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Official ESPN NBA League Thread (Please read carefully!)

Matrix

LeBron loves his girlfriend. There is no other woman in the world he’d rather have. The problem is, Dwyane’s not a woman.
CK,when can we play? Yao needs to face Deke.
 

Truelize

Steroid Distributor
I really don't get what you all find fun about not controlling the defender that is covering the man with the ball.
I just lost to Konex and his Lakers, and I did pretty good actually. But there were long stretches throughout the game where he never personally guarded the man with the ball and during those stretches I could not get a score. By setting all the defensive pressure to tight you take away most of the chances for lay-ups and easy shots already. I don't get why some people feel the need to float in the key with a player as well. Duncan didn't even get double digits this game because he would get triple teamed everytime he touched the ball in the paint. Two computer players and the player that Konex was controlling as well. The majority of my points in the second half came from the outside. Where as during the first half he played man-up defense the majority of the time and everything was going well. It was competitive. He won the first quarter, I won the second.
Konex might have would've won regardless, he shot very well with Malone and did whatever he wanted to with Kobe. Kobe had a freakin cradle dunk in traffic!! What's up with that. *hides eyes*. But I just don't think this is fair play.
Anyway we could stop this type of play from happening? If not then oh well. But I must admit I have no problem losing when I have a chance to compete, but it irritates me to play against what I call cheap defense. There is no way that in the real NBA (not some video game that can be exploited) you would never see this type of play. Or at least real NBA players wouldn't be so weak against it.

Making me watch all your replays was kinda annoying too. But at least I knew that you were doing that to be funny and talk your trash. :D
 

Matrix

LeBron loves his girlfriend. There is no other woman in the world he’d rather have. The problem is, Dwyane’s not a woman.
Tru...I complained about that a couple of years ago and got into a fight with people here (looks at Dmczaf :D *,its best just to let it go and play the way everyone else does :p
 

Matrix

LeBron loves his girlfriend. There is no other woman in the world he’d rather have. The problem is, Dwyane’s not a woman.
I know,but I went nuts about and everyone laughed at me :D
 

Cloudy

Banned
I play against folks (99% of players lol) who manually roam the court and I have no trouble scoring against them. Hell, I personally can't stop the pg dribble and layup in the paint any other way so I guess I got used to that since everyone I play uses their PG as their primary offensive player o_O

And I let guys jack up threes cos I know they're not gonna make them all. My primary concern was Timmy and you went away from him....

edit: Matrix, last year, you complained about camping in the paint on defense with the center. No one really does that this year...that I've seen anyways :lol
 
truelize, so what do you want people to do when playing zone? you want to outlaw zone defense all together?? when i play zone, i usually pick eddie jones and anyone who comes into my zone i defend that player myself. but what you're basically saying (always cover the man w/ the ball) is that you want everyone to play man-to-man D at all time, and that would be lame
 

Cloudy

Banned
Exactly. It's not like I was camping in the paint. I just played Kobe or Lamar in zone and defended manually if the ball came my way. I will put up a poll for it as we've been doing though...
 

Matrix

LeBron loves his girlfriend. There is no other woman in the world he’d rather have. The problem is, Dwyane’s not a woman.
"Matrix, last year, you complained about camping in the paint on defense with the center. No one really does that this year...that I've seen anyways "

That was the year before last,I didnt get the game for league play last year remember :p
 

Truelize

Steroid Distributor
I'm not saying don't play zone at all. I'm saying control the player that is matched up with the ball handler. By doing that you give the other player a chance to actually find an open man and fake your oppenent out with moves and fakes. Which would be closer to real life basketball. In this game my weakest player on the floor is pretty much useless offensively, or at least on the HOF setting. So what I find most people do is pick the player that is guarding my weakest and float with him. Sometimes they will play man-to-man defense and jsut double team the ball. But other times they will play a 2-3 zone and pull their player into the middle of the zone creating a 2-1-2 zone (or something similar). Zones are not that hard to beat. Attack the gap and push the ball out to the wing. But the ball doesn't really move fast enough to take advantage of that strategy. Another way to beat a zone is by swinging the ball or better yet by playing an inside/outside game. But being that this is a video game and not real life. You can't really play those ways.
So really the only way to score consistantly against an oppenant that plays like this is to hit the long range shot.
Well I don't have a Peja, and even Peja is not gonna be on in this game all the time.
Teams like the Spurs and the Rockets will have a lot of trouble playing against a defense like this because our big men are our primary scores and this takes care of them pretty well. I'm not sure if the Heat have matched up against this defensive strategy yet, and I have no clue how good they will do.
But it does make it very tough to compete. Yes I am not the best at this game yet. And I'm whining again. But I'm a competitve person so this is how I look at things.

And I know that you guys voted that we can use our teams however we want. All I was asking was do you actually find it fun when someone does this to you? Do you really enjoy playing defense like that yourself? Cause I don't think I would be beaten so consistantly if I knew how to take advantage of the game you guys do, and I wont. I don't enjoy having the computer play defense for me while I float the lane. I feeling like I'm cheating or playing cheaply. I do it in games cause I'm forced to, and it usually gets me back into games. But it's not fun. And it's not anywhere near simulation.

Yeah yeah. Larry Brown again. I'll take my 1-15 record and cry myself to sleep I guess.
 

Truelize

Steroid Distributor
Cloudy said:
Exactly. It's not like I was camping in the paint. I just played Kobe or Lamar in zone and defended manually if the ball came my way. I will put up a poll for it as we've been doing though...

I wasnt' so much a problem when you used Kobe. Cause then you were at least controlling a player that was on the top of the zone. I could sometimes pull you far enough over that the weakside player was open for a shot. It was when you controlled Odom and left Bowen alone that killed me. You could just sit with one foot in the key and just move laterally and be able to get to where ever the ball was. You computer player would react to the pass and you would fall in behind them.

You can put up a poll but I'm pretty sure no one really cares about what I'm saying.
 

Cloudy

Banned
So what I find most people do is pick the player that is guarding my weakest and float with him

Just like in real-life hoops. Ever see the Lakers play the Spurs? Kobe roams while TOTALLY ignoring Bruce Bowen :D

PS: I put up a poll though. We will not ignore anyone's complaints :)
 

Truelize

Steroid Distributor
Yeah but the real life Bruce Bowen is a little more able than the Bruce Bowen that is in this game. LoL.

You don't need a poll. It was a question of whether you actually cared about playing the game more sim like.
I mean think about it. You set all your defensive pressure to tight. And then you let the computer guard the ball handler.
Go play a game of HOF against the computer with their defense set to tight and try to get around the defense by dribbling. You can't. The computer is slower to react to skip passes though. Cause they are still primarily controlling one player. But against the dribble the computer plays very strong.

You can't actually think that you are playing anything that is really fair. When your defense is set to tight your bench players can guard Parker and Ginobli. I'm sorry but not even those players dreams aren't as good as what they wind up playing in this game. West?? Who the heck is West? Oh he's the guy that nailed two threes and played phonebox defense on Parker. Yeah he's a future all-star for sure. LoL.

But don't worry I wont bring it up after my next loss or the one after that.

I even played a guy tonight that is rated 22nd right now online. And he never played that style of defense. He always controlled the defender playing the ball. And he was absolutely insane on offense.
Did you guys know that there was an alley-oop button? I didn't. And there must be cause he had at least four oops on me.
But on defense he switched players with the pass and brought guys from the weakside when he was trying to block shots. It was the most realistic I've seen this game played. And he killed me. But I never felt like I was being cheated. I just wasn't good enough.
 

Cloudy

Banned
It's not "fair" for me to keep you from scoring? o_O The reason you lost is that you didn't attack me with Bowen and MAKE me play him honest. He was 2/3 but you didn't go to him more.

Instead, you kept jacking it up with Barry and Manu for 14/34 which resulted in easy fast-break opportunities for me. That's not smart hoops, man. When people sag off your role players, attack the basket with that guy...

Not trying to call anyone out but why do we only hear complaints after people lose? :D
 

Ramirez

Member
Tru has a point,I fucking hate when people never man up and guard me themselves ALL GAME.It is so easy to cause TO's when you play as a side person and just wait for the icon thing to pop up.

But its VC's fault for not putting in a defensive stance button,but then these same people will defend the auto stance button when they don't even attempt to guard anyone themselves in the first place,lmao.

Its pretty obvious why you hear complaints after people lose.I see the same bullshit when I win most of the time too,but its usually on the other guy,so why am I going to complain about that?I can totally understand them complaining though.Keep your rose tinted glasses on all you want,but this game can be some serious bullshit sometimes.
 

Ramirez

Member
Your poll is flawed,it isn't that its hard to score against CPU defense all the time,its that the chance of a TO goes up about 100% when a person just has someone roaming around the court in this game.
 

Cloudy

Banned
but its usually on the other guy,so why am I going to complain about that
See, I personally will complain about something whether I win or lose. The player whoring bothered me (and it still does) even though the only guy I've lost to is one of the few that spreads the ball around. Any videogame will have some BS but you gotta put up with the good and the bad. Folks just come off as a sore losers when they type "gg" after a win and give us essays after a loss :p

Your poll is flawed,it isn't that its hard to score against CPU defense all the time,its that the chance of a TO goes up about 100% when a person just has someone roaming around the court in this game.
And that's exactly the point (turnovers) :D And I made the poll using the specific complaint wording...which is what I've been doing since Week 1.
 

Truelize

Steroid Distributor
Of course you will here complaining after losses. If I had won the game it would have been an acheivement and I would have just patted myself on the back and waited for the next game.

As for attacking with Bowen? Are you kidding me. I have a better chance of chucking up 35 threes with Gino and Barry then I do scoring with Bowen. Plus you are already controlling his man (which is either Odom or Bryant). Bowen is limited.
I didn't play "good basketball" because I wasn't being defended "good".

This game like every other basketball video game, has things you can exploit.

I would think that always controlling the man guarding the ball handler would prove much better how good or bad you are at this game. It would give us all a much clearer picture of who knows how to play "good" basketball.

I understand this game very well. And I have no problem scoring with a role player. But when the defense doesn't respond/respect outside ball movement no coach would start asking their weakest player to start carring the load.

*during a Spurs timeout*
"Ok Bruce, they arent' even guarding you. They have three guys standing around Duncan and somehow the guys at the top of the zone are standing with their heels on the free-throw line but they can still get a hand up on all our 3-point shots. Yeah even that West guy. Who is he? Ok but anyway. Odom just seems to be standing with one foot in the key with his arms outstretched. When he does that you should....... well you can't go to the hoop cause there are two other defenders standing there too. Hmmm. Yeah the triple team down there is bad. Well I guess you could try to shoot. You've done that before right? Bruce? You know shoot the ball? No not that karate kick move you pulled on Wally last year. I mean shoot the ball towards the hoop. Yeah it's kinda like a dunk or a lay-up which I know you can do when you wide open on the break. But please just try it."
*next play Bruce throws it off the shot clock*
 

Cloudy

Banned
I really don't think manual zone defense is an "exploit" because without that, everyone would just do iso-motion all day with their pgs to get easy layups which is what you seem to want. THAT is an exploit of the auto-defensive stance and I don't know why anyone would think that constitutes "fair play"...

If you think you lost the game cos I wasn't playing "good basketball" on defense, explain why you couldn't stop anyone on my team from scoring? You lost that game by taking bad threes which I allow (just ask Fifty) that I converted for easy transition scores. One or two guys (to make matters worse, perimeter players), taking all the shots is not gonna win you many games if you're playing anyone who even tries on defense.

And if I was using the Spurs, I would go to the paint with Duncan and pass out for open shots if I'm doubled. If Bowen was not being played honest, I'd look to get him open for 3s (He is a good 3pt shooter). You didn't do any of that. All you did was try to score with your PG and SG the whole game....even when it was clearly not helping you.

PS: Delonte West was the 24th pick in the last draft and he was a steal for Boston...
 

Ramirez

Member
Case in point,my game just now,I really don't feel like arguing about it,but Malley you should try not to roam the floor so much.I had so many TO's cuz you would run into the pass everytime I brought up the icon passing.

But whatever,no one is gonna change how they play.
 

Malleymal

You now belong to FMT.
gg ram.... I was trying to intentional foul, I had no idea how, lol

edit....

actually, I really look to anticipate the pass, and I would press the steal button when I thought you were going to pass to the wing for the three and thats where I got those steals, but you do the same thing when I would pass... I would play you man on man sometimes and sometimes I would play off, if you were controlling Iverson because it is impossible to keep a hand in his face... and I gave that game away, poor coaching by sloan...
 

Cloudy

Banned
cuz you would run into the pass everytime I brought up the icon passing.

If someone is cheating off your icon passing, stop using it or pull it up sometimes even if you're not gonna pass to throw them off. That is one of my major beefs with the game design. Your opponent should NOT be able to see when you're gonna pass. I get annoyed when people are cheating off my icons but it's Sega's fault for allowing that crap..
 

Truelize

Steroid Distributor
Cloudy said:
I really don't think manual zone defense is an "exploit" because without that, everyone would just do iso-motion all day with their pgs to get easy layups which is what you seem to want. THAT is an exploit of the auto-defensive stance and I don't know why anyone would think that constitutes "fair play"...

If you think you lost the game cos I wasn't playing "good basketball" on defense, explain why you couldn't stop anyone on my team from scoring? You lost that game by taking bad threes which I allow (just ask Fifty) that I converted for easy transition scores. One or two guys (to make matters worse, perimeter players), taking all the shots is not gonna win you many games if you're playing anyone who even tries on defense.

And if I was using the Spurs, I would go to the paint with Duncan and pass out for open shots if I'm doubled. If Bowen was not being played honest, I'd look to get him open for 3s (He is a good 3pt shooter). You didn't do any of that. All you did was try to score with your PG and SG the whole game....even when it was clearly not helping you.

PS: Delonte West was the 24th pick in the last draft and he was a steal for Boston...

I have never made any comment saying that I would have won if you didn't play that style of defense.
All I asked was if you enjoyed playing that style. And I have pointed out rather well why I feel that defensive style is kinda cheap due to how slowily the ball moves around in this game and how effectively the computer can defend my players.
I did not use my pg that much. Parker is my pg. He was on the bench because I simply hate how people abuse their pgs for lame highlight reel layups. Plus there was no chance of going to the basket on a drive anyway man. I have stated very clearly that you had 3 players in the key. LoL.
Passing the ball into Duncan is a great idea but when I try to get him the ball and you jump in front of him with your guy as the icons pop up it is really hard. I had a ton of turnovers doing that. So I stopped.
Sorry you can't argue that you play that defensive style because I was exploiting the Isomotion, seeing as I dont use it. You play that way because that's how you can win. Fine.
I wont play that way.

And even if your poll wasn't worded right, it still came out even. That means there are enough people playing in this league that do not think it is fair to play defense like you did that game.

This is not personal guys. I really like playing in these leagues. I brought this up simply because it has always been a problem with online basketball games. And if you look at the box score of my game the only quarter that was bad was the one that Konex played with this "dropback zone".
Konex: wouldn't the game have been much more exciting if it had been closer? Where as the second half crawled along due to this.

Yes you were smart to focus on Duncan. But I really think setting your defensive pressure to tight and then being mindful of where he is on the court is enough. You didn't need to smother him.

And I know no one will change the way that they play. Malleybal will never die. :D And like I said earlier I will do my best to not bring this up again.

from now on it will just be: gg. :D
 

Cloudy

Banned
I did not use my pg that much. Parker is my pg

Barry is also a PG...

try to get him the ball and you jump in front of him with your guy as the icons pop up it is really hard

I don't do that. I personally think it's cheese but that's another debate...

I have stated very clearly that you had 3 players in the key. LoL.

I didn't get even one defensive camping call that game so I dunno how you can say that. Also, I only play Kobe or Lamar and I DO NOT bring them in the paint unless a guard is driving to the hoop..which you rarely did...

Sorry you can't argue that you play that defensive style because I was exploiting the Isomotion, seeing as I dont use it

I never said you did iso-crap but that is what'll happen if everyone is playing man-up all game. I said I started playing that way when Sega took out the manual defensive stance last year..

You play that way because that's how you can win. Fine.

I can win anyway, it's just that I'll give up more points than I do now. You think you'd beat me even if I played man-up? I dunno, dude :p

And if you look at the box score of my game the only quarter that was bad was the one that Konex played with this "dropback zone".

I played the same way ALL game except for the last minute or so when I used Kobe to hassle Ginobili...

Yes you were smart to focus on Duncan. But I really think setting your defensive pressure to tight and then being mindful of where he is on the court is enough. You didn't need to smother him.

I'm sorry but :lol

And even if your poll wasn't worded right, it still came out even.

Only 6 of 12 have voted...

This is not personal guys. I really like playing in these leagues.

I would hope no one takes anything here personally and yes, the leagues are great but I hope folks start taking losses a bit better :D
 

Matrix

LeBron loves his girlfriend. There is no other woman in the world he’d rather have. The problem is, Dwyane’s not a woman.
Welli,can you play our game tonight? I got the Stros game at 8 pm tonight and was curious if you could play after its over.
 

Matrix

LeBron loves his girlfriend. There is no other woman in the world he’d rather have. The problem is, Dwyane’s not a woman.
Ramirez said:
Fouls are practically non existant in this game,through 5 games my highest fouler has 6! LMAO

I dont think I'll ever get to play Welli cause you held him to 27 points and I think he's f-ing pissed and hates this game and his team :(
 

jobber

Would let Tony Parker sleep with his wife
Truelize said:
I have never made any comment saying that I would have won if you didn't play that style of defense.
All I asked was if you enjoyed playing that style. And I have pointed out rather well why I feel that defensive style is kinda cheap due to how slowily the ball moves around in this game and how effectively the computer can defend my players.
I did not use my pg that much. Parker is my pg. He was on the bench because I simply hate how people abuse their pgs for lame highlight reel layups. Plus there was no chance of going to the basket on a drive anyway man. I have stated very clearly that you had 3 players in the key. LoL.
Passing the ball into Duncan is a great idea but when I try to get him the ball and you jump in front of him with your guy as the icons pop up it is really hard. I had a ton of turnovers doing that. So I stopped.
Sorry you can't argue that you play that defensive style because I was exploiting the Isomotion, seeing as I dont use it. You play that way because that's how you can win. Fine.
I wont play that way.

And even if your poll wasn't worded right, it still came out even. That means there are enough people playing in this league that do not think it is fair to play defense like you did that game.

This is not personal guys. I really like playing in these leagues. I brought this up simply because it has always been a problem with online basketball games. And if you look at the box score of my game the only quarter that was bad was the one that Konex played with this "dropback zone".
Konex: wouldn't the game have been much more exciting if it had been closer? Where as the second half crawled along due to this.

Yes you were smart to focus on Duncan. But I really think setting your defensive pressure to tight and then being mindful of where he is on the court is enough. You didn't need to smother him.

And I know no one will change the way that they play. Malleybal will never die. :D And like I said earlier I will do my best to not bring this up again.

from now on it will just be: gg. :D


You should take lessons from me on how to use the Spurs. If use the right combinations from the bench, it's no way you should lose unless Tim or Tony are ice cold.
 

Truelize

Steroid Distributor
jobber said:
You should take lessons from me on how to use the Spurs. If use the right combinations from the bench, it's no way you should lose unless Tim or Tony are ice cold.

Jobber you gotta help me then man. I am so lost with this team. I can honestly only figure out a couple ways to score consistantly. And when I get up against someone that knows this game better than I do I get stuck. If you could have watched my game against Konex you would have seen how badly I got shut down against the zone.
Help me!!


Konex:
Barry is a shooting guard that played some pg last year with the Sonics. He doesnt come in for Parker in this game he comes in for Gino. I play him out of position sometimes.

I know you weren't "camping" in the key. I mean that when you were controlling Odom it appeared to me that the key was very cramped. Odom would have one foot inside the key or be very close to it. That's what it looked like.
And please don't think I brought this up because I'm saying I would've won if you didn't play that defense. I might have had a better chance, but you are obviously better at this game than I am right now. Your points were all pretty easy. Especailly the baskets you scored with Malone. I know those ones well cause I got to watch the replays of all of them. :D


Is there anyway that I can ever play any of you guys in games outside of the league? I need some practice and I am available almost every night that I am in town.

I honestly don't have trouble with losing guys. Honest. I get ticked off (mostly at myself) when I have no idea what to do in certain situations in the games.
Malleyball is just craziness. Sure I Larry Browned him after the game. But it was just crazy. And he killed me with it. And Konex your defense shut me down just like Fifty did. I obviously have no clue how to play against that.
I would love to play more than one game a week of this game against some people that know what they are doing. I'm not getting any better this way. And really, it's not like I have a weak team or anything. I should be able to do much better.

Let me know if you guys can play. PM me.
 

Cloudy

Banned
True if you have AIM, you can catch a lot of us playing nights and weekends. Just add us and ask.

And the subs system is totally wack, it subs in guards for guards and forwards for forwards regardless of specific position if there is a reserve that is waaay better than another reserve in the correct position. I had to trade Kareem Rush cos the game kept subbing him in at the point cos he was rated higher than my pgs :(

I guess Barry is technically a SG but he plays both positions. He played point for Seattle and he will see time at point for the Spurs cos there is no way they'll have him guarding the Kobes and Tmacs in the West for any extended periods lol
 

Truelize

Steroid Distributor
I don't use AIM. I'm an msn user. Why don't you americans use MSN? I don't know a single person that uses AIM up here in the Great White North (yes it has been snowing the last two days).
 

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
Ugh, fucking hate this game. Hinrich and Yao can make shots with hands in their faces but not my guys? Everyone can pass competently but my dudes pass it into other people's backs? Knicks aren't that bad, cmon.
 

Matrix

LeBron loves his girlfriend. There is no other woman in the world he’d rather have. The problem is, Dwyane’s not a woman.
Welli,we both sucked ass that game,plain and simple..our teams stink.I got sooo lucky to win the game,gg anyway.

I wish I had a damn player that could shoot the f-ing ball from outside.
 

Fifty

Member
Truelize said:
I don't use AIM. I'm an msn user. Why don't you americans use MSN? I don't know a single person that uses AIM up here in the Great White North (yes it has been snowing the last two days).


You're Canadian?!?! Where do you live?
 

Cloudy

Banned
Hmm...I seem to take very few 3s compared to everyone else :eek:

edit: I can advance us this evening if Fifty and Theo come through. Ramirez, it's time!!!
 

jobber

Would let Tony Parker sleep with his wife
Truelize said:
Jobber you gotta help me then man. I am so lost with this team. I can honestly only figure out a couple ways to score consistantly. And when I get up against someone that knows this game better than I do I get stuck. If you could have watched my game against Konex you would have seen how badly I got shut down against the zone.
Help me!!

I beat you in the 1st tourney with the Spurs.
It's easy to play up on the 2-3, 3-2, and 1-3-1. You got to set some offensive plays. THe Spurs have ALOT of cut to the basket plays. Just pass the ball in the lane to cutter and it should go in 95% of the time. Also it's no way you should be subbing Barry in for Parker.
Put Manu at SF, Barry at SG, and Parker at point. Sub in Horry at C in the 2nd and 3rd. If he's shooting good, keep him in the rest of the game. If Manu is shooting bad, bring in Bowen or Brown. Leave everyone else on the bench unless you're fouling like crazy.

Oh yea, unless you're wide open, you will NOT hit a 3 pointer with anyone. If you're wide open off a double team, pull it. I had Duncan make a 3 cause Parker was triple team. Parker is the key to everything. He can drive though the lane and hit a layup in traffic. If you get trapped pass it and keep movin the ball to the open player.
 

Fifty

Member
Cloudy said:
Hmm...I seem to take very few 3s compared to everyone else :eek:

edit: I can advance us this evening if Fifty and Theo come through. Ramirez, it's time!!!


He said he'd be on between 11 and 12 tonight. I'll be on then, waiting.
 

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
Cloudy said:
Damn...tough loss, CK.

Why are you not using Jamal Crawford though? o_O

He's not as good as you guys say in this game.

And then of course the trend so far with the league has been to jam the middle with either 1-3-1 or 2-3 zones, so my small lineup really can't do much.

What kills me is the undeserved turnovers though. 33 of them that game versus 20.
 

Ramirez

Member
I was checking out my TO stats and their realtively good compared to the rest of you :p

Week 1-21 (I blame this on still learning the game :p)
Week 2-11
Week 3-14
Week 4-11

And of course the abysmal 30+ vs. Malley,but that had more to do with the playstyle than anything :p

I wish I had a damn player that could shoot the f-ing ball from outside.

You traded him to me,muahahaha!

Ramirez, it's time!!!

Time for what,me to whip your ass again like I in every sport? :D
 

Cloudy

Banned
What kills me is the undeserved turnovers though. 33 of them that game versus 20.

The turnover stat tracking is wrong and there's a note about that on the league site.

By the way, I see Bob does not utilize Vince at all. You might wanna trade with him and see if Vince can help spread the defenses for you...if Bob is interested of course...

Time for what

Kobe time!
 
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