Support NeoGAF

[dabig2]

What evidence? We have no idea what Gore would have done.

Can't prove something that does exist, so yes, we don't know what exactly Gore would have done. I know what he wouldn't have done though. He wouldn't have fired the terrorism czar, he doesn't reject meetings that mention Osama Bin Laden's name, he doesn't focus on Iraq and Hussein over the growing threat of terrorism (before AND after 9/11 if it still happens), among other things.

Bush and Cheney were operating in different realities from the onset. The administration they gathered around themselves also occupied a different reality. I find it incredible to even suggest things go more or less the same with an increased focus on terrorism from the get go from a completely different administration with different goals and aims.

 

[SURGEdude]

I think a lot of people like to live in a fantasy land where they pretend that somehow Al Gore would have prevented 9/11. There is no evidence of that and no indication that he would have. He was in office for 8 years before that why didn't he have bin laden killed I. 1998. Why didn't he head off the threat for all the years before it. I'm done here.

I'm not saying he would have. I'm saying it's possible. And like I said there's almost no chance that Iraq would have happened without Bush.

 

[antonz]

Well put. Imagine the world without Bush and his ilk. It's possible there would have been no 9/11 and even if there was likely no Iraq war and perhaps Afghanistan as well. The lack of those 2 wars or even just one would have kept ISIS from forming... there are millions of dominos that never had to fall the way they did.

There was terrorism before Bush and his ilk as you put it. Frankly the United States since its inception has had run ins with radical Islam starting with the Barbary Wars. But all of this is frankly off topic. Radical Islam views the world as the enemy it doesn't need excuses to do the shit it does

 

[dabig2]

I think a lot of people like to live in a fantasy land where they pretend that somehow Al Gore would have prevented 9/11. There is no evidence of that and no indication that he would have. He was in office for 8 years before that why didn't he have bin laden killed I. 1998. Why didn't he head off the threat for all the years before it. I'm done here.

Fucking absurd. Even the failure of killing osama bin laden was more than anything Bush attempted to do before 9/11. He was content in letting him grow to go after "bigger game" whereas Clinton/Gore were extremely aware of its imminent danger. Clinton was literally mocked for going after Osama Bin Laden. Mocked by the same people who are now using the failed attempt to kill Osama as a mark against him and the inevitability of Al Qaeda while Bush sat on his ass doing nothing.

 

[MIMIC]

I was gonna make a thread (may still do it), but I just wanna say it here first: I completely underestimated ISIS. I made FB post about ISIS last year and holy shit does it look stupid right now >_<

 

[Astral Dog]

They are terrorists. Don't let anything distract you of that.

In saying that their message to the Muslim world is that they are trying to bring back the Caliphate. It's something along the lines of they believe God won't return until the caliph is established on Earth.

The last Caliphate was during the Ottoman Empire.

So they want God to return, by killing people? the power of stupid theology.
Not that it matters what a disaster.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Well put. Imagine the world without Bush and his ilk. It's possible there would have been no 9/11 and even if there was likely no Iraq war and perhaps Afghanistan as well. The lack of those 2 wars or even just one would have kept ISIS from forming... there are millions of dominos that never had to fall the way they did.

That's just silly, radical Islamic jihadism would still exist no matter who's in charge, if it isn't ISIS, it would have been Al Qaeda, it wouldn't have made these terrorists gentler and kinder.

People have different opinions about things, being tolerant of each other's ideas without resorting to hatred is what separates us from a bunch of extremists. It's almost like some people believe Americans right of center are the enemies instead of ISIS. The important thing is that we figure out how to deal with these terrorists before more innocents get attacked.

 

[Nathan_Drake]

Wow this thread is derailed as fuck. I am sure there are threads for gun control, 9/11 commission report, and left/right liberal/conservative debate. This thread is for Paris and it is for news related to it. I am not saying your arguments are illegitimate but I do feel they are not needed in this thread.

Feel free to tell me to fuck off but I have been checking this thread since last night to get great updates from members scouring the news sites and some being kind enough to translate. This is not the first derailment but it's taking up most the posts. Maybe it's because the news is slowing down but when I see 3 new pages added I expect at least 50% to be on topic of the thread title and related to the Op.

Thoughts with our French friends.

 

[PdotMichael]

Wow this thread is derailed as fuck. I am sure there are threads for gun control, 9/11 commission report, and left/right liberal/conservative debate. This thread is for Paris and it is for news related to it. I am not saying your arguments are illegitimate but I do feel they are not needed in this thread.

Feel free to tell me to fuck off but I have been checking this thread since last night to get great updates from members scouring the news sites and some being kind enough to translate. This is the first derailment but it's taking up most the posts. Maybe it's because the news is slowing down but when I see 3 new pages added I expect at least 50% to be on topic of the thread title and related to the Op.

Thoughts with our French friends.

All OT threads are about America.

 

[PrimaNocta]

Wild times we live in.

 

[IceCold]

So they want God to return, by killing people? the power of stupid theology.
Not that it matters what a disaster.

They are trying to fulfill the end of times prophecy. Big showdown battle between Muslims and Rome (retconned to the West) in some Syrian city (you can tell this shit was written centuries ago, warfare doesn't work that way anymore). Most of the Muslims will die, 5000 will remain, and then Jesus will return and save the Muslims. That's the gist of it.


You can't make this shit up sadly...

 

[Queen of Hunting]

Yup at this point its probs best this thread gets closed till some real updates happrn cos right now its just going in circles bout 9/11 n other stuff

 

[Cereal KiIIer]

Wow this thread is derailed as fuck. I am sure there are threads for gun control, 9/11 commission report, and left/right liberal/conservative debate. This thread is for Paris and it is for news related to it. I am not saying your arguments are illegitimate but I do feel they are not needed in this thread.

Feel free to tell me to fuck off but I have been checking this thread since last night to get great updates from members scouring the news sites and some being kind enough to translate. This is not the first derailment but it's taking up most the posts. Maybe it's because the news is slowing down but when I see 3 new pages added I expect at least 50% to be on topic of the thread title and related to the Op.

Thoughts with our French friends.

1. Get into thread about Paris
2. Read the last 2 pages and all I see is Americans talking about themselves as usual: "Al Gore, Guns, America, Bush & Trump"
3. Leave thread

 

[devilhawk]

Wow this thread is derailed as fuck. I am sure there are threads for gun control, 9/11 commission report, and left/right liberal/conservative debate. This thread is for Paris and it is for news related to it. I am not saying your arguments are illegitimate but I do feel they are not needed in this thread.

Feel free to tell me to fuck off but I have been checking this thread since last night to get great updates from members scouring the news sites and some being kind enough to translate. This is not the first derailment but it's taking up most the posts. Maybe it's because the news is slowing down but when I see 3 new pages added I expect at least 50% to be on topic of the thread title and related to the Op.

Thoughts with our French friends.

Agreed. This Al Gore conversation is just garbage, especially in this thread.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Paris, and the other places that were targeted by terrorist attacks yesterday. It shakes me to my core when things like this happen. I like to be optimistic, but holy shit, people can be really, really fucking evil. It's a lot to bear. I'm still optimistic enough to think that we'll be able to overcome this, but how do you combat psychopathic hatred, and while still maintaining your own humanity? Fucking shit...

 

[ProfessorMoran]

The nazis took over in Germany which was an established country with infrastructure. They still exist today, if they had the same hardcore religious beliefs and would kill themselves for their beliefs we would see terrorism in every State across America and every other Western country on earth.

You can't defeat an ideology with war, you only see hem get more recruits.

We can't kill Nazism, but we can kill Nazis, and we did. Nazis aren't running around killing Jews anymore not because we defeated their ideology, but because we fucking killed a mother load of them during WWII and now they're too chickenshit to start another movement because they know what we're capable of.

ISIS needs to be shown how far the free world is willing to go to send a message that tells these terrorist fucks to fuck off and don't fucking mess with us because we don't play nice.

 

[PdotMichael]

We can't kill Nazism, but we can kill Nazis, and we did. Nazis aren't running killing Jews anymore not because we defeated their ideology, but because we fucking killed a mother load of them during WWII and now they're too chickenshit to start another movement because they know what we're capable of.

ISIS needs to be shown how far the free world is willing to go to send a message that tells these terrorist fucks to fuck off and don't fucking mess with us because we don't play nice.

Are you 12 years old?

 

[Alpha Phoenix]

Starting to see Godwin's law at work.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Are you 12 years old?

No, are you?

 

[Sibylus]

Horrific attacks. I hope the coming overreaction is tempered by past experience.

We can't kill Nazism, but we can kill Nazis, and we did. Nazis aren't running killing Jews anymore not because we defeated their ideology, but because we fucking killed a mother load of them during WWII and now they're too chickenshit to start another movement because they know what we're capable of.

ISIS needs to be shown how far the free world is willing to go to send a message that tells these terrorist fucks to fuck off and don't fucking mess with us because we don't play nice.

Somehow a half century of occupation, engagement with Germans, rebuilding of Germany's infrastructure, economy, and democracy, legal prosecution of Naziism and their proponents, reparations, and reintegration into the wider European sphere didn't make it into your bogus analysis.

Weird.

 

[Spieler Eins]

We can't kill Nazism, but we can kill Nazis, and we did. Nazis aren't running around killing Jews anymore not because we defeated their ideology, but because we fucking killed a mother load of them during WWII and now they're too chickenshit to start another movement because they know what we're capable of.

ISIS needs to be shown how far the free world is willing to go to send a message that tells these terrorist fucks to fuck off and don't fucking mess with us because we don't play nice.

You know, Inglorious Basterds wasn't supposed to be a realistic reflection of WW2 or the real world.

 

[CrunchyB]

Are you 12 years old?

Well, he does have something of a point. Crippling their organization should reduce their threat.

 

[andythinkpad]

America's war on terror actually increased terror in the world. Good job.

Let's be honest here, it has always been war of civilizations, particular the two civilizations who share many religious origins and hate each other, the Christian West and the Islamic Middle East. It has been reignited since the retreat of the communist ideology.

In the 21st century, the clash has been under the disguise of war on terror, that's all.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Horrific attacks. I hope the coming overreaction is tempered by past experience.


Somehow a half century of occupation, engagement with Germans, rebuilding of Germany's infrastructure, economy, and democracy, legal prosecution of Naziism and their proponents, reparations, and reintegration into the wider European sphere didn't make it into your bogus analysis.

Weird.

What did you think we did with the Germans before we did all that? We killed Nazis and decimated Germany, that is why the Germans will never turn to Nazism ever again, the price of Nazism is too high for the German people to bear, the lesson was learned.

 

[PdotMichael]

No, are you?

Nice edit

But not to derail the thread even more. The total destruction of Germany and humiliation didn't lead to Germany post 1945 but to the Weimarer Republic (google it, pretty sure you don't know anything about it) after the Great War - what happened with Germany and Europe at the end of the Weimarer Republic should be common knowledge.

Without a real plan for the endgame everything is just wasting time and human lives. For Germany it was reconstruction and the European intregration, what is your plan for the ISIS controlled areas outside of some random Vietnam like killing.

 

[Blader]

We can't kill Nazism, but we can kill Nazis, and we did. Nazis aren't running around killing Jews anymore not because we defeated their ideology, but because we fucking killed a mother load of them during WWII and now they're too chickenshit to start another movement because they know what we're capable of.

ISIS needs to be shown how far the free world is willing to go to send a message that tells these terrorist fucks to fuck off and don't fucking mess with us because we don't play nice.

Death doesn't scare or deter militant religious extremists in the slightest.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Death doesn't scare or deter militant religious extremists in the slightest.

That's OK, the point isn't to scare terrorists, the point is to kill them, there's no need to scare a terrorist corpse. We're not trying to preach to them or convert them, they just need to understand that if they try anything again there won't be many of them left.

 

[Blader]

That's OK, the point isn't to scare, the point is to kill, there's no need to scare a corpse.

Your whole argument is that killing them en masse would beat down their ideology and deter them from continuing any further. It doesn't. It just emboldens them.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Your whole argument is that killing them en masse would beat down their ideology and deter them from continuing any further. It doesn't. It just emboldens them.

Then they'll be dead. The goal isn't to change their ideology, the goal is to let them understand the heavy price of waging jihad against the western world, they'll have to decide whether they want to keep going even if it means annihilation.

 

[Spieler Eins]

What did you think we did with the Germans before we did all that? We killed Nazis and decimated Germany, that is why the Germans will never turn to Nazism ever again, the price of Nazism is too high for the German people to bear, the lesson was learned.

The west sure has shown the Islam what we've got during the crusades. And then during the iberian reconquista. They sure ain't ever coming back. But eh, what does the past concern me. We got Osama, this has finally ended it, right?

I'm also glad that the defeat of Nazi Germany has erased extreme racism from this planet forever. Everything is so simple with the cartoonish world view of a 12 year old.

 

[Sibylus]

What did you think we did with the Germans before we did all that? We killed Nazis and decimated Germany, that is why the Germans will never turn to Nazism ever again, the price of Nazism is too high for the German people to bear, the lesson was learned.

Now we're onto before, where your bogus analysis once again seemingly has no place for the Treaty of Versailles, depressed economic outlooks, interwar strife and terrorism between communists, fascists, and democrats, ethnic conflict, ineffectual checks and balances... all reasons the Nazis filled a power vacuum to begin with. You can't fill the vacuum with death and expect nothing or no one to occupy it later. The Western Allies filled that vacuum with their own alternatives to militaristic fascism, with the Soviet version proving a lot less lasting over the long term.

America did try your strategy later on, it should be noted. In Vietnam.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Somehow a half century of occupation, engagement with Germans, rebuilding of Germany's infrastructure, economy, and democracy, legal prosecution of Naziism and their proponents, reparations, and reintegration into the wider European sphere didn't make it into your bogus analysis.

Weird.

It is a bad comparison but the difference in treatment you're raising is not so important. The US rebuilt infrastructure and injected money into reconstructions in Iraqistan, the difference mainly is that the Germans and Japanese did not offer meaningful resistance to the occupation after the official surrenders. Conflicts fought in the "classic style" where the defeated country rolls over and takes it can't be fairly compared to an ongoing occupation against guerilla forces. The German occupation of Poland, Yugoslavia and the USSR is probably a much better comparison from that period. The Peninsula war where the term Guerilla warfare was invented is another older European comparison better suited, Napoleon's Spanish Ulcer. Go back further to the 30 Years War to see European religious violence drag the continent into decades of violent spasms fueled by religious fervor.

The best way to defeat an ideology in theory is to discredit it, but that's not exactly simple with something like this. At this point I am starting to think that utterly demolishing ISIS' territorial gains with military force might make things better than they are on this front since their success in recruiting is at least partially connected with their success capturing and holding territory in the face of both secular dictators and western intervention. But it's complicated and uncertain.

 

[Blader]

Then they'll be dead. The goal isn't to change their ideology, the goal is to let them understand the heavy price of waging jihad against the western world, they'll have to decide whether they want to keep going even if it means annihilation.

What part of this do you not understand? Killing them doesn't stop them in any way; it reinforces and validates their reason for fighting, it radicalizes and recruits new members to their ranks. You can't make annihilation a source of deterrence for a group of people whose end goal is annihilation.

 

[ElTorro]

We can't kill Nazism, but we can kill Nazis, and we did. Nazis aren't running around killing Jews anymore not because we defeated their ideology, but because we fucking killed a mother load of them during WWII and now they're too chickenshit to start another movement because they know what we're capable of.

lol

/edit: I don't want to leave it just at that. You might want to read up on what actually happened in post-war Germany. Claiming that the Nazis are not showing up anymore because they are afraid of the Western military power is incredibly ignorant. Here are some starting points:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergangenheitsbewältigung
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany_(1945&#8211;90)

 

[Sibylus]

It is a bad comparison but the difference in treatment you're raising is not so important. The US rebuilt infrastructure and injected money into reconstructions in Iraqistan, the difference mainly is that the Germans and Japanese did not offer meaningful resistance to the occupation after the official surrenders. Conflicts fought in the "classic style" where the defeated country rolls over and takes it can't be fairly compared to an ongoing occupation against guerilla forces. The German occupation of Poland, Yugoslavia and the USSR is probably a much better comparison from that period. The Peninsula war where the term Guerilla warfare was invented is another older European comparison better suited, Napoleon's Spanish Ulcer. Go back further to the 30 Years War to see European religious violence drag the continent into decades of violent spasms fueled by religious fervor.

The best way to defeat an ideology in theory is to discredit it, but that's not exactly simple with something like this. At this point I am starting to think that utterly demolishing ISIS' territorial gains with military force might make things better than they are on this front since their success in recruiting is at least partially connected with their success capturing and holding territory in the face of both secular dictators and western intervention. But it's complicated and uncertain.

These are certainly important differences to take into account. So too the US trying to do in a decade what was accomplished before in a span five times as long.

The point is that while military setbacks are important, they aren't a total solution. You need to replace and not merely displace.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Space Needle in Seattle will be flying the French flag at half-staff through Monday evening. http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattles-french-community-gathers-in-solidarity/

 

[ProfessorMoran]

The west sure has shown the Islam what we've got during the crusades. And then during the iberian reconquista. They sure ain't ever coming back. But eh, what does the past concern me. We got Osama, this has finally ended it, right?

I'm also glad that the defeat of Nazi Germany has erased extreme racism from this planet forever. Everything is so simple with the cartoonish world view of a 12 year old.

They're coming for you, these people want to enslave your mother, wife, sister and daughter, they want to indoctrinate your brothers and your sons, and are willing to kill you if you don't submit.

What do you propose we do? You can leave them alone but they'll come to your country to pursue their worldwide caliphate, they're eager to terrorize your fellow citizens through extreme violence.

 

[nilbog21]

We can't kill Nazism, but we can kill Nazis, and we did. Nazis aren't running around killing Jews anymore not because we defeated their ideology, but because we fucking killed a mother load of them during WWII and now they're too chickenshit to start another movement because they know what we're capable of.

ISIS needs to be shown how far the free world is willing to go to send a message that tells these terrorist fucks to fuck off and don't fucking mess with us because we don't play nice.

What? Comparing ISIS to nazism? Is this a serious post?

 

[Orayn]

ProfessorMoran, what is your proposed method of finding all the bad guys and killing them? Keep in mind that any missteps in this process (i.e. civilian casualties, trying to take over counties, forcibly changing peoples' culture, generally screwing things up) will only make the problem far worse.

Let's hear it, bud.

 

[onken]

Your whole argument is that killing them en masse would beat down their ideology and deter them from continuing any further. It doesn't. It just emboldens them.

You are giving them too much credit. These aren't robots we're dealing with. It's a group of warped, scared human beings, and their will can be broken.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

ProfessorMoran, what is your proposed method of finding all the bad guys and killing them? Keep in mind that any missteps in this process (i.e. civilian casualties, trying to take over counties, forcibly changing peoples' culture, generally screwing things up) will only make the problem far worse.

Let's hear it, bud.

Any military campaign will realistically have civilian casualties, you're not targeting civilians and you shouldn't be targeting civilians, but potential civilian casualties should never deter you from military action if it's the only real option to defend your citizens.

 

[TheRealTalker]

Not sure if posted

However, a U.S. intelligence official told CBS News the Syrian passport might be fake. The official said the passport did not contain the correct numbers for a legitimate Syrian passport and the picture did not match the name.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-attacks-teams-extremists-france-prosecutor/

 

[Orayn]

Any military campaign will realistically have civilian casualties, you're not targeting civilians and you shouldn't be targeting civilians, but potential civilian casualties should never deter you from military action if it's the only real option to defend your citizens.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Clockwork5]

Well, a bunch of other countries share part of the blame, but yeah.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/18/fivefold-increase-terrorism-fatalities-global-index

Just...bad all around.

It only increased in the middle eastern nations (with Nigeria grouped in with them)

 

[zsynqx]

How nervous are people at the possibility of Trump getting elected and how he may deal with the Syrian crisis? I guess I was still in this bubble, thinking it was all a laugh and that people knew he was unelectable. However, seeing the large-scale support he is getting across social media after the attacks, has really started to worry me. Ultimately, there are still checks and balances etc, so the President can't run around doing whatever crazy things he wants, but it is still a scary prospect. I really don't think Trump is the man to get us out of this situation.

 

[Clockwork5]

How nervous at the possibility of Trump getting elected and how he may deal with the Syrian crisis? I guess I was still in this bubble, thinking it was all a laugh and that people knew he was unelectable. However, seeing the large-scale support he is getting across social media after the attacks, has really started to worry me. Ultimately, there are still checks and balances etc, so the President can't run around doing whatever crazy things he wants, but it is still a scary prospect. I really don't think Trump is the man to get us out of this situation.

The power of executive order has been greatly increased during the current administration. So checks and balances are weaker than ever

 

[ProfessorMoran]

You didn't answer my question.

Combination of airstrikes and ground troops, ground intelligence, mortars, precision bombing, tanks, you can't win a war with drone strikes, target ISIS and Taliban, take out all infrastructures, take out all their petroleum facilities, then leave, no nation building.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

How nervous at the possibility of Trump getting elected and how he may deal with the Syrian crisis? I guess I was still in this bubble, thinking it was all a laugh and that people knew he was unelectable. However, seeing the large-scale support he is getting across social media after the attacks, has really started to worry me. Ultimately, there are still checks and balances etc, so the President can't run around doing whatever crazy things he wants, but it is still a scary prospect. I really don't think Trump is the man to get us out of this situation.

The presidential role with fewer checks than any other role is foreign policy right now, so.... Trump could make an especially bad impact there.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

The power of executive order has been greatly increased during the current administration. So checks and balances are weaker than ever

No it hasn't

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/orders.php

 

[zsynqx]

The presidential role with fewer checks than any other role is foreign policy right now, so.... Trump could make an especially bad impact there.

The power of executive order has been greatly increased during the current administration. So checks and balances are weaker than ever

Well now I feel 10 times worse.