Nintendo Switch 2 doesn't actually run original Switch games natively uses a hardware/software hybrid proprietary technology

The Switch 1 is smaller and has 100% guaranteed native compatibility, don't throw it away or give it to a poor child.
 
The only reason I wanted a Switch 2 at launch was native switch games with faster official hardware

No wonder they went so hard on emulators recently....lmao I'm out. fucking Nintendo

I'll pick up a Switch 2 in like 2029 no rush at all now
 
ShirAhava said:
The only reason I wanted a Switch 2 at launch was native switch games with faster official hardware

No wonder they went so hard on emulators recently....lmao I'm out. fucking Nintendo

I'll pick up a Switch 2 in like 2029 no rush at all now
Click to expand...

so you are not buying it because they did exactly what you wanted? what?
 
So basically an abstraction layer running natively on the new hardware then. It still has ARM derivative cores, so It's basically the same hardware with a new GPU.
 
Since both CPUs are ARM based, they probably run the same instructions.
But the GPU on the original Switch is based on Maxwell arch, so it's probably necessary to recompile shaders in real time.
So they probably got some dedicated instructions in the SoC to do this faster.
 
winjer said:
Click to expand...


that thumbnail is extremely misleading.

even in the video he basically contradicts the thumbnail... but he also seems to just completely conflate GPU trasnaltion layers with software emulation.

Nintendo's devs very obviously are describing a WINE like translation layer for the GPU instructions, and that's not even remotely the same as emulation.
hell WINE is literally an acronym for Wine Is Not an Emulator, specifically because the devs wanted to make it clear that translating GPU code on the fly from one API to another is not emulation
 
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It's basically a compatibility layer that translates Switch instructions to work on Switch 2. Definitely some overhead there compared to full native BC, but not as much as emulating the entire system.
 
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winjer said:
Click to expand...

He stated all possibilities in past videos, so he was pretty sure to be right lol.

Anyway the possibilities were :
- 100% BC with simply an upgraded hardware
- BC through emulation
- no BC

Doesn't take a genius to know this.
 
Dacvak said:
The way they loosely explained it in the developer interview was that they wrote a compatibility layer to run X1 code on the T239. This is similar to the type of technology the Steam Deck uses to run Windows games on Linux (Proton), only it's presumably a bit more straightforward for the Switch 2 since the X1 (Maxwell) and T239 (Ampere) at least have relatively similar architectures. At least moreso than, say, x86 -> ARM.

However, the Switch 1 uses a lot of custom drivers and hardcoded workarounds to squeeze more juice out of the X1 chipset, and probably uses a modified OpenGL ES/Vulkan stack. The T239 is probably mostly a modern Vulkan pipeline. This means that games that really take FULL use of the X1 (like the "miracle ports" and 1st-party games) need a custom compatibility layer in order to perform real-time instruction translations to utilize the drivers/shaders/memory/scheduling/etc. of the T239.

This is also why there are a handful of currently-incompatible Switch 1 games on the Switch 2, unsurprisingly some of the "miracle" ports like DOOM Eternal. Those games probably use a LOT of hardcoded, low-level workarounds to squeeze out as much performance as possible on the X1. I'm pretty confident they'll eventually work on the Switch 2, it'll just be up to Nintendo or id to write custom translators for those games.
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or they could just patch the routines to run natively on the Switch 2. Standardising the charging for upgrade packs at least incentivises them... unless they want the switch 1 version running on S2 without the upgrade...
 
cireza said:
He stated all possibilities in past videos, so he was pretty sure to be right lol.

Anyway the possibilities were :
- 100% BC with simply an upgraded hardware
- BC through emulation
- no BC

Doesn't take a genius to know this.
Click to expand...

None of those options are what's actually going on.
 
damn, looks like only ~20% of 3rd party games are so far known to be playable without issues.
PCdaUfm.png
 
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RoadHazard said:
No, this is not emulation.
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I don't see any difference. My understanding is that they are converting instructions and assets on the fly to imitate the Switch 1 behavior, which means they are imitating the hardware as close as possible (or at least close enough to not break the games) = emulation.

It is also stated in the interview. You have both translation and emulation, obviously.

Dohta: If we tried to use technology like software emulators (22), we'd have to run Switch 2 at full capacity, but that would mean the battery wouldn't last so long, so we did something that's somewhere in between a software emulator and hardware compatibility.
Click to expand...
 
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Nintendo Lawyers are probably now confused, if they should sue the devs or Nintendo, because they are using some kind of an emulator on the switch 2
 
I swear this console warring shit is reaching critical mass
I'm desolate I won't be able to play Toy-Con 4: VR Kit in my Switch 2 (whatever the fuck that is)
 
cireza said:
Second option implying emulation is what is going on.
Click to expand...

it's not actual emulation.
the way they describe it is that the system recompiles shaders to work with the new GPU.
meanwhile the CPU code probably runs without much of any intervention needed.

in the end, what we have here is games that were compiled for Nvidia Maxwell needing to run on Nvidia Ampere.
like a PC game designed originally for the GTX900 series running on a PC with an RTX3000 series.
you don't need to emulate that game if you want to play it on the RTX3000 GPU, but the RTX3000 GPU needs to understand the shader code.

PC games of course compile shaders on the fly or during loading screens so that the specific GPU you use understands how to draw the image.

on Windows this just usually works out of the box as they use an API like Direct X that is designed with forwards and backwards compatibility in mind.
Meanwhile Switch 1 games aren't designed to compile shaders on the fly or while loading for a new GPU like PC games do (these days often accompanied by shader complication stutters because developers just bloat their games with endless shader permutations that take ages to all pre compile and are slow to compile on the fly),
so what it seems like is that Nintendo had to develop a translation layer that does this automatically while the game is running.

so in the end, what it sounds to me like, is that the Switch 2 does what basically any PC game does. it runs the game, and compiles shaders that the new GPU understands.
the main issue they had to solve is that console games aren't designed to do that, because all shaders of a console title are precompiled and just installed with the game itself for digital games, and prewritten on the cartridge for physical releases.
 
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cireza said:
I don't see any difference. My understanding is that they are converting instructions and assets on the fly to imitate the Switch 1 behavior, which means they are imitating the hardware as close as possible (or at least close enough to not break the games) = emulation.

It is also stated in the interview. You have both translation and emulation, obviously.
Click to expand...

No, he's not saying there's both translation and emulation, he's saying it's somewhere between hardware BC and emulation to make it easier to understand. I.e. there is translation only (of GPU calls, shouldn't be necessary for CPU). They are not emulating the Switch on the Switch 2.
 
kevboard said:
it's not actual emulation.
the way they describe it is that the system recompiles shaders to work with the new GPU.
meanwhile the CPU code probably runs without much of any intervention needed.

in the end, what we have here is games that were compiled for Nvidia Maxwell needing to run on Nvidia Ampere.
like a PC game designed originally for the GTX900 series running on a PC with an RTX3000 series.
you don't need to emulate that game if you want to play it on the RTX3000 GPU, but the RTX3000 GPU needs to understand the shader code.

PC games of course compile shaders on the fly or during loading screens so that the specific GPU you use understands how to draw the image.

on Windows this just usually works out of the box as they use an API like Direct X that is designed with forwards and backwards compatibility in mind.
Meanwhile Switch 1 games aren't designed to compile shaders on the fly or while loading for a new GPU like PC games do (these days often accompanied by shader complication stutters because developers just bloat their games with endless shader permutations that take ages to all pre compile and are slow to compile on the fly),
so what it seems like is that Nintendo had to develop a translation layer that does this automatically while the game is running.

so in the end, what it sounds to me like, is that the Switch 2 does what basically any PC game does. it runs the game, and compiles shaders that the new GPU understands.
the main issue they had to solve is that a console game isn't designed to do that, because all shaders of a console title are precompiled and just installed with the game itself for digital games, and prewritten on the cartridge for physical releases.
Click to expand...

Yeah, except I don't think it's actually recompiling shaders on the fly, it's translating the GPU calls.
 
RoadHazard said:
No, he's not saying there's both translation and emulation, he's saying it's somewhere between hardware BC and emulation to make it easier to understand. I.e. there is translation only (of GPU calls, shouldn't be necessary for CPU). They are not emulating the Switch on the Switch 2.
Click to expand...
kevboard said:
it's not actual emulation.
Click to expand...
Thank you both for the clarification.

I play mainly third party games so I am expecting the worst lol.
 
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RoadHazard said:
Yeah, except I don't think it's actually recompiling shaders on the fly, it's translating the GPU calls.
Click to expand...

they might need to recompile the shaders too unless their GPU has a Maxwell compatibility mode.
the way they talk about it I feel like they are recompiling shaders... but who knows
 
kevboard said:
they might need to recompile the shaders too unless their GPU has a Maxwell compatibility mode.
the way they talk about it I feel like they are recompiling shaders... but who knows
Click to expand...

Yeah, maybe, but given the issues real-time shader compilation causes on PC I'm not sure how well that would work on hardware much much weaker. But who knows.
 
RoadHazard said:
Yeah, maybe, but given the issues real-time shader compilation causes on PC I'm not sure how well that would work on hardware much much weaker. But who knows.
Click to expand...

since all the Switch 1 shaders are already there and precompiled, the software they use could translate and recompile these the first time you launch a Switch 1 game.

so they wouldn't necessarily translate these on the fly
 
winjer said:
Since both CPUs are ARM based, they probably run the same instructions.
But the GPU on the original Switch is based on Maxwell arch, so it's probably necessary to recompile shaders in real time.
So they probably got some dedicated instructions in the SoC to do this faster.
Click to expand...
Yeah they have a JIT Shader Binary transpiler, instead of supporting legacy instructions like Sony/MS + AMD do.
 
Every backwards compatible console has done this to some degree. That's why you're best off keeping your old systems.
 
Aren't the games running at native resolution switch 1 on switch 2? So, why the gatekeeping behind higher resolutions and higher frame rates? Compatibly? Money? Or are we to expect more feee upgrades like the listed 10-12 we got the other day?
 
Guardian Monkey said:
Aren't the games running at native resolution switch 1 on switch 2? So, why the gatekeeping behind higher resolutions and higher frame rates? Compatibly? Money? Or are we to expect more feee upgrades like the listed 10-12 we got the other day?
Click to expand...
I think if a Switch 1 game has an unlocked framerate, it automatically benefits from being on Switch 2.

If it was locked to 30 fps, it could get a free update to change it to 60.

If there's other updates like better textures or new control scheme, the publisher may charge for it.
 
Oh this is "outrageous" too? At this point I am expecting the next headline to be "Nintendo president didn't have eggs for breakfast" and gaf be like:

Real Housewives Table Flip GIF
 
Woopah said:
I think if a Switch 1 game has an unlocked framerate, it automatically benefits from being on Switch 2.

If it was locked to 30 fps, it could get a free update to change it to 60.

If there's other updates like better textures or new control scheme, the publisher may charge for it.
Click to expand...
I don't think Zeldas added anything except 60 and resolution upgrades. No texture adjustments from what I can tell. I guess they can justify it by adding that map stuff. I'm sure as other cross gen games come like Metroid they may offer upgrades that have better textures since it's a dual system game. But just speaking to legacy sw1 games since they are already emulating these games I guess they are updating beyond sw1 native game by game.
 
I read this as

"software" = emulator

"hardware" = Switch 2

"hybrid" = the software emulator runs on the Switch 2 hardware

"proprietary technology" = Nintendo wrote the emulator themselves

Not much to see here, Nintendo quietly makes the best emulators for their old games. The NES, SNES, and N64 games included with NSO subscription are all running on Nintendo software/hardware hybrid proprietary technology too and they run very well
 
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