Xenoflare
Member
Yes, this is my overall feeling towards Q as well, Arena and Ultimax should never have been canon in the first place.
Also, sorry if old, but I died of laugh when I first saw this.
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Persona Community Thread |OT6| Where 6 Comes Before 5 (No PQ or P4U spoilers!)
- Thread starter Dantis
- Start date
Yes, this is my overall feeling towards Q as well, Arena and Ultimax should never have been canon in the first place.
Also, sorry if old, but I died of laugh when I first saw this.
My Thanksgiving was more than a month ago.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Once in a while, I consider booting the arena games into my mental abyss of 'non-canon'. Then I remember Labrys and I begrudgingly pull them back up.
Dammit, Labrys...
Oh yeah, her too.
Don't even dare suggest that! That would have rid us of two of the best characters to be introduced to Persona yet!
Labrys and Kikuno
Canon Ken.
Sure, though we know they technically would have existed without Arena.
I don't think the quality of the writing between PQ and P4A(U) can really be compared due to the genre discrepancy. An RPG is more suited towards that, while the story of a fighting game is less so. It'll be interesting to see how the story is in P4D.
Sure, though we know they technically would have existed without Arena.
I don't think the quality of the writing between PQ and P4A(U) can really be compared due to the genre discrepancy. An RPG is more suited towards that, while the story of a fighting game is less so. It'll be interesting to see how the story is in P4D.
Yeah, after I said that I remembered they both existed in the drama CDs to begin with. I doubt Labrys would have had the personality she has without the Arena games tho. But Kikuno was totally awesome in the drama CDs.
I honestly don't have much of a problem with Arena and Ultimax's writing anyhow. Sure, Persona Q is way better, but the high points of Arena and Ultimax are still on par with what they wrote before. And yeah, as you noted, it's a given that there are going to be dispensaries due to it being a fighting game. I think the issues with Arena/Ultimax actually comes from trying to force the story structure of what ArcSys typically writes onto a Persona game. They're not terribly similar.
A Dead Diehard
Member
I personally don't think that's true. In fact, you'd think that something as comparatively short as a fighting game story wouldn't strain the writers.
Characters only fighting one-on-one isn't really an issue people have with the games' story, is it? Cause if I remember right, the problem people take with it is that the characters are reduced to caricatures.
Is that a side-effect of a shorter story? Regression?
Wow, don't know what's better, the video or the comments.
I think I'll roll with following party once I can start playing PQ next week.
Front: P3MC/Shinji/Akihiko
Back: Aigis/Yukiko
Makoto/Yu/Chie
Yukari/Aigis
so far.
Make sure you use both Yu and Makoto. Trust me.
I'll spoiler the reason, if it has a plot reason idk it, heres the gameplay reason.
If you get them both to 55 I think, you can do a quest to get their true personas, which is KIND OF important.
It's a fighting game. The genre itself makes it so that the writing can't be as intricate as an RPG because you're playing a fighting game, not a visual novel. The very structure of the storytelling and narrative is intrinsically attached to its genre, while an RPG can be immensely more flexible due to its inherent nature.
It's not dependent on length of the story, it's dependent on how it's told. There can't be in-depth character moments in P4A(U), outside of select chapters which focus on a specific character's background (e.g. Labrys and [Redacted]), because it's a fighting game. What people take issue with are character interactions and reducing them to shallow versions of their original selves, but that isn't something that can be quite helped when the focus is to convey 1-on-1 fighting at a decent pace (because it's a fighting game), trying to string together reasons as to why those fights are taking place at all.
There can't be as much downtime and the time taken to flesh out each individual character because Arena isn't like PQ where those moments can be tied together with gameplay, the natural progression through a dungeon or through Strolls with optional scenes. A fighting game story doesn't permit for downtime like that unless, again, they're just straight up going to make it a visual novel where the text-to-battle ratio would be even more significant.
The quality of P4A(U)'s writing could be better, but the difference in genres is absolutely a factor, especially when you consider the priorities of a quality story in a fighting game relative to the same for an RPG.
Ugh, that's a bummer. Choosing your party never felt this hard ...
A Dead Diehard
Member
There's no need to develop characters that are already developed. But it would be nice if they stayed at the point they had developed to. As for needing to have fights dispersed frequently enough, Labrys and [Redacted]'s chapters pretty much prove that's not an issue. Story mode is for story foremost. If players just wanted some fluff in between matches, they'd pick Arcade mode, wouldn't they?
Neither of these. You'll notice that none of the Persona 3 cast members are reduced to mere caricatures. Except perhaps Akihiko in Chie's joke ending but again that's the problem with trying to force ArcSys's story structure on a series that never had joke endings like that before.
The biggest problem with Persona 4 Arena is that it's trying to continue off Persona 4, and Persona 4 was the most self-contained entry in the franchise. Almost nothing connects it with previous installments. You have the Igor, the Velvet Room, a few funny cameos, Margaret's sidequest in New Game Plus mode, and that's about it. Most of those are elements that appear in every installment. To make matters worse, the true ending basically wraps everything up. No questions are left unanswered and nothing about the particular story is still open. Persona 4 Golden even went a step further with it's bonus epilogue. This isn't bad in regards to Persona 4 itself; it's a murder mystery, and it wouldn't be very interesting or well written if details were left hanging, would it?
This however presents them a problem with Persona 4 Arena and Ultimax. They have nowhere they can go without compromising on the true ending to Persona 4. This is why we have Yukiko's story mode in the first game being absolutely boring, and why Kanji does practically nothing in either game. And then you throw the fighting game story structure on top of it, effectively enforcing that the story MUST focus on a character to some degree. Otherwise, there's no reason to play as that character. There's just not a whole lot of room to write stuff, really.
On the flipside, Persona 3's story is absolutely loaded with details. It's continuing off a major plotline started in the first Persona, the ending doesn't answer all the questions (hence why we got FES in the first place), and there were incredible amounts side stuff they didn't even use. This shows too: The entire plotline of the first Arena game is basically continuing off the stories started in in the drama CDs. Ultimax is no slouch either here; Several side characters from Persona 3 return or are re-introduced in new roles. They didn't even run out of stuff to work with either. Yuichiro Tanaka teases the possibility of seeing a sixth generation Anti Shadow Weapon in the first Arena artbook. Not to mention the plotline with Elizabeth, which they seem to want to continue on for the foreseeable future.
Put simply, the writers wrote themselves into a corner with the Persona 4 cast. I don't think they intended the game to get as popular as it did. Unfortunately, this means they little room to work with. Add the genre change on top that Flux went into significant detail over above... and yeah. It's a wonder the story is as good as it is.
If Labrys's story and [Redacted]'s story were the entire game, the gameplay would get boring real fast. If you wanna see a fantastic case of this in action, go play the original Melty Blood story mode to the end. The one fight in Labrys's story mode only exists just as a warmup after having gone through an hour or more of story without any gameplay at all.
For the first point, even though we know who the characters are prior to P4A(U), they need to stand-alone in the game itself as a spin-off (just like PQ and P4D will be), even though it's touted as a sequel. So that people who aren't familiar with P3 and/or P4 have a point of reference to associate the characters with, their personalities are condensed into surface level essentials, turning many of them in P4A into flat versions of what they were before. They can't just stay at the point we know them in P4A and have a story told without any clear demarcation between how the characters behave, so that was the result of it.
No, story mode in a fighting game isn't just for story. The people who would complain about the lack of fighting in the story mode if that were to occurif all chapters were essentially like Labrys' and [Redacted]'swould be in the majority (and there are already plenty of people who complain that there isn't enough fighting in P4A and P4AU's story modes). It's to convey the game's story, but also through implementation of... the fighting game. Arcade mode is arcade mode, there's barely any story in it and its just completely different from what a typical ASW story mode sets out to do.
A Dead Diehard
Member
So now I'm curious.
What possessed Atlus to come up with a Persona fighting game in the first place?
It seems like an uphill battle to adapt a self-contained RPG to a fighting game, so where did the idea come from?
What possessed Atlus to come up with a Persona fighting game in the first place?
It seems like an uphill battle to adapt a self-contained RPG to a fighting game, so where did the idea come from?
It's all in P4A's art book interview. Atlus were fans of ASW's work, ASW staff were fans of Persona, P Studio wanted a way to represent Soejima's art in 2D animation and P Studio wanted a serious fighting game. Clearly, given the series' success, the fans wanted a fighting game based on the Persona IP as well. Best of both worlds.
Not really? They clearly did an excellent job of translating each individual character's fighting style and Personas to the actual gameplay (with certain exceptions people have like Teddie).
UltraGunner
Banned
Not to mention these kind of collaborations and spinoff games are hardly unusual for either company.
Petrock123
Member
I should probably play ultimax/watch entirety of all the routes before judging exactly how bad it is, but I don't think the arena games's stories are that terrible. For example, I had to ask someone who's more into fighting games if a storyline really even existed for Street Fighter since there was no real story mode in SSF4 (which I played a tiny bit). I don't think uMvC3 really has a story, though the reason might be that it's a cross over game. But at least I know what's going on in the arena game stories and they exist. I didn't play a ton of fighting games, but I think it's just that, for some reason, it seems that fighting games in general are know for having worse stories to them. But even then there were some occasional moments in the arena games that were pretty good, in my opinion.
Characters fighting one on one may have affected the original Arena story since they had to take the fighters, who are mostly allies trying to accomplish the same goal, and get them to fight each other for some reason. Combined with the story structure, the fact that you had to play the story multiple times with no real 'canon' route and rewatch the story again and again could be annoying. I think this was better in Ultimax since shadow characters replace the need to make up some reason to get best friends to fight.
Can't really say more for the caricatures, though from what I've seen in Arena's Yukiko seemed kinda bad, Kanji too. In P4U I don't think they're quite as bad though? Not sure why they ended up like that in the first place though. Maybe being a spin-off game taking place after the main stories might affect that? I don't know.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Now THAT is true. The gameplay of the Arena games is amazing, even as someone who can barely handle fighting games.
I DON'T NEED ANYONE ELSE!
I HAVE...
Well, that's the thing. I'd imagine most people got the Arena games mainly for the gameplay, rather than just to experience the story. That must have at least been the case after P4A, after the novelty of a Persona fighting game wore off.
Petrock123
Member
It's rather sad that it took me so long to get what was being referred to. Should probably beat RE5 sometime, but I haven't played it in a couple of years and only got a couple chapters in before stopping.
Edit:
But then there's that super interesting cliffhanger/loose ends in the original P4A which would convince tons of people to buy the sequel
They're not. Admittedly the P4 storyline isn't the best, but the P3 and DLC storylines are fantastic. You get people like Dantis who exaggerate each and every flaw, but the reality is for a spin-off the title, the stories are pretty consistent in quality for both companies. The P3 side has quite a few highlights too, of which I will not mention here but I'm sure Flux knows of the particular one-scene wonder that I'm talking about.
Petrock123
Member
They're not. Admittedly the P4 storyline isn't the best, but the P3 and DLC storylines are fantastic. You get people like Dantis who exaggerate each and every flaw, but the reality is for a spin-off the title, the stories are pretty consistent in quality for both companies. The P3 side has quite a few highlights too, of which I will not mention here but I'm sure Flux knows of the particular one-scene wonder that I'm talking about.
Does the scene feature Labrys? If so then I think I watched it recently, and hearing the summary at first I thought it would have been bad, but after watching I thought it actually was pretty good. Only other one might feature shadow Aigis? That I haven't watched though. If not then I have absolutely no idea.
The DLC storyline, I liked. Didn't watch the entirety of the P3 or P4 stories, but I think that I've heard from many that in both the original Arena and Ultimax that P3's was superior. Someone here said it should have been more like P3 Arena ft. P4 cast? I guess it's nice to see what happened with the P3 cast since the events of P3, while with the P4 cast we already know what happened recently and whats going to happen for the future in the case of Golden.
A Dead Diehard
Member
New fans with the new genre and old fans from the old game.
Both of them are valid audiences, but I'm pretty sure the latter were the ones with expectations.
Ah well... At least the actual gameplay is good for both.
The P3 side has quite a few highlights too, of which I will not mention here but I'm sure Flux knows of the particular one-scene wonder that I'm talking about.
...
*looks at avatar*
...
I'm completely stumped.
MINOR ULTIMAX SPOILERS, DON'T WHINE TO ME IF YOU CLICK THIS AND GET SPOILED:
The Shadow Labrys scene, not Aigis.
Sure, but you also have to understand that it's a fighting game, where gameplay is king. As Atlus delves more and experiments more with spin-off games, it'll be wiser to pick and choose the games one wants to get instead of simply getting them because they have the Persona name.
For example: Persona 4 Dancing. I'll be a seer for a sec and say that one probably shouldn't get that game just for the story, especially if they're not a fan of rhythm games.
Yep, absolutely loved that scene. It goes with what you were saying that, throughout the Arena series, the best moments are definitely associated with the Persona 3 characters and the Persona 3 story chapters instead of P4.
Chet Rippo
Member
The problem with Arena's story boils down to that it's a fighting game. It's got some of the most convoluted reasons to justify it being a fighting game.
I really wish Arena was one story with perspectives changing as it goes.
NOT THE SAME 2 STORIES 10X FROM DIFF PERSPECTIVES THAT ARE BASICALLY THE SAME.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Oh yeah. That was awesome.
Made her my #2 Persona villain after [redacted].
Should it have been story-less? I honestly don't know anymore.
Part of the reason why I love Mitsuru's story mode in the first Arena game. It's unquestionably my favorite story, even more so than the one for Aigis. We get to see what she was doing in the three years since Persona 3. They moved her story ahead without compromising on her character development of P3 and even followed up on it in a pretty natural way, and it's topped with what is perhaps one of the best scenes written in the franchise yet.
But one thing will be very different. Starting today... you are not alone.
Episode 10 of PSC's up. Apparently, they talk a little bit about PSL 2015, even though the episode was recorded 8 days before its announcement.
Well, no, because many of us enjoyed the story and it's a nice way to tie the game together contextually. Same reason P4D would probably be lesser without a story and the game just being dancing segments like Project Diva F.
Well, no, because many of us enjoyed the story and it's a nice way to tie the game together contextually. Same reason P4D would probably be lesser without a story and the game just being dancing segments like Project Diva F.
UltraGunner
Banned
It should have Just been Yu, someone from P3 (probably Aigis) and Liz just for fun. No reason to go through the same thing for every character.
The Answer had already done it better.
Green Mamba
Member
Arena should have been story-less or at the very least give it a nonsense story like Persona Q instead of trying to make it an honest to goodness sequel. As it is now, the cast is constrained by the story. They essentially traded complete roster carte blanche for a bad story, which seems like a pretty poor trade.
You mean in terms of playable characters? I personally don't think there's anything lacking in the roster.
It's not even necessarily a concession that had to be made - irregardless, it's a bad story.
My gripe with the Arena games is that they're clearly P3 stories in a P4 package, or at least the P3 story segments overshadowed any P4 segments. The Investigation Team was just there to give flanderized smiles and for Yu to knock out anything threatening with bonds. I still managed to get some enjoyment out of the stories but half the characters in the game do nothing important.
Whole story generally plays out like a drama CD though.
Whole story generally plays out like a drama CD though.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Let's not go crazy now...
It's been confirmed ever since the official P4 art book came out.
Honestly, the JRPG to Fighter conversion seems to be one of the easiest of the genre switch types. All characters are fleshed out with generally unique movesets and personalities. It's just a matter of adding in the normal punches and kicks in a style they would do and you're set.
Oh right.
Seems silly because,you know, anime.
And there was no mention of Naoto dying their hair either.
Reanimatoin
Member
I'm not sure it's ever been said that Naoto dyes her hair, granted blue isnt exactly a natural colour but still.
Pretty sure it's Chie who also has dyed hair in the P4 crew.
That's what I am getting at yeah. The colors never look out of place because it's a JRPG with anime designs.
Yes, it said Chie dyes it too.
According to the deisgn book for P4, Soejima said that Youske and Chie dye their hair.
Kanji, too.
It's less about the color and more about what it says about them and its relation to the themes of Persona 4.