Crossing Eden
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On Final Fantasy XV and female characters
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
Astral Dog
Member
Blame Tabata
SilverArrow20XX
Walks in the Light of the Crystal
I'd say Cloud definitely has more development. Between FFVII, Before Crisis, Crisis Core, Advent Children, multiple novellas, and the fact that his character arc was more deeply explored in FFVII than Lightning's was in XIII, I'd say he's significantly more developed.
Flame Lord
Member
Not everything can appeal to everyone. What's the problem with having a character deisgned to appeal to a specific audience?
What difference does it make that there are a lot of characters like that? There are a lot of characters in a lot of games made to appeal to a certain demographic, I'm not seeing what the problem with that is. You might have a point if EVERY female character was like that, but they aren't.
So should I go around shitting on the many series that deign males characters to pander to females like Twilight? And with a cast like this:
I don't think it's fair to say they're only appealing to male players. And these are the main character who are always on screen, compared to Cidney who you probably visit to upgrade your ride every once in awhile.
Well like you said she's barely wearing anything so I'd assume it's not uncomfortable, but of course I've never worn anything like it so I guess I can't say for sure.
It's based off reality to a point. The clothes the main cast is wearing fighting giant monsters and armies of dudes with guns seem far more problematic than Cidney maybe getting some oil on her.
That's understandable, but again the game isn't even out. I'm not going to act like she's going to be some super deep character or anything though, because she's also a side character, so I really don't see a problem if she's not super developed.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
You are gonna to have to explain that one. Being determined dosn't mean you are strong if you continually depend on others to accomplish something.
Cidney aside, the one thing that's really infuriated me is the constant shilling that Luna is a "strong female character". That as well as naming a console bundle after her reeks of pretentiousness. It's not that I don't BELIEVE them, it's just that classifications like that should be up to the audience, not the creators.
People determined that Tifa and Aerith were strong female characters without a single piece of marketing telling us to think that way.
People determined that Tifa and Aerith were strong female characters without a single piece of marketing telling us to think that way.
If she doesn't end up getting fridged for Nokuto's manpain I will eat a sock.
DrunkShogun
Member
I'm expecting Luna to die. She's there to enhance the character development of noctis so can easily see it. Tabata likes to go for sad stories from his previous work.
killatopak
Member
After X-2, I think it's okay to make an all male cast of playable characters. Not really sure why not having a female playable is a bad thing.
Yeah but she trying shit just puts other people in danger, because she isn't capable of shit. She was a fool. Also, everything she does it's because she's was been told to/supposed to do. She has 0 personality.
Did we saw the same movie?
She lived as a damsel in mistress half her life. She's forced to marry Noctis for some weird reason (but don't worry, they're childhood friends), and of course she agrees because the oracle and shit and because she has no personality whatsoever.
Then she gets damsel in mistress'ed again and she needs to be saved. And when she was to get into action, she does the most shitty ass jump, putting Nyx at risk again to save her sorry ass.
She has no personality, she just do what she's been told to do (and failing to do so). She may be as well a robot (and that would be a better twist at this point).
Then she gets damsel in mistress'ed again and she needs to be saved. And when she was to get into action, she does the most shitty ass jump, putting Nyx at risk again to save her sorry ass.
She has no personality, she just do what she's been told to do (and failing to do so). She may be as well a robot (and that would be a better twist at this point).
Yeah, ITT: people who don't know what fujoshi are. The main party is like a wet dream for them.
I deliberately said "not-weak", not strong. By that I mean she's not just sulking everywhere like a sick kitten. But I do have my hopes adjusted to jRPG level.
Wrong thread.
There are people have said that since the E3 announcement of the title change. I'm one of them.
Regardless it doesn't have anything to do with the main topic.
Same shes totally going to die
YankeeDonB
Member
That's a very rugged-individualistic limited view of strength though isn't it? My problem with Luna in the movie wasn't that she wasn't strong, but rather that her motivations were so poorly illustrated.
Agreed, better to just portray her as they want, and see how the fans take it. Telling people who have found her portrayal wanting that she's strong isn't going to change any minds. If anything, it's going to make people dig in their heels and work harder to find evidence that she's NOT strong. I don't think it's pretentious though -- I think it's an attempt at damage control. Like they're aware that there's very vocal contingent who finds Luna wanting, and they want to try and reassure everyone that no, she's actually pretty great.
I'm probably going to be passing on the game until it's in the bargain bin at this point. The rocky development already made me wary, but the disagreeable portrayal of women pushes it over the top.
I'm almost ashamed that it's on my radar at all. I would have no interest in this game if it weren't for its legacy.
That Luna slap is just ughh.
I'm almost ashamed that it's on my radar at all. I would have no interest in this game if it weren't for its legacy.
That Luna slap is just ughh.
I think Tabata has more backwards views on women than Nomura. It was made pretty apparent in his erasure of Stella and the male gaze monstrosity that is Cidney. He wants XV to be the Japanese equivalent of a dudebro game (hence his focus on the road trip), but it doesn't work in the context of Final Fantasy because it has always been a gender inclusive series.
People like to overreact with everything about FFXV, I don't think it's necessarily justified but we will see.
Case in point
Type-0 had a really cool cast of female characters though.
I agree completely on Cindy but can anyone give an objective reason or a quote by Nomura during an interview why Versus would've had a better emphasis on women, or more female characters in the party or story?
Also... FFXV's villain slapping Luna is wrong, but the main character of a game initiating combat with Stella is okay?
Also... FFXV's villain slapping Luna is wrong, but the main character of a game initiating combat with Stella is okay?
sensui-tomo
Member
As i've said before, People here have a double standard when it comes to violence with women. That thread for The Hateful 8 kinda showed how people werent fine with it. (its not gendered violence, its a dude hitting someone he'd have hit regardless of their gender ( i think i'm using the right term? if not please correct me)
Flame Lord
Member
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Guys this is not about why there's no women in the party, but rather why the actual women in the game sucks so much.
In what way is she strong, then?
In what way is she strong, then?
So in one she is a passive damsel and in the other an equal opponent?
Like I said before, it's not that she gets hit, it's about how she takes it, which seems like a total opposite of "strong".
The Emperor
Member
To be fair there is a difference in the visual portrayals there.
StellaxNoct seemed like equals in that trailer.
Here Luna is clearly in a weakened more vulnerable position.
Who knows though, the game aint out...
With Nsync as the cast of this dude bro game?
sensui-tomo
Member
guessing that slap scene happens after she fights with leviathin or something, which hey might leave someone in a weakened state, but i might be wrong. (looks like the same area)
Ganon Dragmire
Member
Thank you pashmilla. I look forward to the updates.
Probably more than you though. haha
Probably more than you though. haha
Cleavage is relative.
Going out of your way to look hot at your job is stupid (unless it's part of it).
Psychological Intellect
Banned
HD girls are hard
BRocknRolla
Member
Information about much of this seems pretty limited right now, but I have a strong feeling there will be a lot to say when the game does come out.
Cindy though... Man. Just terrible. Just terrible.
Cindy though... Man. Just terrible. Just terrible.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more incredibly tempted I am to go back and re-examine the other games in the series through a feminist lens with focus on the female characters. Probably starting with FFXIII, because for all the bad stuff I will say about that game, I will absolutely defend its female characters with my dying breath.
The Emperor
Member
Yeah sure could be. We will await the game before judgement.
For as much shit as XIII got, I give it props for putting the women front and center. Lightning was largely the main player character. The plot revolved around Fang and Vanille. Fang was even the strongest character in the game. Vanille was a bit of a sexualized mess. Hope's mom was actually "tough," as the meme goes, and did everything she could to keep her son safe. She was a badass.
XV feels like a bit of a regression on that front. That being said, I am completely in love with the designs they have for the ladies this time around. All the more reason why I'm disappointed we won't have any in our party this go around.
XV feels like a bit of a regression on that front. That being said, I am completely in love with the designs they have for the ladies this time around. All the more reason why I'm disappointed we won't have any in our party this go around.
While I think cindy's outfit is dumb
People Do actually do that, a recent teacher got a lot of flack on the net for... well being sexy and a teacher. No funny stuff like messing with the kids... just being attractive.
Now, trying to be sexy whilist trying to be a mechanic... is fucking dumb. But its anime final fantasy land so i'm willing to put some suspension of disbelief on that one.
but her outfit is still very dumb
Novel Mike
Member
See this comment right here and the dozen or more like it in this thread is the biggest problem I have with this discussion. A lot of people seem to think that we can't really debate this until we see the full scope of their characters but the biggest problem I have with this argument is pretty simple... Metal Gear Solid 5.
MGSV had similar complaints about one key character, Quiet because of her appearance and how shes shown in the trailers (eye candy, and being tortured were two of the primary scenes we saw her in, sound familiar?) and despite that Kojima ASSURED everyone that there was a big reasoning for it and that lead a lot of people to echo that idea and that we cannot properly talk about it until the game is out because CLEARLY there's more to it then that because of what Kojima suggested... Guess what, there was a reason and it was completely bullshit and it was even WORSE then a majority of the people complaining about originally thought and she was even MORE sexualized then it first appeared.
So on that note, please everyone stop saying we cannot discuss what we've already seen because the game isn't out yet. Could it still be that both Luna and Cindy are great female characters? Yes, but if they had scenes showing so don't you think we would have already seen them by now? The intent of the developers is clear as freaking day, I'm not saying that they are purposefully trying to be sexist but the designs of these characters and the roles they are ultimately playing speak for themselves and to suggest that we shouldn't discuss the obvious negatives now even with limited information is doing a huge disservice to the discussion at hand.
I think between the marketing of MGSV and this game (and a few others such as the Beserk DW game) there is a clear pattern within marketing and games themselves that we really shouldn't be ignoring at this point.
Great OP and pashmilla if you haven't I would highly recommend playing the Legend of Heroes Trails in the Sky and Cold Steel games, so much better character development, for both male and female characters, and overall stories then anything FF has produced as of late, it may not have the same kind of massive budget the FF games have but those games are infinitely more enjoyable then anything I've played of FF since the PS2 era or maybe even earlier.
I really think this is a discussion that should be had after we play the games. If we look back at Final Fantasy XII marketing for instance I always got the sense that Ashe would be the demure princess that was trying to get back her country, but in the actual game was was pretty damn ruthless about it. Yuna was also portrayed as somewhat of a damsel in the marketing but was more than capable of holding her own.
Now, if the game comes out and Luna falls into a pitfall of being a horrible character we should revisit this conversation. How much (outside of Kingsglaive) have we actually seen of her in the game? Have we even seen 5 minutes of in-game footage of her?
Now, if the game comes out and Luna falls into a pitfall of being a horrible character we should revisit this conversation. How much (outside of Kingsglaive) have we actually seen of her in the game? Have we even seen 5 minutes of in-game footage of her?
KZXcellent
Member
To be honest I feel all the "Luna is a strong female" nonsense is just the team trying to make people forget about Stella, the former female lead. At least that's what it feels like. Stella was shown to be a strong female character and since she was replaced by Luna they feel the need to compensate.
Also, I don't actually care that Stella was removed anymore before anyone assumes.
Also, I don't actually care that Stella was removed anymore before anyone assumes.
Communication is a product of its time. It's irritating how transparent they are with the "strong female character" catchphrase but 20 years ago (I'd risk saying even 5+ years ago), very few voices were being raised to denounce games as being a sausage fest (and rightly so, FF almost always having a trio of female party members before this one), or female representation in games at all. This game is being made and marketed with a relatively strong awareness of what is and was being said about it and it's a big difference from previous entries.
Yes, it's artificial and grating and I'm not defending it because I roll my eyes every time I hear the "strong female character" mantra and I know it's been written by marketing people, but in my opinion the root cause of it is the game not having playable females in its cast and the criticism that emanated from it.
BRocknRolla
Member
I see where you're coming from... But as someone else pointed out on the first page, there has been some extremely troubling jumping to conclusions in the past about pre-game coverage. (The threads here about the cover of Far Cry 4; that the antagonist was a white, gay man and how troubling a portray this was. When in reality, neither ended up being true, and all of it was based on a single image.)
As far as MGS5, one of two things happened: 1) Kojima lied about the portrayal of Quiet to get people to not make a big deal about it, or 2) Kojima's general view of woman is so warped that he somehow thought his story justified her portrayal. People can take their pick. But regardless, it was a dishonest representation of what was really going to happen in the game.
Now, I don't think that does give us justification to pass judgment; not necessarily. Evidence, actual real evidence, is what any opinion or argument needs to be based in. I think the OP does a reasonable job of pointing out evidence based things here, but it doesn't change the fact that there isn't a lot to go on, hence the argument that we should wait until we have a body of evidence to actually draw from.
So people should certainly be willing to talk about it and raise potential concerns, but there is a very good reason we should be looking for more evidence before damning the game's portrayal of women. (I'm not confident the game will do even a reasonably good job of it, but I'd be cautious about saying anything too definitive at this point.)
Teletraan1
Banned
Perhaps if Cindy was a party member with a fleshed out story we wouldn't see here as just a blow up doll. I don't find her clothes such a big issue since I see girls dressed as revealing all the time in hot weather, in public, my car dealership has a receptionist with huge cleavage exposed year round. Women often dress provocatively irl and Cindy seems to be the only one really pushing it in this game. It isn't like they filled the game with a bunch of female NPCs with revealing clothing. I don't buy that you can't have women dressed provocatively in a game because it was designed by a bunch of men. I am not advocating that every female has to be a real doll but when it is a handful out of hundreds of npcs and characters doesn't seem extreme to me. Plus we have seen one of the male party members with no shirt on abs and muscles blasting out everywhere. No real difference between the attire imo. Blanket saying that only men created some of these provocative characters does a disservice to the women who are working in this industry. Bayonetta who is always lambasted for her sexuality was designed by a women.
The only real issue I have with her is the suggestive camera shots etc in the game and complete lack of point outside of being a piece of marketing material for young men. If SE had actually taken an effort to humanize the character like they did with scantily clad Fran, Ashe etc like you said we probably wouldn't care as much. Many FF female characters since we could decipher what they actually look like have worn revealing clothes but if they were given an actual character and story (that people actually like) people have less issue. I could get past Lulu's belts and breasts and garter and victory pose because I liked the character.
This whole Cindy fury seems so overblown for what is essentially a throw away NPC featured for advertising. How much is she actually featured in the game?
The only real issue I have with her is the suggestive camera shots etc in the game and complete lack of point outside of being a piece of marketing material for young men. If SE had actually taken an effort to humanize the character like they did with scantily clad Fran, Ashe etc like you said we probably wouldn't care as much. Many FF female characters since we could decipher what they actually look like have worn revealing clothes but if they were given an actual character and story (that people actually like) people have less issue. I could get past Lulu's belts and breasts and garter and victory pose because I liked the character.
This whole Cindy fury seems so overblown for what is essentially a throw away NPC featured for advertising. How much is she actually featured in the game?
YankeeDonB
Member
Hmm, she works hard with other people to get shit done? Even when the cost is high? That would seem to meet colloquial criteria for a designation of "strong." That's of course a separate matter from whether she's a good character or not.