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[oti]

Jèb!

 

[whyamihere]

I will laugh so hard if Melenchon beats Fillon.

 

[SgtCobra]

This is sooo good.

 

[Xando]

Wow I have never seen an election in a presidential country where 4 candidates got ~20%

I would have said great example for democracy if two out of four weren't Far Left/Far Right.

 

[Eolz]

And yet it went from a 0.64 difference at 83% of the votes to 0.44 with 86% of the votes.

It'll get closer for sure, but I really don't see the situation being reversed.
It's like for the preliminary elections for LR, some smaller candidates were in a similar situation.

 

[Coffinhal]

2002's first round was better, nobody topped 20%:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_presidential_election,_2002#Results

In 1995 IIRC, Jospin 23, Chirac 21, Balladur 19 and Le Pen 15

2007 and 2012 with only two big candidates over 26 were something elese

 

[whyamihere]

Has there been any polling for the parliamentary elections?

 

[turmoil]

2002's first round was better, nobody topped 20%:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_presidential_election,_2002#Results

It is strange given that the presidential system has a bias towards two strong parties given to the alliances to reach the ballotage.

Results like this looks like from a parliamentary system.

I would have said great example for democracy if two out of four weren't Far Left/Far Right.

Don't ask me, I voted for Jack Johnson

 

[Mimosa97]

Sorry, i'll do it in french if you can read it :
Je suis du nord-est, avec des grands parents ouvriers polonais que je suspecte par ailleurs de voter FN. C'est simple : la mort de l'industrie a tué une partie de la région. C'est un coin qui vivait grâce à ses usines, ses hauts-fourneaux etc., qui non seulement offraient de l'emploi direct mais aussi "indirect" (de nombreux bisrots etc autour des usines, qui ont tous fermé aujourd'hui). Ballade toi dans les coins autour de thionville, on a l'impression de voir des villes fantômes.
Mon grand père a voté communiste une bonne partie de sa vie, quand il travaillait et qu'une solidarité ouvrière forte existait, que la classe ouvrière existait.
Aujourd'hui, le discours de la gauche est inaudible pour eux, multiculturalisme etc. Ça leur parle pas (en tant qu'immigrés, ils sont venus dans l'optique de s'intégrer coûte que coûte, ils ont sincèrement l'impression d'un deux poids deux mesures entre eux et l'attention dont la gauche fait preuve vis à vis des populations maghrébines, de l'islam (y a évidement beaucoup de fantasmes)).

Voilà, c'était la version très condensée, si ça peut t'aider...
Si le sujet t'intéresse je te conseille de lire l'excellent livre (vraiment) Retour sur la condition ouvrière de S. Beaud et M. Pialoux, deux sociologues qui ont vu avant les autres la montée du FN chez les ouvriers.
Sorry for the french.

So much this.

Neogaf sadly isn't the place to talk about this. People here use their american glasses to analyze the situation in France and all they can think about is racism and Trump.

I voted Macron and will vote again against Marine Le Pen in the second round but I've always said that the two big parties are responsible for the rise of the front national. Also we have a massive problem with the spread of radical islam in some lost territories. I just hope Macron starts doing some serious work or we'll have Marine for president in 5 years.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I challenge people to read the BBC profile of Le Pen and come away with the idea she is totally racist anti-Semitic and hard right wing:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/marine_le_pen

She is nationalist and she is anti EU and she is too generous to Putin and she is tougher on mass Muslim immigration or mass any immigration. All true.
But I think Trump is far FAR worse In terms of stupidity but also how far right he is. Le Pen isn't out to demolish the state and social services, or be a military adventurist, she would be soundly rejected by the GOP if she was trying to run in the USA.

She is far worst than Trump. Trump is the far-right of the republicans, Le Pen is the far right. She have a precise ideology and she is strongly entrenched in a political tradition. She is calling for a 0 immigration referendum and removing the birthright to french nationality. Her in power, with the crazy presidentialist system we got, would be the end as france as we know it. Oh and she want to ban hijab/kipa in all public space.

 

[benjipwns]

In 1995 IIRC, Jospin 23, Chirac 21, Balladur 19 and Le Pen 15

2007 and 2012 with only two big candidates over 26 were something elese

1981 also saw Giscard 28%, Mitterand 26% (won in second round), Chirac 18%, Marchais 15%

1988 wasn't far off though Mitterand at 34% had a bigger lead over Chirac 20%, Barre 17% and Le Pen 14%.

1974 was the last time a French Presidential candidate topped 35% in the first round, Mitterand with 43%. And he lost in the run-off. (Giscard had 33% in the first round, 51% second.)

It is strange given that the presidential system has a bias towards two strong parties given to the alliances to reach the ballotage.

Results like this looks like from a parliamentary system.

But since there's the run-off you have every incentive to try and get your closest guy to the run-off and then if they fail, fall back on second or third choice.

The U.S. system informally does this through the party primaries.

 

[Mimosa97]

2002's first round was better, nobody topped 20%:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_presidential_election,_2002#Results

2002 ... The biggest shitshow in the history of the 5th republic.

My sister was 17 at the time and I remember her crying her heart out. I was 12 and I didn't give a fuck about what was happening lol

 

[Red Arremer]

I voted Macron and will vote again against Marine Le Pen in the second round but I've always said that the two big parties are responsible for the rise of the front national.

It's the same in Austria too lol. Though we've had the FPÖ in government before with the conservatives, and all they did was chop away at welfare, healthcare and education, while embarrassing Austria internationally and also filling their own pockets, which eventually led to one of the biggest corruption scandals in Austria.
Yet everyone's forgotten about it.

 

[Mimosa97]

It's the same in Austria too lol. Though we've had the FPÖ in government before with the conservatives, and all they did was chop away at welfare, healthcare and education, while embarrassing Austria internationally and also filling their own pockets, which eventually led to one of the biggest corruption scandals in Austria.
Yet everyone's forgotten about it.

I know what you're saying but you don't have millions of people living in poverty in Austria or wave after wave of terrorism while the list of radical homegrown elements that could blow up at anytime keeps growing and growing. It's definitely not the same situation.

Sadly in France we're stuck between the naive left who doesn't want to put words on the problem or the fascist and racist right who just wants to ruin everything for everyone. So we're stuck in the status quo and shit keeps getting worse.

 

[Eolz]

Has there been any polling for the parliamentary elections?

It's in two months, and not really done for the country, it's a bit complicated to say yet.
There'll be new changes in some weeks from all those parties, I wouldn't bet on anything right now.

 

[yananana]

Sorry, i'll do it in french if you can read it :
Je suis du nord-est, avec des grands parents ouvriers polonais que je suspecte par ailleurs de voter FN. C'est simple : la mort de l'industrie a tué une partie de la région. C'est un coin qui vivait grâce à ses usines, ses hauts-fourneaux etc., qui non seulement offraient de l'emploi direct mais aussi "indirect" (de nombreux bisrots etc autour des usines, qui ont tous fermé aujourd'hui). Ballade toi dans les coins autour de thionville, on a l'impression de voir des villes fantômes.
Mon grand père a voté communiste une bonne partie de sa vie, quand il travaillait et qu'une solidarité ouvrière forte existait, que la classe ouvrière existait.
Aujourd'hui, le discours de la gauche est inaudible pour eux, multiculturalisme etc. Ça leur parle pas (en tant qu'immigrés, ils sont venus dans l'optique de s'intégrer coûte que coûte, ils ont sincèrement l'impression d'un deux poids deux mesures entre eux et l'attention dont la gauche fait preuve vis à vis des populations maghrébines, de l'islam (y a évidement beaucoup de fantasmes)).

Voilà, c'était la version très condensée, si ça peut t'aider...
Si le sujet t'intéresse je te conseille de lire l'excellent livre (vraiment) Retour sur la condition ouvrière de S. Beaud et M. Pialoux, deux sociologues qui ont vu avant les autres la montée du FN chez les ouvriers.
Sorry for the french.

J'ai vraiment peur d'être H-S mais quel deux poids deux mesures est sous-entendu ici ? Ce n'est absolument pas un reproche ni même une questionnement du raisonnement, je suis simplement intéressé par la question, étant moi-même descendant d'immigrés d'origine maghrébine. N'y vois pas là une critique encore une fois, ça m'intéresse simplement d'entendre ce point de vue.

Etant donné que c'est pas vraiment l'endroit pour discuter de choses, j'imagine que, si tu le souhaites bien évidemment, une réponse via MP ou quelque chose du genre serait plus appropriée, pour ne pas détourner le sujet de ce topic.

Voilà tout.

Deeply sorry for the french, but I just wanted to ask something.

 

[whyamihere]

89% of the vote in

Macron - 23.49%
Le Pen - 22.13%
Fillon - 19.78%
Melenchon - 19.40%
Hamon - 6.18%

6.18% is just so bad.

 

[Atilac]

Odds of Le Penn winning?

 

[Joeytj]

Can't help but put my tinfoil hat on and wonder if Mélenchon was a late attempt from Putin to derail Macron... and damn, it almost worked.

He appeared right after it became obvious that Macron was the one to beat and has syphoned away a lot of votes from Macron in second round polls, although it also took away support from Le Pen.

Edit: God damn, polls look like they'll be spot on, with less than a 1% variance. Especially that Ipsos exit poll.

How did the French get to have such good polling? Has Nate talked about this?

 

[saturnine]

I would have said great example for democracy if two out of four weren't Far Left/Far Right.

Remember folks : it's only democracy when all candidates are indistinguishable.

Can't help but put my tinfoil hat on and wonder if Mélenchon was a late attempt from Putin to derail Macron... and damn, it almost worked.

He appeared right after it became obvious that Macron was the one to beat and has syphoned away a lot of votes from Macron in second round polls, although it also took away support from Le Pen.

Good fucking lord, this has to be a joke.

1) Mélenchon was already at 11% in 2012.
2) Macron was the surprise that siphoned votes from the PS and the soft right. If Mélenchon took votes from anyone, it was the desperate people that chose FN or the remnants of the PS once Macron was done with them.

 

[Moppeh]

89% of the vote in

Macron - 23.49%
Le Pen - 22.13%
Fillon - 19.78%
Melenchon - 19.40%
Hamon - 6.18%

6.18% is just so bad.

Yep. Hamon deserved better.

Does he have any chance of being the nominee for the next election? It seems like during a more normal election he would have done well.

I would have said great example for democracy if two out of four weren't Far Left/Far Right.

Honestly, it seems like a pretty good democracy to me. I'm Canadian, so I dunno if I would prefer a presidential system but I think it is a good thing that all political leanings are so well represented.

 

[Coffinhal]

I would have said great example for democracy if two out of four weren't Far Left/Far Right.

Mélenchon isn't "far left", Iglesias and Podemos isn't "far left", Sanders isn't "far left", Tsipras isn't "far left", Oskar Lafontaine isn't "far left", Marisa Matias isn't "far left".

No political researcher uses seriously that word to define the left that is not the usual social-democracy from the 20th century. Mélenchon isn't a revolutionnary, he fully supports the republican regime and has the more advanced platform for human rights (says Amnesty International), against corruption and for a new form of democracy (whether you agree with it or not).

The "Les extrêmes" rhetoric doesn't work anymore, sorry. Please find another way to discredit alternatives that stand for humanism BUT stand against neoliberalism AND xenophobia, nationalism, racism and an authoritarian form of government.

Yep. Hamon deserved better.

Does he have any chance of being the nominee for the next election? It seems like during a more normal election he would have done well.

I don't see how the PS could survive in the next five years. They can't win anything in the législatives (which are going to be a mess anyway).

 

[FDC1]

Odds of Le Penn winning?

Almost non existent, surveys after 1st round are giving 62 to 64% for Macron.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Average poll saw Clinton win with +2%. She got +2% of the popular vote.

Brexit polls were constantly skimming the 50/50.

How anyone can think that Le Pen is able to make up 26% in two weeks or the AfD achieve 51% up from their 10% is beyond me.

"But see what happened with Brexit and Trump" really doesn't cut it.

And with saying polls are useless you directly play into the hands of the far-right.

Germany is safe for a lifetime since it has a sane voting and parliamentary system.

 

[Elandyll]

Sorry, i'll do it in french if you can read it :
Je suis du nord-est, avec des grands parents ouvriers polonais que je suspecte par ailleurs de voter FN. C'est simple : la mort de l'industrie a tué une partie de la région. C'est un coin qui vivait grâce à ses usines, ses hauts-fourneaux etc., qui non seulement offraient de l'emploi direct mais aussi "indirect" (de nombreux bisrots etc autour des usines, qui ont tous fermé aujourd'hui). Ballade toi dans les coins autour de thionville, on a l'impression de voir des villes fantômes.
Mon grand père a voté communiste une bonne partie de sa vie, quand il travaillait et qu'une solidarité ouvrière forte existait, que la classe ouvrière existait.
Aujourd'hui, le discours de la gauche est inaudible pour eux, multiculturalisme etc. Ça leur parle pas (en tant qu'immigrés, ils sont venus dans l'optique de s'intégrer coûte que coûte, ils ont sincèrement l'impression d'un deux poids deux mesures entre eux et l'attention dont la gauche fait preuve vis à vis des populations maghrébines, de l'islam (y a évidement beaucoup de fantasmes)).

Voilà, c'était la version très condensée, si ça peut t'aider...
Si le sujet t'intéresse je te conseille de lire l'excellent livre (vraiment) Retour sur la condition ouvrière de S. Beaud et M. Pialoux, deux sociologues qui ont vu avant les autres la montée du FN chez les ouvriers.
Sorry for the french.

This is pretty much exactly what happened here in the Mid West/ Rust belt.

Entire populations that were heavily unionized in the past and would normally be the natural enemy of the right switched or became apathetic, because the left (Dems) stopped talking to them, and the right / extreme right used the "blame the [insert minority that's not your own for losing your job] technique to do so as well.

Thank god there's a 2 round system in France, although it looks like Macron would still have (barely) made it.
As it is, unless there's a major upheaval, Macron's got it and probably by a wide margin (although probably not quite as big as in 2002).

 

[Mimosa97]

Can't help but put my tinfoil hat on and wonder if Mélenchon was a late attempt from Putin to derail Macron... and damn, it almost worked.

He appeared right after it became obvious that Macron was the one to beat and has syphoned away a lot of votes from Macron in second round polls, although it also took away support from Le Pen.

Nah. Melenchon benefited from a grassroots movement and from a transfer of voters from Hamon and the socialist party to his movement.

He also had the best campaign and was considered the most convincing at every televised debate.

I feel like he could have done a better score if not for his ties to dictatorships/failed states like Venezuela, Cuba etc... and his love for dictators.

 

[Trickster]

Odds of Le Penn winning?

I've seen people say .1%

Expected second round results seem to be something like 65:35 in Macrons favor

 

[Red Arremer]

I know what you're saying but you don't have millions of people living in poverty in Austria or wave after wave of terrorism while the list of radical homegrown elements that could blow up at anytime keeps growing and growing. It's definitely not the same situation.

Sadly in France we're stuck between the naive left who doesn't want to put words on the problem or the fascist and racist right who just wants to ruin everything for everyone. So we're stuck in the status quo and shit keeps getting worse.

Oh we certainly have plenty of poverty in Austria - not as bad as France, but it definitely is there. And yes, of course it's not target of terrorism, but that's mostly cause Austria is just small and insignificant. Yet the same racist sentiment is festering, especially now after the refugee crisis - Austria was one of those countries that got the brunt of the refugee waves and a big chunk of those trying to get to Germany but couldn't get there for various reasons.

So like, of course the situation is not exactly the same, but there's similarities, especially in regards to the 2 big parties simply picking their noses and being completely frozen in inaction, keeping the status quo that slowly but surely is letting the country slide down the shitter, while bickering like children and trying to blame each other, although they constantly are blockading each other; the conservatives more so than the social democrats, but neither are free of blame.

It seems that the social democrats here are starting to wake up and recognize that they have made mistakes and need to modernize, but the conservatives are sticking to their guns and act as if they're completely free of any sort of blame - and I sincerely hope they're gonna eat crow soon.

 

[Eolz]

Odds of Le Penn winning?

Low.

Yep. Hamon deserved better.

Does he have any chance of being the nominee for the next election? It seems like during a more normal election he would have done well.

He would have had better chances at a different time for sure, but I don't think we can predict what will happen for the PS yet.
Preliminaries open to everyone were a mistake. Lots of people voted against Valls when he had most of the party's support for example, but was hated from part of the non-party voters due to his role in the previous government.

Hamon wants to play a role for the legislative next, but who knows afterwards. He still have time, he's still relatively young.

 

[Joeytj]

Nah. Melenchon benefited from a grassroots movement and from a transfer of voters from Hamon and the socialist party to his movement.

He also had the best campaign and was considered the most convincing at every televised debate.

I feel like he could have done a better score if not for his ties to dictatorships/failed states like Venezuela, Cuba etc... and his love for dictators.

Minor detail...

 

[whyamihere]

Le Pen has a greater-than-zero-percent chance of becoming president because obviously she's one of two people on the ballot, but I would guess her actual odds are fairly low given how good the polling was in the first round and how poorly she polls against Macron in the second round.

 

[Elandyll]

Le Pen has a greater-than-zero-percent chance of becoming president because obviously she's one of two people on the ballot, but I would guess her actual odds are fairly low given how good the polling was in the first round and how poorly she polls against Macron in the second round.

I'd be surprised if Macron does less than 60%.

 

[benjipwns]

Has there been any polling for the parliamentary elections?

France's National Assembly is made up of single-member constituencies like the U.S. House. It's not PR or even mixed.

And it has a run-off...of sorts. The second round doesn't require 50%+1 like the Presidency and there can be more than two candidates, but you have to get at least 12.5% in the first round to make the second round.

Fun example from 2012, Hauts-de-Seine 9th:

First round:
UPM - 30.4%*
DVD - 26.9%*
Socialist - 22.1%*
National Front - 5.3%
Centrist - 4.7%
DVD - 3.0%
Green - 3.0%
Communist - 2.1%
Pirate - 1.3%
RPG - 0.5%

Second round:
DVD - 39.4%
UPM - 38.4%
Socialist - 22.2%

 

[whyamihere]

I'd be surprised if Macron does less than 60%.

I would be too. I mean, anything can happen I guess, but I would say given how stable this race has been for the second round polling, that he gets 60%+.

France's National Assembly is made up of single-member constituencies like the U.S. House. It's not PR or even mixed.

Yeah, I know, but even a generic ballot poll can give a look at where things might stand.

 

[Oriel]

It takes a particularly demented mindset to make the case that Le Pen coming second means "Frexit" is around the corner. (being the Fail it's par for the course mind you)

All evening we're hearing from the media that the status quo and "elites" have been defeated. HOW?! Sure, the two principle parties failed to win but this election was a victory for moderate centrism of the sort that the establishment parties push in their platforms. Tonight was a rejection of the extremist, populist Alt-Right bullshit the media claims is taking over the West.

 

[MarveI]

Haven't followed this at all. Are the results (Macron leading) good all things considered ?

 

[Mimosa97]

Oh we certainly have plenty of poverty in Austria - not as bad as France, but it definitely is there. And yes, of course it's not target of terrorism, but that's mostly cause Austria is just small and insignificant. Yet the same racist sentiment is festering, especially now after the refugee crisis - Austria was one of those countries that got the brunt of the refugee waves and a big chunk of those trying to get to Germany but couldn't get there for various reasons.

So like, of course the situation is not exactly the same, but there's similarities, especially in regards to the 2 big parties simply picking their noses and being completely frozen in inaction, keeping the status quo that slowly but surely is letting the country slide down the shitter, while bickering like children and trying to blame each other, although they constantly are blockading each other; the conservatives more so than the social democrats, but neither are free of blame.

It seems that the social democrats here are starting to wake up and recognize that they have made mistakes and need to modernize, but the conservatives are sticking to their guns and act as if they're completely free of any sort of blame - and I sincerely hope they're gonna eat crow soon.

Same shit in France. Even though they still try to deflact the blame on the left, conservatives still admit that they are in part responsible for the current situation.

Damn we really some kind of paneuropean movement.

 

[Coffinhal]

Can't help but put my tinfoil hat on and wonder if Mélenchon was a late attempt from Putin to derail Macron... and damn, it almost worked.

He appeared right after it became obvious that Macron was the one to beat and has syphoned away a lot of votes from Macron in second round polls, although it also took away support from Le Pen.

Edit: God damn, polls look like they'll be spot on, with less than a 1% variance. Especially that Ipsos exit poll.

How did the French get to have such good polling? Has Nate talked about this?

There were no exit polls today, at least for the first numbers that came up at 8pm in France.

Pollsters based their numbers tonight on the actual results with a sample of 500 polling stations representative of the population. Ipsos really was spot on as expected, they work closely with the best political researchers.

Also I have to disagree on Putin using Mélenchon as a puppet. If you have information, please share. Otherwise it's just another smear campaign or just a bad hypothesis.

 

[Souldriver]

The polling was very close. I'm quite impressed.

 

[turmoil]

But since there's the run-off you have every incentive to try and get your closest guy to the run-off and then if they fail, fall back on second or third choice.

The U.S. system informally does this through the party primaries.

I'm from Argentina and the system of our presidential elections are kinda like France's(not identical though).

The problem I have with the system is that it promotes tactical voting if you are a supporter of a smaller party/candidate.

In regards of the parliamentary system I don't like that you could spend months or years without government if things go wrong.

I would love to have a presidential system with Maine's ranked elections.

But political elites will never support something like that.

 

[Coffinhal]

The polling was very close. I'm quite impressed.

For reference

What a campaign that was!

 

[Eolz]

Haven't followed this at all. Are the results (Macron leading) good all things considered ?

Depends what people consider "good".
It's not bad per se.
It's the best chance to beat Le Pen (Fillon/Le Pen was the worst case scenario for example), and Macron is mostly following in the current President's footsteps, albeit more liberal.

 

[benjipwns]

Yeah, I know, but even a generic ballot poll can give a look at where things might stand.

A generic ballot poll for the entire nation is worth even less than the Generic Congressional poll because of the run-off round.

 

[Mael]

Also I have to disagree on Putin using Mélenchon as a puppet. If you have information, please share. Otherwise it's just another smear campaign or just a bad hypothesis.

Putin doesn't give a shit to have a direct puppet, he wants to weaken the EU and western countries influence.
Mélenchon would have done that for free.

 

[tuxfool]

It takes a particularly demented mindset to make the case that Le Pen coming second means "Frexit" is around the corner. (being the Fail it's par for the course mind you)

All evening we're hearing from the media that the status quo and "elites" have been defeated. HOW?! Sure, the two principle parties failed to win but this election was a victory for moderate centrism of the sort that the establishment parties push in their platforms. Tonight was a rejection of the extremist, populist Alt-Right bullshit the media claims is taking over the West.

To be fair it is the Daily Mail. They absolutely cream themselves over their masturbatory EU failing fantasies.

 

[Oriel]

Haven't followed this at all. Are the results (Macron leading) good all things considered ?

Very good actually. It had been thought Le Pen might top the poll. That she failed and a moderate centrist (who's also very pro-EU) came first bodes extremely well for the future. The Alties and their allies over at RT/Sputnik have been trying to spin this but it's been a setback for anti-EU extremism.

 

[benjipwns]

I'm from Argentina and the system of our presidential elections are kinda like France's(not identical though).

The problem I have with the system is that it promotes tactical voting if you are a supporter of a smaller party/candidate.

In regards of the parliamentary system I don't like that you could spend months or years without government if things go wrong.

I would love to have a presidential system with Maine's ranked elections.

But political elites will never support something like that.

That is how Australia's House is elected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_House_of_Representatives#Electoral_system

 

[whyamihere]

A generic ballot poll for the entire nation is worth even less than the Generic Congressional poll because of the run-off round.

YOU KNOW WHAT BENJI

 

[Alx]

Can't help but put my tinfoil hat on and wonder if Mélenchon was a late attempt from Putin to derail Macron... and damn, it almost worked.

He appeared right after it became obvious that Macron was the one to beat and has syphoned away a lot of votes from Macron in second round polls, although it also took away support from Le Pen.

Edit: God damn, polls look like they'll be spot on, with less than a 1% variance. Especially that Ipsos exit poll.

How did the French get to have such good polling? Has Nate talked about this?

Le monde wrote an interesting article about Silver's fears of herding, and how the different methodology explained the consistency in French polls compared to American.
http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs..._5115335_4355770.html?xtmc=nate_silver&xtcr=1

In short, Americans select a completely random sample of the population, then balance their results based on individual profiles. The French select a representative sample of the population, based on a profile distribution, and make less corrections to their answers.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Goddamnit lmao