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[Dantis]

I think I'm with him on this one.

That particular piece of dialogue is bad for enforcing negative stereotypes, but let's not blow it out of proportion. It's distasteful and dumb, but it's not deliberately malicious. I feel like, if you feel strongly enough about it, either don't buy the game or let the developers know how you feel.

There's a weird notion in games that nothing should offend anyone ever, but outside of games it often does. Shows like Scrubs feature scenes like that for longer times and way more frequently. Can you imagine them cutting out all of those scenes when moving the show to another country? It would seem crazy.

It all depends on the context. How the devs feel about the scene and how far it pushes things, alongside how many people it's going to upset. I think that scene won't inspire much of anything amongst the fanbase, honestly. When we start cutting and changing things, at a certain point you have to ask how important that thing was in the first place,

 

[Funyarinpa]

Wait, you

Spoiler

don't want them to tone down the blatant homophobia?

Personally, yes. I'm not saying that it's good or that it should have been there in the first place, but it should be kept so that it receives attention, is criticized, and gets called out so that Atlus becomes aware of where they're being offensive about that scene. (Don't spoil me further because I only looked up that scene due to earlier controversy and don't know anything else in the game pertaining to that subject.)

Not talking about fanservice, since I really don't expect P5 to overstep (m)any bounds on that regard.

Edit: Hell, without hearing the negative reaction to it beforehand I'd probably even find it dumb enough to laugh at it. I'd just rather not have a bit of dumb humor (which, I suppose, was the intent behind it instead of deliberate malice) if it means it personally offends a part of the fanbase.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

I'm under the impression that any disapproval on this side of the Pacific will never be loud enough to reach (never mind affect) them in Japan. But hey, no harm in trying.

 

[TurnipFritters]

hashino and pals were well aware of how negative people in the west reacted to kanji's treatment in persona 4 and yet here we are

lgbt rights have come a long way in Japan (and in America!) since persona 4 was released, so a lot of people were kinda hoping persona 5 would take a slightly better approach to those issues. yes, other video games and other forms of media still have a lot of homophobia/transphobia/etc but ~change begins with a single step~ by friends.

 

[Zolo]

I'm under the impression that any disapproval on this side of the Pacific will never be loud enough to reach (never mind affect) them in Japan. But hey, no harm in trying.

I think in #FE, they specifically stated they don't develop with other audiences in mind cause they figure it can make for boring games or something. I figure at worst, they assume anything particularly problematic can just be edited for localization.

 

[TurnipFritters]

also, as with the case of #FE and Every Localization ~Censorship Controversy~ Ever, if you don't like it you can just watch the original scenes on youtube where someone has uploaded it at 1080/60fps

 

[Deleted member 518609]

also, as with the case of #FE and Every Localization ~Censorship Controversy~ Ever, if you don't like it you can just watch the original scenes on youtube where someone has uploaded it at 1080/60fps

Or express your dislike for the changes since they're ridiculously asinine and disrespectful to the original devs, and not purchase the localization.
Sorry - but when I buy a game, I'm not buying it under the expectation that to get the faithful version of the product I should have to look online for footage.

 

[Weiss]

Or express your dislike for the changes since they're ridiculously asinine and disrespectful to the original devs, and not purchase the localization.
Sorry - but when I buy a game, I'm not buying it under the expectation that to get the faithful version of the product I should have to look online for footage.

I'm glad you think resentment over

Spoiler

limp wristed gay dudes trying to pick up high schoolers on a beach

is asinine.

Don't worry though. Atlus USA couldn't even be bothered to edit out Erica being treated as a fake girl trying to prey on helpless men, so you're gonna get your wish.

 

[Deleted member 518609]

I'm glad you think resentment over

Spoiler

limp wristed gay dudes trying to pick up high schoolers on a beach

is asinine.

Don't worry though. Atlus USA couldn't even be bothered to edit out Erica being treated as a fake girl trying to prey on helpless men, so you're gonna get your wish.

Excuse me? I was talking about the edits made to #FE, which I wouldn't describe as anything other than asinine.

And please don't put words in my mouth and accuse me of homophobia or transphobia for thinking a translation team should be doing exactly that: translating. I don't believe that taking someone else's work and editing it because you disagree with it or dislike it is acceptable. Critiquing it is absolutely fair ground, changing it isn't. Don't criticize the translator for doing their job properly.

 

[A Dead Diehard]

Excuse me? I was talking about the edits made to #FE, which I wouldn't describe as anything other than asinine.

And please don't put words in my mouth and accuse me of homophobia or transphobia for thinking a translation team should be doing exactly that: translating. I don't believe that taking someone else's work and editing it because you disagree with it or dislike it is acceptable. Critiquing it is absolutely fair ground, changing it isn't. Don't criticize the translator for doing their job properly.

Technically their job is "localizing" but that's splitting hairs...

Save your accusatory bile for the people who actually wrote the scene, not the nearest poster in arm's reach.

 

[Makio]

Sure some people get "touchy" for a pointless line / scene which context and impact is nothing more than a tasteless joke.

Thank the gods the game has a feature to skip or fast forward scenes so that cant ruin your 60-80 hours experience.

 

[TurnipFritters]

Or express your dislike for the changes since they're ridiculously asinine and disrespectful to the original devs, and not purchase the localization.
Sorry - but when I buy a game, I'm not buying it under the expectation that to get the faithful version of the product I should have to look online for footage.

then you should always purchase the japanese version because the localization is sullied with all that english text.

anyway i want to reiterate for the nth time that major video games are not auteur projects but rather things designed by a committee expressly for commercial purposes (yes, even the persona franchise has more people making decisions than just hashino/meguro/soejima), so the whole "but it's compromising the creator's artistic vision!!!" thing is kind of silly tbh.

Sure some people get "touchy" for a pointless line / scene which context and impact is nothing more than a tasteless joke.

Thank the gods the game has a feature to skip or fast forward scenes so that cant ruin your 60-80 hours experience.

yeah it's weird that some folks would be uncomfortable when they're reminded that their very existence is still mostly just a punchline to a lot of people.

 

[Zolo]

The dialogue will likely get edited to be more acceptable, but I doubt anything will be cut, and it'll still have the animations on the characters.

Edit: Would people actually feel different about changes in a localization if it was by an author of a novel with complete freedom?

 

[A Dead Diehard]

The dialogue will likely get edited to be more acceptable, but I doubt anything will be cut, and it'll still have the animations on the characters.

Edit: Would people actually feel different about changes in a localization if it was by an author of a novel with complete freedom?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but given the current climate, I'm going to say "yes" purely by the mention of "changes".

 

[Deleted member 518609]

then you should always purchase the japanese version because the localization is sullied with all that english text.

anyway i want to reiterate for the nth time that major video games are not auteur projects but rather things designed by a committee expressly for commercial purposes (yes, even the persona franchise has more people making decisions than just hashino/meguro/soejima), so the whole "but it's compromising the creator's artistic vision!!!" thing is kind of silly tbh.

Oh spare me that nonsense, a localization isn't unfaithful by nature for being in another language. It's entirely possible to translate a title and stay faithful - #FE is not one of those cases.

Virtually every piece of modern entertainment is affected by commercialism to some extent, but it's just plain insulting to think that because of that there's no artistic integrity there that's worth preserving.

 

[PK Gaming]

Considering that 'gag' isn't just limited to

Spoiler

the beach scene

and happens a few times, no I wasn't talking about that. As A Dead Diehard said, yeah - I meant

Spoiler

the beach scene

as a whole. It was more a "oh great another why do my japanese games have fanservice in them" post.
Though I honestly think removing or toning down the dialogue in that gag would do more harm than good. If Atlus USA "fixes" it, then Atlus Japan and Hashino won't hear any criticism for it, and nothing would change in future games. I'm also just in favor of the localization staying faithful to the original, and based on that principal, I feel it's a little hypocritical to be okay with things I dislike being changed, but not okay with things I do care about being changed.

Wanting to keep that dialogue in the hopes that Atlus Japan hears about it is incredibly idealistic at best. Staying faithful to the original intent is important, but the point of a localization is to localize (duh) and improve on the original.

There is literally nothing to be gained by keeping the scene as is. You might think otherwise, but what about the actual members of the LGBT community who will inevitably feel marginalized and hurt by it. What about their feelings? Making it more welcoming to them should be a top priority for the localization. No, that doesn't mean removing these characters from the game entirely. But yes, the dialogue should be altered, because it's shameless trash. Sorry if you feel otherwise, but I don't think games are sacrosanct.

EDIT: I don't know why you keep bringing up #FE when it's such a blatant edge case.

 

[Dantis]

Let's keep it civil here guys. No need to accuse anyone of any phobias or hate. Let's keep it grounded.

Wanting to keep that dialogue in the hopes that Atlus Japan hears about it is incredibly idealistic at best. Staying faithful to the original intent is important, but the point of a localization is to localize (duh) and improve on the original.

There is literally nothing to be gained by keeping the scene as is. You might think otherwise, but what about the actual members of the LGBT community who will inevitably feel marginalized and hurt by it. What about their feelings? Making it more welcoming to them should be a top priority for the localization. No, that doesn't mean removing these characters from the game entirely. But yes, the dialogue should be altered, because it's shameless trash. Sorry if you feel otherwise, but I don't think games are sacrosanct.

EDIT: I don't know why you keep bringing up #FE when it's such a blatant edge case.

I don't agree with the bolded. The point of a localisation is to carry a product over in a faithful, sincere way. Improving on the original product isn't the place of the translator, because quality is subjective. When you try and improve on quality you change the product, like in Metal Gear Solid 1.

Some actual, real people might be offended by it. Some of them might be upset by it. I don't know. At best, I'd imagine most will roll their eyes. It's not our place to tell others how to feel, but to me, this seems like a dumb joke, but not a big deal.
And making it more welcoming shouldn't be a top priority. Putting out the best product they can should be.

The best case scenario would be P-Studio getting together and replacing the scene with something better, like Tecmo did for Project Zero 5's costume alterations. I find this scenario incredibly unlikely, however. I don't think altering the nature of the scene or removing it outright is a good solution though.

 

[StarSketch]

You can't just blanket say "no removal of anything ever" with translations- since we keep bringing up #FE, didn't a scene in Fates get edited because it was crazy creepy? More people flipped out over Skinship getting cut and the handful of supports that were localized poorly than that thing.

 

[Dantis]

You can't just blanket say "no removal of anything ever" with translations- since we keep bringing up #FE, didn't a scene in Fates get edited because it was crazy creepy? More people flipped out over Skinship getting cut and the handful of supports that were localized poorly than that thing.

I mean, there are exceptions. Stuff like Dungeon Travelers. Extreme cases, basically.

What's the Fire Emblem thing? I probably wouldn't have cared if they hadn't changed it, I imagine.

 

[Deleted member 518609]

Wanting to keep that dialogue in the hopes that Atlus Japan hears about it is incredibly idealistic at best. Staying faithful to the original intent is important, but the point of a localization is to localize (duh) and improve on the original.

There is literally nothing to be gained by keeping the scene as is. You might think otherwise, but what about the actual members of the LGBT community who will inevitably feel marginalized and hurt by it. What about their feelings? Making it more welcoming to them should be a top priority for the localization. No, that doesn't mean removing these characters from the game entirely. But yes, the dialogue should be altered, because it's shameless trash. Sorry if you feel otherwise, but I don't think games are sacrosanct.

EDIT: I don't know why you keep bringing up #FE when it's such a blatant edge case.

It's a shitty gag, there's no disputing that - I completely agree. But I also really don't think it's Atlus USA's job to remove it. I also honestly don't think the scene will stick with most people, and it's not the only LGBT representation in the game either (

Spoiler

in fact, I think the Newcomer Bar is a very positive spin on a typical Japanese stereotype

). It's not like the scene is implying every single homosexual is like these two, it's just trying to pull off a gag that is coming across as pretty tasteless.

I guess I did dwell on #FE more than I needed to, in the second case I brought it up I was simply using it as an example of a localization I thought made too many changes, and it was fresh in my memory.

 

[PK Gaming]

I don't agree with the bolded. The point of a localisation is to carry a product over in a faithful, sincere way. Improving on the original product isn't the place of the translator, because quality is subjective. When you try and improve on quality you change the product, like in Metal Gear Solid 1.

Some actual, real people might be offended by it. Some of them might be upset by it. I don't know. At best, I'd imagine most will roll their eyes. It's not our place to tell others how to feel, but to me, this seems like a dumb joke, but not a big deal.
And making it more welcoming shouldn't be a top priority. Putting out the best product they can should be.

The best case scenario would be P-Studio getting together and replacing the scene with something better, like Tecmo did for Project Zero 5's costume alterations. I find this scenario incredibly unlikely, however. I don't think altering the nature of the scene or removing it outright is a good solution though.

One of the lead localizers behind Trails of Cold Steel had a really good point about this topic

The kind of questioning and consideration I've talked about here isn't strange or abnormal: it's the core of localization's balancing act. We want you to have the same fun experience Japanese players enjoyed, but to deliver that, we often must be willing to depart from direct translation to get something that would capture for you the same feeling that the Japanese dialogue had for its home audience. That's a bit more challenging here than in a typical fantasy adventure not only because of the school setting, but also due to the modernity of the game's world. Because we as players have a greater frame of reference for these things, we're more sensitive to when situations depicted in the game feel awkward or don't match up to our own experiences or expectations

Our goal, then, was to sand the most arbitrarily Japanese edges off of Thors (since Erebonia is pretty decidedly not Japanese) – the senpais and the kohais; the constant ganbattes – and coax forth the universality of the experience of school. There's still bowing at the end of homeroom, and there might be a mysterious transfer student somewhere in there, but to make it feel natural was our goal, and one that I think we've executed quite well. But, again, you'll be able to decide for yourselves soon enough.

I might come off as critical here, but I think thoughtful criticism is instrumental in helping to improve things. If we, as editors, took the script we were given, just made sure all the periods and commas were in the right places, and sent it off, I'm not sure you'd like the game you wound up with. The very act of editing itself is a statement of, ”Yes, we can improve this. We can make it so that people will enjoy it more than they would in the state it's in right now." RPGs with anime art styles have developed a somewhat tarnished reputation in modern times compared to fans' memories of the genre's golden age. Some people may even consider the presence of ”anime art" to be synonymous with ”this will be a bad game." Given that you're here reading an XSEED blog, the chances that YOU think that are probably pretty low, but even I have to admit, I miss the days when anime-style RPGs offered up the coolest stories you could find in games. But you know Falcom: they're a developer who worked through that golden age and stood the test of time, carrying their quality workmanship all the way to the present. Building on their steadfast foundations, I wanted to make this a game that, as much as was in my power to influence, would shine with that old glory and quality – to do my utmost to ensure that Trails of Cold Steel would join the rest of the Trails series in being games that make RPG fans think, ”This is great in the way I remember my favorite console RPGs being great."

So a couple of things. It's not 100% comparable; Persona is aggressively Japanese, whereas Trails of Cold Steel wasn't, hence the reason why they cut out the senpais and the like. But your claim about "improving on the original product isn't on the translator" is completely faulty because localization doesn't just deal with translation, as noted in the article. It's obviously about conveying the original meaning yes, but it's also about fine tuning the game for the target audience. And in this case, it's removing the blatant homophobia that clearly isn't problematic in Japan.

At the end of the day, North America = / = Japan and I don't think you speak for everyone when you claim that it's "not a big deal." The backlash in this very thread alone from certain users (myself included) should speak to that. And cmon, putting out the best product goes hand in hand by removing low brow, garbage humor that is out of place in a game like Persona 5.

It's a shitty gag, there's no disputing that - I completely agree. But I also really don't think it's Atlus USA's job to remove it. I also honestly don't think the scene will stick with most people, and it's not the only LGBT representation in the game either (

Spoiler

in fact, I think the Newcomer Bar is a very positive spin on a typical Japanese stereotype

). It's not like the scene is implying every single homosexual is like these two, it's just trying to pull off a gag that is coming across as pretty tasteless.

I guess I did dwell on #FE more than I needed to, in the second case I brought it up I was simply using it as an example of a localization I thought made too many changes, and it was fresh in my memory.

Again, i'm not saying it should be removed. But toned down and altered to be less obnoxious/stereotypical? Seriously, what's the harm in doing that?

 

[Lynx_7]

I don't agree that a localization's job should be to "improve" on the original. That sounds like a dangerous slippery slope. If I want to read Crime and Punishment or The Count of Monte Cristo I don't want to read a compromised version that changes certain scenes and details for the "betterment" of the story or to avoid hurting modern people's sensibilities, I want to read something as faithful as possible to the source without needing to spend years studying Russian or French.

That said, it wouldn't bother me if they removed or altered the scene in question because it's gratuitous and largely irrelevant to the plot and characters. I understand fixyouregrammar's point in that it's a bad precedent to set for the future, but as long as it's reserved to stupid jokes like that then I don't think it's an issue.

 

[Deleted member 518609]

Again, i'm not saying it should be removed. But toned down and altered to be less obnoxious/stereotypical? Seriously, what's the harm in doing that?

Well honestly, if we want to speak on hypothetical changes, I don't see how it can be toned down without being cut entirely. I doubt it's the specific lines these characters have that are upsetting people, it's what they do in the scene as a whole. Without outright changing the animations and the scene itself, I don't think it'll make any difference to how people view the scene.

 

[Sophia]

A localization's job is not to improve upon the original.

A localization's job is to take the original and make it fit within the language and culture of which it is being localized to, while remaining as faithful as possible to the source material.

 

[PK Gaming]

Well honestly, if we want to speak on hypothetical changes, I don't see how it can be toned down without being cut entirely. I doubt it's the specific lines these characters have that are upsetting people, it's what they do in the scene as a whole. Without outright changing the animations and the scene itself, I don't think it'll make any difference to how people view the scene.

It's not that hard

Making them less baltant camp gay and more like jerks would suffice

 

[Dantis]

One of the lead localizers behind Trails of Cold Steel had a really good point about this topic



So a couple of things. It's not 100% comparable; Persona is aggressively Japanese, whereas Trails of Cold Steel wasn't, hence the reason why they cut out the senpais and the like. But your claim about "improving on the original product isn't on the translator" is completely faulty because localization doesn't just deal with translation, as noted in the article. It's obviously about conveying the original meaning yes, but it's also about fine tuning the game for the target audience. And in this case, it's removing the blatant homophobia that clearly isn't problematic in Japan.

At the end of the day, North America = / = Japan and I don't think you speak for everyone when you claim that it's "not a big deal." The backlash in this very thread alone from certain users (myself included) should speak to that. And cmon, putting out the best product goes hand in hand by removing low brow, garbage humor that is out of place in a game like Persona 5.

If I thought I spoke for everyone, I probably wouldn't have said

It's not our place to tell others how to feel, but to me, this seems like a dumb joke, but not a big deal.

People can and will argue this scene. But I feel like there are larger issues that could be addressed beyond what this dumb videogame is doing. I honestly don't think many people will be offended by it (and I don't mean somebody saying "Gosh! How rude!", I mean, you know, deeply hurt), but maybe I'm wrong as I'm not a part of referenced minority. Who knows.

There are things in the world that genuinely concern in terms of representation and perception. I was going to list examples, but it doesn't matter. I care about larger issues. But this is a three sentence scene in a 90 hour game that (relatively speaking) nobody is going to play and even less are going to care about.

If Atlus change it, then whatever. I'm still buying the game. I have no attachment to this scene at all. I don't think it's funny, and I know that it doesn't matter. And you're probably buying it even if they don't, I would wager. So I don't think either of us cares that much. The idea of changing a product for the sake of a likely incredibly small number of players who would be genuinely affected by it, though, seems weird and kind of bad to me.

 

[Deleted member 518609]

It's not that hard

Making them less baltant camp gay and more like jerks would suffice

Right, but that lies in their animations and character models. The scene has them acting visibly camp, their designs are as stereotypical as you can get, and it ends with the protagonist and Ryuji running off looking terrified. Do Atlus USA even have the staff to edit models and animations? I doubt it, but if they did, I think it would be better off being used on syncing lip movements with the English dub, or translating signs around the city, rather than changing a scene like this.

 

[PK Gaming]

Right, but that lies in their animations and character models. The scene has them acting visibly camp, their designs are as stereotypical as you can get, and it ends with the protagonist and Ryuji running off looking terrified. Do Atlus USA even have the staff to edit models and animations? I doubt it, but if they did, I think it would be better off being used on syncing lip movements with the English dub, or translating signs around the city, rather than changing a scene like this.

I'm sure they'll manage even without editing animations. Presumably they would still keep them as gay jerks but not be completely embarrassing about it like in the Japanese version.

People can and will argue this scene. But I feel like there are larger issues that could be addressed beyond what this dumb videogame is doing. I honestly don't think many people will be offended by it (and I don't mean somebody saying "Gosh! How rude!", I mean, you know, deeply hurt), but maybe I'm wrong as I'm not a part of referenced minority. Who knows.

There are things in the world that genuinely concern in terms of representation and perception. I was going to list examples, but it doesn't matter. I care about larger issues. But this is a three sentence scene in a 90 hour game that (relatively speaking) nobody is going to play and even less are going to care about.

If Atlus change it, then whatever. I'm still buying the game. I have no attachment to this scene at all. I don't think it's funny, and I know that it doesn't matter. And you're probably buying it even if they don't, I would wager. So I don't think either of us cares that much. The idea of changing a product for the sake of a likely incredibly small number of players who would be genuinely affected by it, though, seems weird and kind of bad to me.

If you honestly don't think people will be offended by this then you've been living in a bubble for the past few years. Now, more than ever, these sort of things turn into controversies all of the time. You only have to look at the Soleil controversy in Fire Emblem: Fates to see that. Helleven on GAF, largely insignificant moments get blown up all of the time by posters. In any case, we're clearly talking past each other. This doesn't have to be about the bigger issues.

Like, the flow of logic isn't that hard:

-Offensive caricatures of gay people exist in the JP version of Persona 5
-Atlus USA will localize and tone it down, as they've done similr things in the past
-Some people will appreciate it and many won't care
-The end?

I don't get your point. Only a few people will care so why bother? What kind of logic is that?? Especially since changing the scenes (it's a running gag btw) to make it less offensive is such a trivial thing. To the people who don't care, it won't make a difference. But to the people who do care, it would matter. A ton. Even a modicum of exclusivity feels like shit.

 

[Dantis]

I don't get your point. Only a few people will care so why bother? What kind of logic is that??

Because this is a business, and changing things for the sake of ten people which isn't going to affect their profits one way or the other is a big ask.

And if you're confident they'll tone it down anyway, then what's the issue?

 

[OrionX]

There are things in the world that genuinely concern in terms of representation and perception. I was going to list examples, but it doesn't matter. I care about larger issues. But this is a three sentence scene in a 90 hour game that (relatively speaking) nobody is going to play and even less are going to care about.

Oh.

I was almost "genuinely concerned" about the scene, but now that you've pointed out that it's not a "larger issue" that people would care about, I feel much better. -_-

For the record, I don't think removing it is the answer, and I doubt that they will change anything. It is what it is. It's obviously not going to prevent me from getting the game. But yes, I do find it rather offensive. I'm not gonna get up in arms over it, but that doesn't mean I don't care.

 

[Zolo]

Slippery slope, etc.

I'm generally pretty strict on what I don't care for being changed like FE's face.....thing even if it wasn't something I'd use. That said, there are certain things I'm fine with changing.

1. Content like Lyn's sexualized costumes in Xenoblade X. That's a big 'no' with how young the character is. On the other hand, I thought removing the breast slider for character creation was dumb.
2. Offensive content not intended to be offensive like in this case.
3. Uh....probably other things, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.
4. Oh. I also don't like the ToB change at the beginning because of violent content that might make the game 'M'. Generally don't have to worry about this point though.

I generally don't care about changes like any I mentioned either way, but those are generally the sides I'd go on with changes.

 

[PK Gaming]

Because this is a business, and changing things for the sake of ten people which isn't going to affect their profits one way or the other is a big ask.

And if you're confident they'll tone it down anyway, then what's the issue?

Changing things for the sake of ten people? Ahhhhh, you don't get it at all.

Okay, let's try this from a different angle. There's this show called Angel right? The main character makes this speech:

Angel: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it.
Kate Lockley: And now you do?
Angel: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.

And I absolute hate to use myself as an example, but i'm going to open up, so get ready. Persona 5 has black people right? I even made some dumb joke about it. But the truth is, it made me genuinely happy. I was happy that this awesome game I was really looking forward to portrayed black people in a way that wasn't overly stereotypical. It made me feel like I wasn't some elephant in the room. unlike some other series that shall not be named.

And yeah, that's such a lame thing to admit, but it was a genuinely big deal to me. It might not matter to you, but making a small group of people feel less excluded is a great thing for the people who are a part of that group. That's why, if AtlusUSA can make LGBT people feel even 1% more welcome in the NA version of Persona 5, then i'm all for it. It has nothing to do with business or profits or any of that nonsense.

If the Persona games are predicated on the characters wanting to be accepted and loved by others, I think that should apply to the gamers who play them too.

That's just my 2 cents.

 

[Setsu00]

Atlus USA shouldn't change the scene and that's coming from someone who was and still is super disappointed that Atlus Japan can't stop making jokes about LGBT people.

I'm not sure if a potential "fix" would be considered censorship or not, but generally I believe that a work of art shouldn't be tempered with beyond what's absolutely necessary. Changing a scene like that to be less offensive isn't something I'd deem absolutely necessary. On the other hand, I'm fully on board with increasing the age of sexualized underage characters, so I realize that I might sound insincere right now.

I also hope that there might be significant backlash for that scene. P4 and its treatment of Kanji (which, by the way, is nowhere near as offensive as P5's beach scene for various reasons) may not have caused P-Studio to change its ways, but P5 is a much more anticipated game and someone is bound to write an angry blog post about it and maybe that blog post gets enough traction to actually change something. Hiraoka also said that the West is starting to become more important for them, so maybe they're more open for feedback now.

Lastly, it's not the only LGBT representation in the game and the way the game seemingly treats characters like the owner of the gay bar in Shinjuku shows that they do recognize that LGBT people aren't there solely to be the bottom line of a very bad joke. I probably would be much more bitter about the beach scene if it wasn't for the gay bar and the fact that the people who frequent it are simply people and not a bunch of stereotypes.

 

[Mediking]

@PK Gaming

Pretty much all JRPG developers need to work on good racial diversity. Including Atlus.

 

[Deleted member 518609]

Pretty much all JRPG developers need to work on good racial diversity. Including Atlus.

For games set in Japan? I dunno. It's not very realistic to have an equal or even very many foreigners. I think P5 does a good job with it though, having a few tourists and the like here and there in popular locations like Akiba, and obviously there's plenty more on the

Spoiler

Hawaii

trip.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ahhhhh my post was so embarassing

I don't like being so forthcoming

 

[Zolo]

Ahhhhh my post was so embarassing

I don't like being so forthcoming

I thought it sounded good.

 

[Setsu00]

Ahhhhh my post was so embarassing

I don't like being so forthcoming

Eh, nothing about your post was embarasing. It's completely fine to say what you want.

 

[Funyarinpa]

I'm completely split on the debate about that scene, but I think there's something positive in either outcome.

 

[Jintor]

once you accept that any translation no matter how faithful to the original source by necessity involves some level of interpretation and change you've already embarked upon the slippery slope imho

 

[Mediking]

@fixyourgrammar


It's not becoming a HUGE problem for me but every now and then I'm like...."Nothing wrong with a character in a JRPG with an actual DIFFERENT skin tone whose actually written well."

P6 starring a female lead and having a party member whose a black girl or something would be pretty amazing.... and this is coming from a guy.

 

[Jintor]

another thing

fighting the big battles doesn't invalidating fighting the small battles

 

[DNAbro]

If I thought I spoke for everyone, I probably wouldn't have said



People can and will argue this scene. But I feel like there are larger issues that could be addressed beyond what this dumb videogame is doing. I honestly don't think many people will be offended by it (and I don't mean somebody saying "Gosh! How rude!", I mean, you know, deeply hurt), but maybe I'm wrong as I'm not a part of referenced minority. Who knows.

There are things in the world that genuinely concern in terms of representation and perception. I was going to list examples, but it doesn't matter. I care about larger issues. But this is a three sentence scene in a 90 hour game that (relatively speaking) nobody is going to play and even less are going to care about.

If Atlus change it, then whatever. I'm still buying the game. I have no attachment to this scene at all. I don't think it's funny, and I know that it doesn't matter. And you're probably buying it even if they don't, I would wager. So I don't think either of us cares that much. The idea of changing a product for the sake of a likely incredibly small number of players who would be genuinely affected by it, though, seems weird and kind of bad to me.

It's not a "this deeply hurts me" kind of thing it is more of a I don't like being insulted by a product I am enjoying. It is an annoyance that I wish I didn't have to deal with. Negative representation is problem and saying to Atlus "hey this shit isn't cool" is needed.

It would be nice if Atlus didn't include shit like this so the localization issue didn't even have to be discussed.

 

[Dantis]

It's not a "this deeply hurts me" kind of thing it is more of a I don't like being insulted by a product I am enjoying. It is an annoyance that I wish I didn't have to deal with. Negative representation is problem and saying to Atlus "hey this shit isn't cool" is needed.

It would be nice if Atlus didn't include shit like this so the localization issue didn't even have to be discussed.

But if it's a mild annoyance, why would anyone care?

All I'm saying is that we should treat it for what it is - a dumb joke. Nobody's not buying the game because of it and most people aren't going to care about it at all.

Would it be nice if future Persona games were a bit more respectful to minorities? Sure, and P5 has less fan service than P4, so clearly they're making progress. Baby steps.

But on a personal level I'll not be upset if they don't change that joke.

 

[PK Gaming]

😏

 

[Dantis]

😏

When it comes to entertainment, kind of?

Like I'd never, ever try to prevent inclusivity. But it's not something I look for either, I don't think? I absolutely support good media that features strong representations of minorities and the like. But I support them because they're good media, not because of gender, skin colour etc. etc.

I read the other day that Atlanta has an all black writing team. That's very cool. Like as a thing. Good going.
But that isn't why I like the show.

 

[Lynx_7]

once you accept that any translation no matter how faithful to the original source by necessity involves some level of interpretation and change you've already embarked upon the slippery slope imho

Not really. There's a gigantic leap between accepting that certain things need to be adapted because they have no direct equivalent in your language or for better readability in general, and another to accept them tinkering with the way a character is portrayed or changing the setting of the game from Japan to California

Spoiler

(I love Ace Attorney's localizations but that always struck me as an unnecessary change)

. This isn't about Persona 5 mind you, just translations in general. I think Persona and other Atlus games are pretty good about this, except for Persona 1 psx.

And I absolute hate to use myself as an example, but i'm going to open up, so get ready. Persona 5 has black people right? I even made some dumb joke about it. But the truth is, it made me genuinely happy. I was happy that this awesome game I was really looking forward to portrayed black people in a way that wasn't overly stereotypical. It made me feel like I wasn't some elephant in the room. unlike some other series that shall not be named.

Joke's on you, I can see the name on the link!

 

[Jintor]

it's nice you can look on it as just a dumb joke, d

 

[Jintor]

Not really. There's a gigantic leap between accepting that certain things need to be adapted because they have no direct equivalent in your language or for better readability in general, and another to accept them tinkering with the way a character is portrayed or changing the setting of the game from Japan to California

Spoiler

(I love Ace Attorney's localizations but that always struck me as an unnecessary change)

. This isn't about Persona 5 mind you, just translations in general. I think Persona and other Atlus games are pretty good about this, except for Persona 1 psx.

But if you're going to argue the idea of slippery slope in the first place, then any minor change is equivalent to further changes down the line, right?

 

[Dantis]

it's nice you can look on it as just a dumb joke, d

What do you see it as, Patrick? You think it's more than that?