy
Member
Just stop. The Punch a Nazi is a *opens up book of stupid Twitter terms* "dog whistle" for those who think everyone that likes Trump is a racist alt-right Nazi. If you don't believe me, go play Wolfenstein II. 99.9% of the time you're shootng Nazis, not punching them.
DryvBy
Member
I'm okay with people who identify as Communist being punched. Yes, absolutely.
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No one likes Nazis. In fact, there's under a 1% of people who even identify as a neo-Nazi in the United States. According to Wikipedia:
So why is the news, Twitter and other people butt-hurt about a SMALL minority of idiots in this country? You're more likely to run into self-proclaimed Communists than Nazi, both of which lead to death and destruction. But you'd think that half the country is some new age Nazi trash since Antifa terrorist took to the street and the news had their backs.
How many actual Nazis have you personally ran into? I'm going to estimate 0 as the chances are higher for you to win the lottery. And are you against the freedom of speech that yes, even worthless Nazis and Communists have in the United States as protected by the first Amendment. You have no legal right to punch someone unless you want to be sued. How foolish is it to punch a Nazi then get sued and have to then pay said Nazi for damages? I mean, you're funding Nazis at this point which means someone else can punch you because you're helping their causes. Cycle of idiocy.
And this isn't even going into the fact that these crazed loons punching people think even some liberals are Nazis...
If you're okay with punching people for having difference of opinions, no matter how horrible, then you are better off calling yourself a terrorist. A civilized person would allow someone to say whatever crap they have to say and counter-protest. But I guess pacifism is dead in today's "progressive" cultuire.
The Mad Draklor
Member
Dude... you literally did not address a single one of my counterarguments and you are doing it yet again with this response. I checked the thread a few times to make sure if I accidentally missed something and indeed, you haven't made an actual response. I already gave my input whereas not once have you actually tried to offer your refutations to my points. The conversation cannot continue unless you actually participate.
And as I said, you're arguing in bad faith in the worst case scenario. You should have already been alerted of my response and read through it. I expected to respond back showing what parts of my arguments you disagree with. Instead, you continued on this thread as if my response didn't exist. Perhaps you were just scatterbrained at that moment, but it is hard for me to give you the benefit of the doubt considering (1) this thread isn't that long and (2) by the time I have posted this response, you already have more than enough time to parse through my actual points.
So no, I'm not saying you're arguing in bad faith (in the worse case scenario) because we disagree. It's because you continuously rely on ad nauseam tactics and not bother directly addressing my disagreements with your assessments. You still have the chance to fix your mistake. Don't take the ad nauseam route.
Yes, I have already seen this argument from you in which others have already refuted, but hey I'll bite. Hopefully, from this point, you avoid the ad nauseam route.
This is where I have to bring up the question I asked you earlier in which you actually never answered directly. The reason why people who were outraged at CDPR's tweet were considered to be actually outraged was because it got to a point where the employee actually got doxxed. And you, yourself, expressed that doxxing is wrong, so I would assume your answer would be that the side who resorted to doxxing is worse. Remember, the person who did that has not been banned whereas other members were banned for mere disagreement, implying the Era mod team's complicit-ness.
As a result, the equivalence of the side who staunchly opposed CDPR's tweet and the side who opposed the outrage against CDPR's tweet is non-existent. And because the equivalence does not exist, therefore Niche Gamer's disagreement should not be considered to be "outrage" because the nature of the disagreement is not the same.
In addition, the joke CDPR made is a rather common joke. "Did you just assume their gender?!" satirizes the extremist portions of the progressive LGBT community. The Sonic the Hedgehog twitter account has also made similar jokes such as the "I identify as an attack helicopter" to poke fun of the 72 genders list. Similar to the response to CDPR's tweet, a handful of people were offended by the joke and demanded for it to be removed. Guess what happened? The account kept the tweet up and SEGA is doing just fine. This is not the case with CDPR, however. Eventually, the tweet got removed. Why would that happen if the tweet is very similar to Sony the Hedgehog's and the latter's tweet is still up? Because the folks who were offended by the joke responded rather aggressively and as I already mentioned earlier, it got the point where an employee got doxxed. I see no such belligerence from Niche Gamer's article.
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NickFire
Member
I mean, do we really believe that the average person who feels scared, threatened and bullied by twitter jokes that were never targeted directly at them, are able to function enough in normal society to earn a living that provides for disposable income? It doesn't seem all that likely to me. But maybe I'm wrong.
MightySquirrel
Banned
Good point. All sjw's do is ruin the quality of games, movies, series ..everything really. If it was for them we wouldn't have ever seen some of the best games come to fruition at all. [including GTA5 as mentioned, series like Mortal combat, Unreal tournament etc would have never seen the light of day] Come to think of it you can ad The Witcher 3 to the list.
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Kadayi
Banned
Truth hurts I'm afraid. See it as a challenge to make better arguments going forward.
Did you miss the big chart from the ESA (Entertainment Software Association) posted a while back in the thread about the factual data on how little actual game reviews matter when it comes to consumer opinions on whether to buy a title or not? Here, it is again: -
3% impact. on purchasing decisions. That's the entirety of all of game journalism globally. Yet you're trying to convince me that Austin Walker is a big fish? Waypoint isn't even a blip on the radar of most gamers who read review sites. It's a side salad for bored Vice readers.
It's a report by the ESA. Linkie below: -
tp://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ESA-Essential-Facts-2015.pdf
DryvBy
Member
Truth hurts I'm afraid. See it as a challenge to make better arguments going forward.
Did you miss the big chart from the ESA (Entertainment Software Association) posted a while back in the thread about the factual data on how little actual game reviews matter when it comes to consumer opinions on whether to buy a title or not? Here, it is again: -
3% impact. on purchasing decisions. That's the entirety of all of game journalism globally. Yet you're trying to convince me that Austin Walker is a big fish? Waypoint isn't even a blip on the radar of most gamers who read review sites. It's a side salad for bored Vice readers.
It's a report by the ESA. Linkie below: -
tp://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ESA-Essential-Facts-2015.pdf
And this was 3 years ago. It has to be at least slightly under 3% now.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
1. I saw people saying those that didn't like the tweet and didn't find it funny calling the likes of Austin Walker "outraged". That was before the doxxing.
2. Just because some crazy people doxxed the CDPR employee, doesn't mean that anybody that disliked the tweet is on their "side" per say. 2 people can agree that the tweet was in bad taste and not like it. But if the 2nd person decides to dox the tweeter, it doesn't mean the first person would agree to take it to that level. Once someone doxxes another person, they've taken it to a level that most would disagree with. I wouldn't consider these two people in this example to be on the same side.
3. I don't care about ResetERA. They are a forum that started for reasons that were totally understandable, but now are outside the mainstream in how you run a forum of any nature.
4. Like I said in point 2, there are more than two sides at this point. This is very clear.
5. Niche Gamer's disagreement (with the likes of Austin Walker) to me, in my opinion, reaches the same level of "outrage" (it's in quotes because I rarely actually think people are outraged) as most of the people that disliked the tweet in the first place. I personally don't have a huge problem with what Austin or Niche Gamer said. I disagree with both to varying degrees, but they both have a point and I'm glad they made it.
6. Just because something is a common joke, doesn't mean everybody will like the joke in the first place. And in some instances, the joke that's common can be harmful. And there's many people that don't find that type of joke about what SEGA did to be cool either.
7. People and companies need to understand that in most cases not apologizing will not hurt the bottom line of profit. Just because people on Twitter hate a post and want an apology doesn't mean that giving one will make all of them chill out.
8. People and companies also need to understand that apologizing will not hurt the bottom line of profit either. People that get mad at companies like CDPR for apologizing will still buy the game. Because at the end of the day they were here for the gameplay anyway and not the side story.
There's your direct response.
Truth hurts I'm afraid. See it as a challenge to make better arguments going forward.
Did you miss the big chart from the ESA (Entertainment Software Association) posted a while back in the thread about the factual data on how little actual game reviews matter when it comes to consumer opinions on whether to buy a title or not? Here, it is again: -
3% impact. on purchasing decisions. That's the entirety of all of game journalism globally. Yet you're trying to convince me that Austin Walker is a big fish? Waypoint isn't even a blip on the radar of most gamers who read review sites. It's a side salad for bored Vice readers.
It's a report by the ESA. Linkie below: -
tp://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ESA-Essential-Facts-2015.pdf
*Disagreeing with an argument doesn't mean it's a bad argument. Don't be like reset.*
But to your 3% point. Look at the list and ask yourself how much does 3% must matter to video game corporations the size of EA and Activision. Just think about it. No....no....no....don't respond too quickly. I want you to really think about that 3%. Now, look at the chart. Look at the chart closely. Don't look at the 3% for Product reviews anymore. I want you to look further down the chart. Yeah, now you see it. You notice that 1% for advertising right? Yep, you do. 3% is triple the importance of 1% right. That's what math says. Now ask yourself why companies are out here spending $10 million on advertising if it only amounts to 1% of influence. Either this is a bad study or that 1% matters more than the chart represents.
Let's look at the chart again. You see that 2% for reputation of software publisher/developer? That's also lower than the 3% of product reviews, yet many of us here and on Twitter think that a developer's or publisher's rep being hurt will hurt sales going foward (i.e. EA with the Star Wars debacle).
My personal gripe with this study is that it states that Educational value is at 5%. Now, what game(s) do you really feel like you really needed the "Educational Value" to be high, yet you didn't care about the Review of the game or how much it was advertised? So with that in mind either this study is speaking about the total gaming sector (from Halo to games on the iTunes store for babies) and is too far-reaching for us to use on NeoGAF. If you really believe that advertising and Product Reviews of a game mean 4% to someone's influence then you haven't been paying attention to the broader conversation in the gaming space over the last 20 years.
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Redshirt
Banned
That transitional property doesn't exist here. We not doing that!
Haha. Not going anywhere. It's just a gorgeous Friday!
CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
Wolfenstein marketing was talking about actual Nazis not simply anyone who disagrees with SJWs. I thought it was hilarious, didn't bother me at all.
I bought the game for $10 digitally not long after it was released and thought it was fun, but I found the fact they made all white people KKK members disturbing and offensive.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yes, actual Nazis, but they did co-op the Antifa slogan the Berkley kids have been throwing around the past 4+ years while punching a lot of innocence. You would be intentionally ignoring the crux otherwise.
The Mad Draklor
Member
I don't see how this is a direct response to any of my points of this comment of mine. Also, doesn't this actually refute your claim? If there is a group of people who like the tweet and found it funny, and another group of people who disliked the tweet and not found it funny both calling Austin Walker "outraged", then that implies a consensus.
On the other hand, I do not see a similar type of consensus deeming Niche Gamer's article criticizing the outrage against CDPR's joke also as 'outrage'. For your assertion that both sides are 'outraged' to be true, then you would need to provide me a similar type of consensus that I just mentioned.
Lastly, the fact that this happened before the doxxing does not change the fact that the doxxing happened.
However, I do not see people on the side of "CDPR's joke is extremely offensive" denouncing the doxxing. As I already pointed out, the mod team was also complicit and I would not be surprised if there are a bunch of ERA regulars who sided with the doxxer and mod team either. That's hardly 2 people, especially considering the forum's large userbase.
ResetERA is still the largest video game forum with a lot of developers and insiders using it as a form of communication. Your personal feelings about it do not change that and thus, they are irrelevant.
This is not an argument. You have to show me this. In addition, you mentioned nothing about more than 2 sides after I asked you to present your disagreements with the Niche Gamer article, so I find this rather irrelevant considering that you claim that this is a direct response to my counterpoints that you didn't bother refuting until now.
You need to prove to me that 'most' people disliked the tweet, as in you looked through all of the responses in and outside of Twitter, and found over 50% of the responses were not in favor of the joke. In addition, I already provided the Sonic the Hedgehog "I identify as an attack helicopter" joke as an example of how not apologizing to a vocal bunch of easily offended people did not lead to severe consequences for the person running the account nor SEGA.
This is also not an argument and in fact, a strawman fallacy. Not once did I argue that common jokes means everybody will like the joke. In addition, I already asked you these questions in a previous comment, in which you have not answered and still have not answered:
Saying that a joke that's common can be harmful is completely vague, as people's perception of what's harmful widely varies. This is why I asked those questions above because a joke that calls for violence, for example, is definitive and does not leave room for open interpretation.
This is the only part I agree with. However, this also somewhat conflicts with Point 6. If a joke is 'harmful' (as in it calls of discrimination, encourages violence, or something of similar severity), then that's very serious. It would be a PR disaster and will affect a company's bottom line.
You do know that you could've just combined Points 7 and 8 together... Also, this is the total opposite of what you said earlier:
In fact, you didn't really need to bother repeating what I already said similarly:
Your opinions are already changing without you knowing that, apparently.
It's actually not a direct response at all after I compared your points to the ones I made in the comment I already hyperlinked a few times. I do appreciate the effort and at least you're not being disingenuous after I called you out on ignoring my counterpoints. That said, though, you really need to avoid making complete blunders like Point 8.
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Kadayi
Banned
It's based on a survey. They polled gamers about what influenced their buying decisions. It's not a case that all advertising equates to 1% of all game purchases, it's about how far alone a category influences a buying decision. Games aren't cheap. Advertising might pique someone's interest, but it's rarely the case that people will pay $60 based solely on an advert.
And your point is what exactly? I mean jeez, did IO's Kane & Lynch bomb with all the uproar over Gerstmann's GameSpot firing back in the day? Did EA go to the wall after they were declared the worst company in the world? All you're saying simply confirms how pointless it is to view Twitter as some reflection of a broader social reality.
or?
It's not a case of what I believe, it's a case of what the data from the survey shows. It seems to me that it's you whose unable and unwilling to face up to reality here.
CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
To me it felt like they were making fun of Antifa & the #Resistance and their stupid slogan by using it on actual Nazis
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I guess I can see that perspective as well, however some of the content in the game itself would lead one to think otherwise. I guess we will never know.
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Multiple people have explained this I think you just taking bait at this point.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
My opinion hasn't changed on this. I know what I'm thinking and how I felt today and today. And my point #8 is valid. I didn't change my thought on that. You don't understand the point and that's fine. You have a subset of people that care about this side story stuff, whereas the far majority are just here for the games. Everything isn't black/white or cold/hot. Most things are grey and warm. Nuance you have to be.
I get it, but I'm not the one trying to create the narrative that people that review games don't have much influence. That was you, my man. I understand their influence (as a collective) and respect it. It's weird that this much conversation has been had over a guy like Austin Walker saying something about a tweet he didn't like, just to turn around and be told people don't care about his opinion.
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The Mad Draklor
Member
Spouting mere virtue signaling talking points do not substitute for evidence. Point #8 was incongruent with a portion of a comment you made previously, as I emphasized already. It is up to you to show that the portions of your comments that I provided were congruent. I'm not the one who changed the criterion, so the moving the goal posts image doesn't apply to me.
My opinion hasn't changed on this. I know what I'm thinking and how I felt today and today. And my point #8 is valid. I didn't change my thought on that. You don't understand the point and that's fine. You have a subset of people that care about this side story stuff, whereas the far majority are just here for the games. Everything isn't black/white or cold/hot. Most things are grey and warm. Nuance you have to be.
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CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
I look at it as the " all white people are KKK" = Machine Games
Punch a Nazi = Bethesda marketing, which also gave us "demons are easily offended".
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
DryvBy
Member
Ya know, this is a good point too.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The people that make the game about killing Hitler and Nazis. Did people forget that there are actual Nazis in Wolfenstein II?
Marshmallow
Banned
But how do you know these people don't play videogames?
(Also funny how gators love Niche game and OAG which are politically charged than Kotaku)
(Also funny how gators love Niche game and OAG which are politically charged than Kotaku)
Marshmallow
Banned
lol, there literally was no outrage. If anything it shows how people are gullible and will believe anything when it fits their narrative. It was a pretty good marketing move though.
The side that has lolcow.
I'm pretty sure you are familiar with it.
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