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Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.
- Thread starter chadskin
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Corronchilejano
Member
Worked wonders for the war on terror.
Kibbles
Member
Didn't know Josh Homme was in it.
Obama is doing things a bit differently. Note that he avoids EOs by handing out Presidential Memoranda and other similar directives which for all intents and purposes are the same as EOs.
I believe there are some articles regarding this from 2014.
Your link specifically states:
A redditor translated the thoughts of a Parisian that was trapped in the Bataclan Theatre during the attack: https://np.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/3suexn/the_arrival_of_terrorists_in_bataclan_theatre/cx0njfh?context=3
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
They all caused it but Versailles and WWI were only very indirect causes. They gave context to what happened but there were so many ways it could have gone other than winding up with Hitler and the Nazis in charge, and their rise to power was contingent on things well out of their control. Without the loss of WWI Hitler's party doesn't exist, but without the '29 Wall Street Crash the Nazis won't get close enough to smell political power through a walkie talkie. Even with both Versailles and the crash, the Nazis still weren't guaranteed victory. The KDP + SPD could have formed a coalition government against them since the Nazis lacked a majority. They chose not to, because the Communists refused to cooperate with filthy "moderates". Hitler was handed power at this critical moment with his appointment as Chancellor and the appointment of several other Nazis into prominent positions (at his insistence) where they could have major influence over police and interior services. After here the NSDAP heavies had free reign to intimidate and inflict violence on their opponents, disseminate propaganda and so on. The party gets an increase in votes, forms a minor coalition and then basically votes democracy away in some highly dubious legislation.
I should also point out that issues like Reparations were by the time of the Nazis rise to power already settled in reasonable ways with the US mediating and helping to renegotiate. The Weimar republic had begun rearming beyond the limits of Versailles in the late 1920s in secret. Actual revisions of the treaty were a somewhat likely outcome in the not too distant future. Without coming to power in '33, it's really hard to see a long term future for the party except on the political fringes. I've seen people try to connect the rise of Fascism to the rise of ISIS in the wake of the ME conflicts, but imo it holds up very poorly as a meaningful comparison. The US did stay around for a while and it did help rebuild Iraq in the image of an idealized democratic state. Reality on the ground was not as rosy as it should have been in theory, to say the least. But there was no German AQ, no German ISIS, no ongoing religious conflicts that WWI existed inside of. The things a clusterfuck and I have a lot of trouble wrapping my head around the full extent of it.
Feels more like a redditor used Google translate. Still, horrifying.
Thanks.
What a c*** though... the damage it would have caused if he was allowed in.
not psycho
Member
Part of the problem, though, is that there is genuine disagreement over what constitutes Islamophobia.
Is a cartoon, or a suggestion that Islam is a factor in making it easier for a group like ISIS to exist, or negative historical views of Muhammad, or criticism of treatment of women in Islamic communities, enough to push a rational, moderate person into joining a murderous death cult?
So far at least 20,000 foreigners have gone to join ISIS in Iraq and Syria. 5000 Europeans, 1550 of them from France.
You have young European men and women willingly going to join an evil group known for murder, rape, kidnapping and sex slavery. And that's only the ones who traveled there, not the ones who sympathize but stay home.
According to a Pew Poll 19% of French Muslims ages 18-29 believe suicide bombing civilian targets is often/sometimes justified. 23% said "rarely justified" and 57% said "never justified."
From the same poll, 46% of French Muslims do not believe Arabs carried out the 9/11 attacks, compared to 48% who do. Only 15% of Muslims in Pakistan said Arabs carried out the attacks.
Statistics like these may better inform us on how ISIS recruits. If a significant number of Muslims believe in conspiracy theories that could make them more susceptible to radicalization. It could also make them vulnerable to being told that negative stories about ISIS are conspiracies as well. Islamophobia is real, and dangerous, but I don't think that means we should ignore potentially important knowledge. It's a difficult balancing act.
AngryNapkin
Banned
And how exactly do you explain the explosion in recruitment for radical Islam, terrorist attacks, etc since 9/11.
The only way to deal with it using your resolve is to literally mass murder hundreds of millions of Muslims to the brink of extinction. Expel all of them from every nation and Hurd the rest up somewhere in the Artic.
I have been crying nonstop since listening to this detailed account from Bataclan survivor.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0382kkr
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0382kkr
I said god damn...
Elfforkusu
Member
re: things about Nazis
It's a little bit tricky to compare post-WW1 to other situations. WW1 erased a generation of people in France, Germany, and the British commonweaths. It exhausted most of those countries' resources and wealth. The winners (Britain, France) short-sightedly took what they could from the losers, in large part to try to make up for the immense toll they'd paid to win.
But Germany had paid that same toll to lose. And then the reparations on top of it. It wasn't just the treaty. It was the treaty and the most horrific war that had ever been fought. And the survivors of the first one were in charge of the next one!
There is probably a case to be made that you need something as horrifying as WWI battlefields to give rise to something as horrifying as the Nazi party.
Yeah.
It's a little bit tricky to compare post-WW1 to other situations. WW1 erased a generation of people in France, Germany, and the British commonweaths. It exhausted most of those countries' resources and wealth. The winners (Britain, France) short-sightedly took what they could from the losers, in large part to try to make up for the immense toll they'd paid to win.
But Germany had paid that same toll to lose. And then the reparations on top of it. It wasn't just the treaty. It was the treaty and the most horrific war that had ever been fought. And the survivors of the first one were in charge of the next one!
There is probably a case to be made that you need something as horrifying as WWI battlefields to give rise to something as horrifying as the Nazi party.
cpp_is_king
Member
A good friend of mine is in Paris right now with his wife and 2 year old kid, his hotel is a block from the Bataclan. Turns out he was visiting a friend on the outskirts of Paris on the night of the attack. Fate is so fucked up.
Has this been posted yet? http://www.bfmtv.com/societe/de-ret...ns-une-salle-de-concert-en-france-915769.html
Article from September about two French terrorists caught after coming back from Syria, who both mentioned being asked in Syria to target French concert halls.
I'm disgusted. My best friend goes to concerts in Paris every week, I'm scared for him
Article from September about two French terrorists caught after coming back from Syria, who both mentioned being asked in Syria to target French concert halls.
I'm disgusted. My best friend goes to concerts in Paris every week, I'm scared for him
hydragonwarrior
Member
Religion should not be associated at all with ISIS at this point. They could be any religion - the goal is to get rid of these guys who are using violence as their means to communicate.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
So what's going on with the identities of the attackers? I heard they identified one guy by name and he was French. Are they still claiming one was a refugee?
https://twitter.com/itele/status/665801176580022276
AFP cites police sources that a car used in the attack on Friday has been found in Montreuil, meaning a group of attackers is still on the loose.
cpp_is_king
Member
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/14/world/paris-attacks/index.html
says
So could be the same car for all we know, and he's not still on the loose. That said, there was almost certainly more people involved in orchestrating this than just the shooters. So in that sense, there's most definitely still people on the loose.
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
No they couldn't be. What kind of world do you live in to believe that?
It's a Seat that was found, one apparently in connection with "the shooting of the rue de la-Fontaine-au-Roi (5 killed) & of the rue de Chaconne (19 killed)".
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I'm sure there's plenty of psychos who murder people every day that are atheist. ISIS twist and use religion to their own ends - Islam doesn't cause this.
That's the car that was used to get to the restaurants and bars. Hope they find him/them.
The only identity that's been confirmed so far is the french one who blew himself up in the Bataclan. Two are rumored to have passed through Greece as refugees but no confirmation yet.
People act like the payments demanded of the Versailles treaty were particularly brutal, they weren't. Had the German government not decided printing money and borrowing was a better idea than raising taxes to pay for the war, and decided after the war not to pay off the reparations by borrowing, no such situation would have arisen. Of course Germany was betting from the start on themselves being able to extract vast payments from the Entente powers to pay for the war.
Decimating Germany? A bit odd given that it was Northern France and Belgium that were completely devastated, not Germany. The humiliation of losing territory is also criticized by people, but it was far less of a humiliation than the settlement Germany imposed on Russia in 1917. That settlement was completely outrageous.
So when ISIS mentioned "eight brothers wearing explosive belts and carrying assault rifles", that was just to confuse the authorities then. They were more than that..
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...eleases-undated-video-threatening-France.html
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...eleases-undated-video-threatening-France.html
hydragonwarrior
Member
My point is that whatever beliefs they have is not important at this point. No nation would want them and no religion would want them either. They've dug their own grave and so this is a call to not get rid of a religious extremist group, but just a group of people called ISIS.
I want this because I don't want this war to be associated with those of Muslim faith - this should be a war against those who belong to a group called ISIS.
Nobody is saying Islam is the CAUSE, but you kind of definitively need to subscribe to that theology to be a member of ISIS.
No shit there could also be like, an atheist terrorist group doing this shit in some alternate reality, but there isn't - this is our reality and we can pretty easily see the links there, the groups claim them themselves.
I agree with the poster above: You cannot persecute anyone who follows an islamic religion, but you would be downright foolish to pretend that there is no connection at all just to avoid the appearance of islamophobia.
Only 7 of them have been killed and I don't think anyone's been arrested so maybe not. Wouldn't be surprised if they were talking out of their ass though.
Couldn't they've just claimed responsibility despite it being an autonomous group as well? That would explain if they got facts wrong.
Their beliefs is important. ISIS is a religious extremist group, fueled by the teachings of Quran. Why should we pretend that is not so? As posted by not psycho in the previous page, Islam fundamentalism is a problem.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
So , just curios. If they are the isis is the case what is really stopping from a more broad and heavy bombing attack on their main grounds?
Are they basically mixed in with the people in the country and it's too hard to pinpoint who is isis and who isn't?
I would imagine a lot of people who aren't a part of the group is trying to get out of there. Seems like I'm always lost in these things as there is never any clear answers out there for me.
Are they basically mixed in with the people in the country and it's too hard to pinpoint who is isis and who isn't?
I would imagine a lot of people who aren't a part of the group is trying to get out of there. Seems like I'm always lost in these things as there is never any clear answers out there for me.
Pretty sure 8 of them are dead. 7 with suicide belts, and 1 from gunshots.
damn the right-winged nationalists are having a field day here in Denmark. One of the spokespersons actually went out and said that we have to bomb everyone, including civilians, women, and children. I couldn't believe what I was hearing on national television.
The same party is the second-largest party now after the last election back in May, by the way. Denmark is super scary to be in right now because of the racism. You should see the facebook wall of a Turkish Muslim politician (and she's seriously the nicest person ever) - it's completely insane.
Meanwhile the "moderate" party are using Bush-era rhetoric with "dark powers", "hate our freedom", and bullshit fairy tales narratives.
The same party is the second-largest party now after the last election back in May, by the way. Denmark is super scary to be in right now because of the racism. You should see the facebook wall of a Turkish Muslim politician (and she's seriously the nicest person ever) - it's completely insane.
Meanwhile the "moderate" party are using Bush-era rhetoric with "dark powers", "hate our freedom", and bullshit fairy tales narratives.
These a some bite sized videos that should give you a basic understanding of ISIS and their role in Syria.
A brief history of ISIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ034SvB16E
War in Syria
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKb9GVU8bHE
HerbertBirdsfoot
Member
Yeah it's not good to stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't have to do with religious belief because it totally does.
Also it's not like terrible violence by atheists is some hypothetical. Look at the Big Three monsters of the 20th century: Stalin, Mao, hitler. 2 out of 3 atheist and the other one motivated by race and nationalism not religion.
But religion is central with the terrorist groups we are dealing with. It is hard for us to deal with because tolerance and pluralism are a big part of who we are. But you can't ignore it.
In terms of bombing targets, exactly. Even if ISIS marches in and says 'this city is ours now, this city is an ISIS stronghold' - what does that mean exactly? Civilians are still civilians, no matter who claims to control the city. Bombing cities into submission is a military idea rooted in the concept of a united nation-state that exerts control (and conversely responsibility) over all citizens it claims under its dominion.
That's without even getting into the problems that bombings will leave behind survivors, relatives, friends, networks - even if the targets are 'legitimate', their families that will suffer may not necessarily be predisposed to helping ISIS, but it's fairly natural that they wouldn't exactly be predisposed to looking favourably upon the Western nations that authorised military attacks either.
ProfessorMoran
Member
Regular muslims aren't those who associate themselves with ISIS, and those who do decide to join aren't exactly peaceful and innocent, nobody is suggesting that we nuke them or carpet bomb their civilian population. You're going after people who decide to join and fight for ISIS, the same people who are enslaving women and decapitating those they call infidels, whether you would like to accept it or not we're at war with them, they're basically a terrorist state, and either we take them out or they expand their terrorist operations against us.
Some definitely are straight up evil. They're usually the ones in charge, but they don't seem to be in the majority. If I want to go with the flow and compare this all to Nazi Germany, not every Nazi was evil, and that became obvious when all those evil motherfuckers at the top were either killed or put in jail. Unfortunately that's harder to do with ISIS because the conditions that gave rise to both leaders and followers still exist. If we attacked the conditions and not the people there would be no one for these bastards to send on suicide raids. Their power is largerly based on the reinforcement of fear and alienation that western nations put on muslims, particularly foreigners. They exploit this need to belong and turn it into something they present as righteous. We know that's bullshit, but some people are in such desperate situations they have no choice but to believe until western nations actually provide an alternative. Instead, they launch airstrikes that kill innocent people along with militants, and make ISIS's message stronger.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Actually I think separating them from religion is one of the better things that you can do.
At this point I don't know if they are purposefully twisting Islam, or whether they've actually managed to convince themselves they're good Muslims, but for the world, including the Muslim community, to say that you do not represent them, that your representation of the Quran is disgusting, and that their actions are tantamount to heresy, belittles them and their credibility.
We need to physically fight them, and eliminate them, but we also need to win psychologically by mocking them and have them realise that the entire world thinks they're full of complete bullshit.
protonion
Member
Just saw this. The tickets of the two bombers that went through Leros. You can see their names. Their passports (don't know if real or fake) where also checked at Croatia and Austria.
http://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/527310/to-protothema-parousiazei-ta-onomata-kai-ta-eisitiria-me-ta-opoia-oi-kamikazi-taxidepsan-kalumno-peiraia/
http://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/527310/to-protothema-parousiazei-ta-onomata-kai-ta-eisitiria-me-ta-opoia-oi-kamikazi-taxidepsan-kalumno-peiraia/
MisterFalcon
Member
The only solution would be to get the people who would rise against the ones who defeat ISIS to take out ISIS itself. Apparently those people don't have any problems with ISIS killing 10.000 who are from a different group but will rise up to avenge ISIS and form ISIS2 against the foreign power who kill 100 of their own group.
I can see no other way of achieving that other then threatening the entire group with annihilation so that getting rid of ISIS becomes a necessity for survival.
How do you explain a large part of ISIS fighters being European second-generation muslims who have relatively high quality of living? Nobody forced them to board a plane to a war zone and commit atrocities. They did so at their own behest, leaving a safe and comfortable lifestyle behind. And if we are to take a pacifist approach to ISIS, how do you propose we keep non-ISIS territories in Syria and Iraq safe?
TheDrizzlerJ11
Member
When you think about it. It's pretty amazing we still let Germany exist as it does today. They are the only nation to attempt going to war with the entire world.... twice
Notsureifserious.jpeg
Please tell me you aren't being serious. I know irony doesn't come across that well online but still.
TheDrizzlerJ11
Member
The prosecutor, which is just about the most viable source on this, mentionned 7 of them. Most trustworthy news channels have updated their number since then.
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