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[Jedeye Sniv]

of course these games could not have been done on the ps3. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. We are just arguing that diminishing returns are starting to arise in a big way. This is not the graphical leap that we have come to expect when switching gens.

What graphical leap do you expect though? Seriously. It's fucking video game art made by the same artists who were making stuff last gen. Short of it looking absolutely real, what 'leaps' are left to make? Apart from scale (which can already been done pretty well) we're looking at baby steps in texturing and poly counts etc.

 

[jmls1121]

Everything I've seen looks amazing.

Just wait til people get their hands on it. It wont take long before it makes the PS3 look notably outdated. Generational leaps may be getting smaller, but not that much smaller. People exaggerate this 'diminishing returns' thing.

Ive talked to a bunch of guys this morning, and I dont think its exaggerated at all. These are your Madden gamers, COD guys, maybe they buy uncharted and assasin's creed too. They are not neogaf members or die-hard enthusiasists.

They said they barely saw a difference in the graphics.

 

[ArjanN]

It's a big step for the consoles but PC had alrready reached this level, most games were just being held back by also having to run on 360/PS3.

 

[ced]

Killzone was certainly a massive jump considering it's a launch title. I'm also assuming that it is not some BS demo like we have seen in the past from certain devs.

It's a big step for the consoles but PC had alrready reached this level, most games were just being held back by also having to run on 360/PS3.

Total BS, there is nothing on the PC that looks like that Killzone demo.

 

[dark10x]

It's a big step for the consoles but PC had alrready reached this level, most games were just being held back by also having to run on 360/PS3.

I sure as hell haven't seen anything on the PC like what we were shown today. I challenge you to give me examples.

Crysis 3 is probably the single most impressive thing I've seen on the PC to date but even that isn't as impressive as some of these demos. Of course PC will keep pace but, at the moment, I haven't seen anything as impressive.

 

[UncleSporky]

of course these games could not have been done on the ps3. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. We are just arguing that diminishing returns are starting to arise in a big way. This is not the graphical leap that we have come to expect when switching gens.

I think this could be clarified. These games could be done on the PS3, they'd just be lacking in some details.

Essentially this is not a Dead Rising situation where the game just has too many on screen characters at once to have been done right on the previous console. They could easily have all the core gameplay and even most of the spectacle from these games on PS360. They couldn't replicate what we've seen exactly, no, of course not.

 

[Shion]

The Capcom demo was leagues beyond anything on the PS360.

And that was only an early example of next-gen visuals.

 

[UncleSporky]

I sure as hell haven't seen anything on the PC like what we were shown today. I challenge you to give me examples.

Modded Skyrim, obviously.

 

[Seanspeed]

Ive talked to a bunch of guys this morning, and I dont think its exaggerated at all. These are your Madden gamers, COD guys, maybe they buy uncharted and assasin's creed too. They are not neogaf members or die-hard enthusiasists.

They said they barely saw a difference in the graphics.

Yea yea. We heard the same things last generation switch. I worked at Circuit City a while back when HDTV's were coming into their own. It was hard to sell people on the superior visuals of 720p/1080p over SD initially. A lot of people said they couldn't really tell much difference. I'm sure they've changed their minds by now.

Like I said, wait til people start to get their hands on it. It wont take long before we get used to it and then realize how inferior the PS3 is.

 

[BadWolf]

I came away very impressed, if those are launch (or first gen) titles then my oh my are we in for a ride with the PS4.

 

[manueldelalas]

Killzone was certainly a massive jump considering it's a launch title. I'm also assuming that it is not some BS demo like we have seen in the past from certain devs.

The BS demo was from the same dev speaking about the same franchise...

Besides the impressive tech demos (Capcom and S-E), the PC build of Watchdogs, the only impressive game there was Killzone, and I really didn't see the big jump. They showed the intro sequence, which was on rails; but we have yet to see it in real gameplay conditions.

Knack and the Braid dude game could be done on any actual system, this or last gen.

 

[dark10x]

Modded Skyrim, obviously.

Ha ha, no. Not even close. The animation is awful, the world very static, and the game lacking in any of the advanced effects and particles we saw tonight. There's only so much that can be done with that game, however.

 

[Krowley]

What graphical leap do you expect though? Seriously. It's fucking video game art made by the same artists who were making stuff last gen. Short of it looking absolutely real, what 'leaps' are left to make? Apart from scale (which can already been done pretty well) we're looking at baby steps in texturing and poly counts etc.

Which, I think, is the point. That's what diminishing returns means. You're not going to get the same bang for your buck in terms of graphics jumps going forward.

It's really starting to show now, and one question is, will it have an effect on the speed of adoption for these platforms?

Will PS4 have trouble competing with PS3, considering things like library size and price comparison?

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Yea yea. We heard the same things last generation switch. I worked at Circuit City a while back when HDTV's were coming into their own. It was hard to sell people on the superior visuals of 720p/1080p over SD initially. A lot of people said they couldn't really tell much difference. I'm sure they've changed their minds by now.

Like I said, wait til people start to get their hands on it. It wont take long before we get used to it and then realize how inferior the PS3 is.

The biggest thing I can notice from playing games on my PC is that the LOD and IQ is already better while sporting much higher detail.

If some can't even tell how much better these games look then they really are reaching or just don't know how to gauge visuals.

 

[Projectjustice]

The Capcom demo was leagues beyond anything on the PS360.

And that was only an early example of next-gen visuals.

Was it real time though?

 

[thefro]

I think this could be clarified. These games could be done on the PS3, they'd just be lacking in some details.

Essentially this is not a Dead Rising situation where the game just has too many on screen characters at once to have been done right on the previous console. They could easily have all the core gameplay and even most of the spectacle from these games on PS360. They couldn't replicate what we've seen exactly, no, of course not.

Yep... I don't think many of these games will be breaking a lot of new ground as far as gameplay goes.

The particle effects look really pretty and you can do some cool things with physics on a scale that wasn't possible before. Getting a level or two further down the AI tree will be nice but that's not going to revolutionize AI in games unless programmers get a lot smarter. The online stuff with the PS4 sounds great and it'll be nice to have that all intergrated better into the experience but that's not a revolution in gameplay on its own, either.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Well I mean the problem is Sony not only crushed the WiiU last night and made Xbox platform only aficionados plenty nervous, but you also have PC defence forces on the roll out today. Thats a lot of toes stepped on, so you get a lot of damage control in response. This is the way of the console war, to admit anything at all in the positive for your deemed enemy is UNACCEPTABLE.

^The truth. Deep Down, Driveclub, Infamous, and Killzone all kill last gen. I don't have a horse in this race and am obsessed with graphics and I was floored at these games. You'd have to be blind/biased/have rose-tinted goggles on to think this isn't a huge leap.

Honestly, why in the world do you turn this into a fanboy thing? I've seen several people on here (myself included) who own all consoles and think it wasn't as big of a leap as the previous generation. PGR3 was a huge leap. Drive Club isn't as big. Sorry it doesn't agree with your MO, though.

As a fellow Lions fan I hate to get into an argument with you but the fact that you own all the systems is irrelevant. All of the posts I've read from you on the gaming side are pro-Nintendo or defending Nintendo in some way, just saying. Pie & Beans does have a point.

 

[Bidermaier]

I said wow.
But then I didnt say "Shut up and take my money"
And I think many people shares that feeling.

 

[flyinpiranha]

I hate using .gifs and youtube videos to prove a point. It's when you see it in action on your HDTV is where the real "wow" will come from.

Seeing everything I saw in that conference laid all my worries to rest personally. But I also remember "Crysis vs Uncharted" arguments from a couple years back where people kept saying that "Uncharted looks better" and I couldn't understand. How? Everything from resolution, to particles, to AA, to ... well, everything is better, but opinions are opinions and there isn't a way to fight those.

Either way, Patch is wrong, these launch games definitely look like a HUGE leap over the launch games on PS3. I can only imagine what will come in the years ahead.

 

[Pachterballs]

Anyone who acts surprised with seeing simply much better visuals is acting a fool. Other than a few games like Knack, the big titles definitely looked next gen. This is coming from playing BF3 and many games downsampled from 1800p on a high end rig.

Some of you simply don't know how to judge good visuals.

I think if Microsoft/Nintendo released those games, it'd be okay to like them.

 

[UncleSporky]

Ha ha, no. Not even close. The animation is awful, the world very static, and the game lacking in any of the advanced effects and particles we saw tonight. There's only so much that can be done with that game, however.

Yes, I'm sure PS4 will deliver on vastly improved animation, something that's only been limited by human talent since the PS2 days.

 

[LukeTim]

I think the visual improvement is very substantial. I was utterly amazed.

 

[AdventureRacing]

What graphical leap do you expect though? Seriously. It's fucking video game art made by the same artists who were making stuff last gen. Short of it looking absolutely real, what 'leaps' are left to make? Apart from scale (which can already been done pretty well) we're looking at baby steps in texturing and poly counts etc.

That's kinda the whole point.

 

[Kid Ying]

It looks very good, but doesn't match the wow factor that the last jump had. KZ2, MGS4 etc were just absolutely unbelievable, while this just makes me go "yeah, that looks really good!"

Yeah... I think Deep Down looked awesome, but even that wasn't in the same league as MGS4 back in the day, let alone MGS2. The graphics already were very good these days. They're just better.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Considering KZ looks considerably better than anything on any console, and it's a launch game, I would say your expectations were too high.

When did they say it's a launch title?
KZ2 was at the first PS3 conference as well, KZ1 came out in 2005 and yet KZ2 still came only in 2009.
Plus KZ2 is still one of the graphics powerhouse on the system looking better than 95% of the titles which were released much later.
Much like Rougue Leader 2 (launch title) was on Gamecube, when the hardware is easy to use and avoids esoteric stuff like Emotion Engine you're not going to see much jump and even then it isn't guarantee the difference will be what we usually see during a console's life (again, Cell and Killzone 2).

Also, again, where did they confirm KZ as a launch title?

 

[dark10x]

Yes, I'm sure PS4 will deliver on vastly improved animation, something that's only been limited by human talent since the PS2 days.

OK, now you're being silly.

We already have incredible animation this generation (take a look at Crysis 3 for a recent example). It's the addition of process intensive features such as advanced particles and physics in addition to those animations that will impress.

Skyrim features animation far below par for this generation. As a result, even with mods, the game really doesn't look all that impressive in motion.

 

[UncleSporky]

Either way, Patch is wrong, these launch games definitely look like a HUGE leap over the launch games on PS3. I can only imagine what will come in the years ahead.

The "leap" is not launch to launch, it's end-of-gen to start-of-gen.

Compare final PS2 games to launch PS3 games to see the immediate difference, the kind of difference people in a thread like this 7 years ago would've noticed.

Then compare final PS3 games to launch PS4 games. That's how you get a good indicator of last jump vs. this jump.

 

[Shion]

Was it real time though?

Yes.

That was definitely gameplay footage.

 

[Pein]

How the fuck do people look at Dragon Dogma 2 demo and KZ4 and not say its not a big enough leap.

You fucking people are blind, get some glasses.

seriously.

Killzone and Deep down are the best looking games I've ever seen.

 

[Curufinwe]

Judging the graphical capability of the PS4 based on videos of games 10 months out from launch is a little silly.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

Really? I think people outside of GAF wont be able to tell which of those gifs is newer.

it begins, haha.

 

[MrCunningham]

No, you're actually kind incorrect on this. When you say "most" that implies greater than 50% and that is absolutely not true. There have been high profile examples of games running at sub-HD but the majority of titles actually DO hit 1280x720 on previous consoles. Sub-HD isn't as common as you seem to think.

Well maybe most PC to console comparisons have skewered my view on this, since most of the major PC games that do get a home console release tend to fall below 720p. But I suppose that most console games that are specifically deigned for the hardware do target at least 720p.

I sure as hell haven't seen anything on the PC like what we were shown today. I challenge you to give me examples.

Crysis 3 is probably the single most impressive thing I've seen on the PC to date but even that isn't as impressive as some of these demos. Of course PC will keep pace but, at the moment, I haven't seen anything as impressive.

I think the problem with this is that most PC games are designed to scale to lower hardware specs. So the base game will never target higher end hardware but will include additional window dressing and effects that can be enabled on higher end PC's. I think Crysis 3 is one of those examples where the bottom floor for minimum system requirements are much higher than what you would normally see for your average PC game.

 

[Sirius]

mo polys mo problems.

 

[eBay Huckster]

I don't have a horse in this race

:lol

but in any case, pachter's pretty wrong here - now that i'm actually looking at the trailers these seem to be about as big a leap as ending-PS2 -> beginning-PS3

granted that's what happens when you go from low-PC to mid-high-PC power

 

[shandy706]

For once, I'd have to agree with the guy.

The visuals, while definitely pretty, did not feel like a substantial leap over PS3.

Am I the only one that feels like we're truly getting diminishing returns?

Are you blind? Do you not understand everything that is going on under the hood in the (real) gameplay we saw?

There's no way you understand what's going on in these next gen games and can say that.


Sorry, but you and Pachter both don't know what you're talking about.

 

[UncleSporky]

Are you blind? Do you not understand everything that is going on under the hood in the (real) gameplay we saw?

There's no way you understand what's going on in these next gen games and can say that.


Sorry, but you and Pachter both don't know what you're talking about.

Hilarious. Someone says they don't visually notice a difference, and you start blathering about stuff going on under the hood. Who cares, if it doesn't LOOK that much better?

If you want to argue that it does look much better, then say so. Don't start waxing poetic about the technology under the hood and whether somebody understands it.

 

[velociraptor]

The "leap" is not launch to launch, it's end-of-gen to start-of-gen.

Compare final PS2 games to launch PS3 games to see the immediate difference, the kind of difference people in a thread like this 7 years ago would've noticed.

Then compare final PS3 games to launch PS4 games. That's how you get a good indicator of last jump vs. this jump.

Killzone Shadow Fall looks 5x better than anyone out there on the PS3. Hell, look at Drive Club. No racing game comes close.

 

[lazer_bean]

if someone had told me that below screenshots were from a ps3 launch game i would have believed them.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

:lol

Tell me then, good sir, which thoroughbred am I backing?

 

[Macattk15]

Actually, pretty sure it's the other way around. General consensus seems to be that nothing that is known to be gameplay footage looks remarkably better.

It's pretty clear the jaded Nintendo defense force is out in full force sir.

It's not worth my time anymore to wage war with console fanboys. There is literally no winning that argument. I'll buy my PS4 and love the shit out of it regardless of what you or anyone else thinks.

Looking at your post history it's clear you're a Nintendo fanboy .... and a MLP fan .... ugh.

"General consensus" lol.

 

[Projectjustice]

Yes.

That was definitely gameplay footage.

How do you know? I saw nothing that hinted this and no one from Cap has said anything about the demo either its real time or not.

 

[Seventy_X_Seven]

Well I mean, if we are going to compare late last gen games versus early next gen games . . .

vs

 

[orioto]

if someone had told me that below screenshots were from a ps3 launch game i would have believed them.

lol..

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

if someone had told me that below screenshots were from a ps3 launch game i would have believed them.

I hate posts like these. I hate it because people are either too blind or too ignorant to see the difference. Show me a PS3 launch title that looks anything like this. Go on; I'm waiting.

 

[HueyFreeman]

I suppose this kind of topic was inevitable. But anybody who watched the KZ4 live demo cannot possibly feel this way if they're being honest with themselves.

I reeeeaally hope this gen doesn't devolve into rampant fanboyism the way the prior one did

 

[UncleSporky]

I hate posts like these. I hate it because people are either too blind or too ignorant to see the difference. Show me a PS3 launch title that looks anything like this. Go on; I'm waiting.

This obviously doesn't matter, and I'm speaking for both sides. He could post anything and you wouldn't admit you were wrong, and you could post anything and he wouldn't admit he was wrong.

I mean to save face, sure, you're going to say that you're open to being proven wrong, that's expected. But you're not really, and neither is anyone else.

 

[Always-honest]

if someone had told me that below screenshots were from a ps3 launch game i would have believed them.

That's just because you're not someone who is capable of seeing the difference.

This obviously doesn't matter, and I'm speaking for both sides. He could post anything and you wouldn't admit you were wrong, and you could post anything and he wouldn't admit he was wrong.

I mean to save face, sure, you're going to say that you're open to being proven wrong, that's expected. But you're not really, and neither is anyone else.

no, it's easy to tell if you have working eyes. If you are trained in looking. Some people just don't see it. That's fine. But always a hassle for people who do see it.
You're right that he could show an example, thinking it has the same fidelity. Cause he just wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

[Soul_Pie]

We've seen a few minutes of compressed pixelated footage from games out almost a year from now, possibly running on specs which have been improved, and the games look absolutely sensational and far beyond anything this generation.

To be honest, I was awestruck by the killzone footage, driveclub and deep down, they look astonishing. And we've barely even touched the tip of the iceberg. Still very early days yet. I'm positively salivating at what Naughty Dog will be able to do with this hardware.

 

[UncleSporky]

That's just because you're not someone who is capable of seeing the difference.

And his reply is that you're someone who cares too much about zooming in on a single face of a building and inspecting whether it's texture or geometry, because the end result is good enough either way.

 

[The Elite]

I suppose this kind of topic was inevitable. But anybody who watched the KZ4 live demo cannot possibly feel this way if they're being honest with themselves.

I reeeeaally hope this gen doesn't devolve into rampant fanboyism the way the prior one did

Rampant fanboyism has existed since the beginning of time.

"My deity is better than your deity, and has blast processing."

It's inevitable.