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[Glaurungr]

Gamasutra interview with Josh Sawyer: Project Eternity: What it really means to make the game you want to make

 

[Sentenza]

I dunno, christmas tree ornaments around the belt and a weathervane as a staff?

Uh, he's a wind wizard and his outfit is specifically designed around the idea that he has to endure his own spells?

And the "Christmas tree ornaments" around his belt are just two potions.
Are you guys trying too hard or what?

Show me a single other game that can top it in these aspects. ONE. Not even two.
We are talking about the fantasy game with what's probably the more historically accurate (and yet very cool) armor design around and you are actually going to nitpick about those few details that are deliberately placed on these characters to make them stand out? Seriously?

how is it better?

Like the guy above said, all the art needs is some color, aside from that what makes the witcher 2 stuff better?

I already explained "how".
He's *recognizable*, he's original and he's good looking. All qualities that "Edair" lacks. And no, it's not "because of the colors".

Don't forget stripes. Stripes can define a character.

Are you afraid of striped cloths, for some reason?

 

[Lancehead]

Gamasutra interview with Josh Sawyer: Project Eternity: What it really means to make the game you want to make

Some really nice quotes in that article.

"This has been bugging me a lot lately," he says. "In the past few years there's been a trend toward designing games with mechanics for people who don't like those mechanics, and it blows my mind... I look at a lot of mechanics, like 'hey, let's write dialog for people who don't like to read!' You were writing with the assumption that they do want to read some of it, right? If people don't want to read, why are we writing? And if people don't like combat, why do you have combat in it?"

Certainly it's possible that dialog that's too long or requires editing could be a problem for some players, and a balance always needs to be struck, and proper pacing always needs to be employed. A system like Mass Effect's, where players are rewarded with XP for reading lore, strikes Sawyer as a little odd: Players that enjoy lore will read it anyway, and players that don't like reading lore will quickly flip through as with any other chore just to get the points -- and still won't read it.

This relates to the whole "hardcore RPG" thing:

And while Obsidian may now reject the unified trend toward mainstreaming niche genres, Sawyer believes ultimately it was good for his colleagues and peers. "Especially in the RPG genre, we were so focused on the hardcore, and on ingrained tradition," he says. "We had insular, specific ways of doing things that had been done that way for so long. Once you said to developers, 'hey, how about you sell this game to someone who hasn't played D&D... it was a big wake-up call'."

"It made us do things we would not have normally been comfortable doing," he says of his experience learning to focus on a wider audience. "And now there can be RPGs [with a] lower barrier to entry, that are more for people who just want to go to a cool fantasy, or post-apocalyptic or sci-fi world and do things where the systems are forgiving."

"But it's nice that we can now say, okay, knowing all the stuff we know about mechanics that are really, on a fundamental level, shitty for everyone, and the only reason anyone tolerated them was because of convention? Now we don't have to do that," he adds.

 

[Sentenza]

Maybe we should stop comparing art of important characters in the game with art that's represents a class. When Obsidian releases concept art of an important character, we can do all sorts of comparisons with Witcher.

Uh, maybe you didn't realize yet, but you are just looking at two of your future companions in Project Eternity, in these artworks.

 

[subversus]

Just play it on easy, that way you won't have to bother with its combat and can get to the stuff that matters, like story, quest design, etc.

Not sure if mods are going to be worth it, The Witcher 1's mods were.. subpar. I doubt the sequel will be any different.

it will be different because the editor is very different this time. And I enjoy combat and play it on hard.

 

[Shake Appeal]

I agree that The Witcher 2 has superb character design.

 

[Lancehead]

Uh, maybe you didn't realize yet, but you are just looking at two of your future companions in Project Eternity, in these artworks.

Uh yes you're right, I forgot. I still think colour is the biggest missing detail. Not sure why they decided to release them without colour.

 

[Glaurungr]

I'm just glad they're going the realistic route when it comes to armour and weapon design.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I liked that interview.

Making "the traditional" their own rather than making it for a specific license.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I already explained "how".
He's *recognizable*, he's original and he's good looking. All qualities that "Edair" lacks. And no, it's not "because of the colors".


Are you afraid of striped cloths, for some reason?

You didn't explain how outside some bits of color here and there the witcher 2 designs are better than what's been shown. Maybe they're more recognizable to you, but I fail to see how they're much better.

 

[charsace]

Is "boob armor" really a big deal? I'd rather have characters appear as differnetly as possible and that's part of it. This game, and genre, is not about realism and never has been. I want the girls to look different from the guys, it's not a matter of sexuality, in a game what does it matter, it's about variety. I want characters to look different from each other. While I love Fallout, I don't like how every character looks the same based on armor, and I'd rather that not be the case here.

edit: and yeah, Witcher 2 designs aren't any better than what's been shown

ironic that u have a GOT avatar and want boob armor. You can tell who is who without giving warriors nonsense armor. As long as the character designs are good we won't need boob plates.

 

[whalleywhat]

Gamasutra interview with Josh Sawyer: Project Eternity: What it really means to make the game you want to make

Good stuff. I like the quote about designing for people who don't like the thing you're designing.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

ironic that u have a GOT avatar and want boob armor. You can tell who is who without giving warriors nonsense armor. As long as the character designs are good we won't need boob plates.

Cool, I like how you decide my preferences based on my avatar (especially since if you bothered to look at the Game of Thrones thread you'd see I'm one of the most crictical of the TV series). All I said was that I wanted variety and if "boob armor" meant variety I'm all for it. Is it that big of a deal?

 

[adixon]

Has Obsidian ever been known for their incredibly unique art style?

Also good not to forget that they're right at the verrry beginning of production here... More unique visual "hooks" as Avellone talked about could very well be discovered along the journey of actually making the game. I doubt it's normal to have any companion's art completely fleshed out and finalized a few weeks into a project.

 

[Famassu]

Yes, it is, by FAR.
Vernon Roche's appearance has a very recognizable outfit without being exceedingly over the top.
It also has its fair amount of details adding an even more distinctive feel.

Edair looks like "Anonymous NPC on the side of the street #2346" from any random adventure module for D&D.

Your example looks like some generic on the side of the road merchant or something. Other than the turban and silly fanny bag chest hanging on his side, there's absolutely nothing special or overly recognizable in his design. And no, there aren't that much details to make a distinctive feel for him, certainly not much more than what that Obsidian artwork has.

 

[Sentenza]

Your example looks like some generic on the side of the road merchant or something. Other than the turban and silly fanny bag chest hanging on his side, there's absolutely nothing special or overly recognizable in his design. And no, there aren't that much details to make a distinctive feel for him, certainly not much more than what that Obsidian artwork has.

Yes, there are. And that's exactly why he's one of the most loved characters by the audience: because everyone who played the game found his characterization, both in terms of personality and outfit, simply great for gaming standards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCBGFiyq75w

Did you are least play the game at some point? Or are you just making the naysayer for the sake of it, without even having a full knowledge of what are we talking about?

The turban isn't something to dismiss like nothing, it's exactly a distinctive and relevant detail in his design. It codes his image. It gives him an exotic touch that makes him quite different from the typical soldier.
The "fanny" (?) belt chest, beside being based on accessories that actually existed, isn't even part of his outfit in the game, so it's a non-issue.

Beside that, you are apparently ignoring a shitload of other details, like the way clothes, ornaments and pieces of armors are composed together to create a very unique and distinctive look.

 

[Riposte]

Going to have to side with TucoBenedictoPacifico on this one. The Witcher 2 manages to be grounded and stylish (individually so) at the same time and the nitpicking on the images he posted nearly made be barfed over how pedantic it was. All the better as the character models in the game are so damn good, especially the textures for clothing. I have to imagine it took some poor artist years to make just one of them just right.

I don't expect this game to have particularly good character design, however Obsidian did make some of my favorite "modern setting" designs with Alpha Protocol. Omen Deng namely.

Expert mode sounds like a bunch of things I would probably like to toggle separately.


My current feeling on this game, which is dampening my enthusiasm, is that it seems to be too much about capturing the glory of the past and not pushing the RPG forward (as I felt Alpha Protocol did, for one). It is not what I would want from an Obsidian "unchained". However I realize the realities of a kick-starter project (and this is why I generally do not want kick-start for anything I truly want).

 

[EviLore]

Witcher 2 has stellar character design and the PE concept art looks generic and boring, the main complaint about what we've been shown so far overall. Really need a new artist or a new artistic direction.

 

[Dennis]

[

Nothing like walking down the road wearing a treasure chest on your belt.

"Fuck you, robbers! I am Vernon Roche, you know me by reputation...."

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Nothing like walking down the road wearing a treasure chest on you belt.

"Fuck you, robbers! I am Vernon Roche, you know me by reputation...."

It's a challenge to anyone with a huge ass key.

 

[Famassu]

Yes, there are. And that's exactly why he's one of the most loved characters by the audience: because everyone who played the game found his characterization, both in terms of personality and outfit, simply great for gaming standards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCBGFiyq75w

Did you are least play the game at some point? Or are you just making the naysayer for the sake of it, without even having a full knowledge of what are we talking about?

The turban isn't something to dismiss like nothing, it's exactly a distinctive and relevant detail in his design. It codes his image. It gives him an exotic touch that makes him quite different from the typical soldier.
The "fanny" (?) belt chest, beside being based on accessories that actually existed, isn't even part of his outfit in the game, so it's a non-issue.

Beside that, you are apparently ignoring a shitload of other details, like the way clothes, ornaments and pieces of armors are composed together to create a very unique and distinctive look.

I'm basing this on the fact that he doesn't look anything special to me. I've seen similar character designs before. His artwork is as bland & generic as Obsidian's.

And we are talking about that piece of artwork outside the context of the game. It doesn't matter if he doesn't have the belt chest in the game or how awesome he is in the actual game, it just doesn't look that good to me.

Now, THIS is a good, distinctive character design of Triss:

Though, the amount of belts is almost equal to Nomura's.

 

[whalleywhat]

It's a challenge to anyone with a huge ass key.

lol

 

[Sentenza]

I'm basing this on the fact that he doesn't look anything special to me.

If this isn't a distinctive character design for you, what makes a character stand out in your opinion? A goddamn clown outfit?

Though, the amount of belts is almost equal to Nomura's.

Yeah, two belt (one for clothes, the other for the satchel) -> "equal to Nomura".
Jesus Christ, I can't believe it.

 

[Dennis]

Yeah, two belt (one for clothes, the other for the satchel) -> "equal to Nomura".
Jesus Christ, I can't believe it.

You got trolled, Tuco!

 

[Sentenza]

You got trolled, Tuco!

Well, I guess so.

 

[Lancehead]

My current feeling on this game, which is dampening my enthusiasm, is that it seems to be too much about capturing the glory of the past and not pushing the RPG forward (as I felt Alpha Protocol did, for one). It is not what I would want from an Obsidian "unchained". However I realize the realities of a kick-starter project (and this is why I generally do not want kick-start for anything I truly want).

My concern is with regards to the skill system. I thought they had a wonderful opportunity to take what Arcanum had, and execute it "right".

 

[xenist]

I'm getting out of this navel gazing clusterfuck.

 

[dude]

The Witcher 2 design is pretty boring and silly in my opinion. Not that Project Eternity is better, they're just both not very good.

You can't win them all.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

It's a challenge to anyone with a huge ass key.

He is waiting for the day.

Everyone else just thinks he's nuts.

 

[EatChildren]

Nothing like walking down the road wearing a treasure chest on your belt.

"Fuck you, robbers! I am Vernon Roche, you know me by reputation...."

He keeps in it all the fucks he gives.

 

[Corto]

Though off course there's value in discussing this concept art, we need to take into account that it will have an isometric perspective with the camera really far from the characters. Comparing The Witcher 2 level of detail and characterization with PE has little value as it would be a waste of resources to have such level of detail to be lost in the game itself. The breast armor concept is silly, no one can argue, but in an isometric game giving that kind of distinctive feature would be nice to distinguish its character. Yes, they could and I'm sure they will give other characteristics to her design to achieve that, but that was how I understood that design.

 

[Zeliard]

Fuck yeah! Her left leg, right arm and belly should be unarmored for no reason at all. Also she needs to have a hairstyle that wouldn't have been out of place in Paris Fashion Week and enrgy goo slowly seeping out of her eyes.

And shoulder armor. More shoulder armor.

And people wonder why junior members get a bad rap.

 

[Ledsen]

He keeps in it all the fucks he gives.

So it's empty? Seems like a waste.

 

[asker]

Yes, there are. And that's exactly why he's one of the most loved characters by the audience: because everyone who played the game found his characterization, both in terms of personality and outfit, simply great for gaming standards.

Did you are least play the game at some point? Or are you just making the naysayer for the sake of it, without even having a full knowledge of what are we talking about?

The turban isn't something to dismiss like nothing, it's exactly a distinctive and relevant detail in his design. It codes his image. It gives him an exotic touch that makes him quite different from the typical soldier.
The "fanny" (?) belt chest, beside being based on accessories that actually existed, isn't even part of his outfit in the game, so it's a non-issue.

Beside that, you are apparently ignoring a shitload of other details, like the way clothes, ornaments and pieces of armors are composed together to create a very unique and distinctive look.

If anything, from strictly looking at the concept art, Roche is more bland of a design. When discussing the concept art of the new game, you can't bring up the in-game character of one side and claim that it is well designed without doing anything of the kind for the other part. Look at the little pouch on the Project Eternity concept. What could it hold? Perhaps something tightly connected to the character? And he carries a whip in his shield-arm hand. Kind of unique. To the eyes of someone not having played The Witcher 2 (ie. mine), I simply see a dude in a turban, with chains around his shoulders and a chest. Where are the great details that I'm not seeing? You must answer this question without referring to the in-game character.

 

[Corto]

So it's empty? Seems like a waste.

He doesn't give a fuck. He enjoys the leering looks of women checking out the size of his chest thinking he didn't noticed them. And the jealous looks of men too.

 

[Vagabundo]

I'm starting to wish all games were funded by kickstarter. Or at least the non shovelware ones.

 

[Lime]

So it's empty? Seems like a waste.

An empty chest of fucks is also a statement.

Though off course there's value in discussing this concept art, we need to take into account that it will have an isometric perspective with the camera really far from the characters. Comparing The Witcher 2 level of detail and characterization with PE has little value as it would be a waste of resources to have such level of detail to be lost in the game itself. The breast armor concept is silly, no one can argue, but in an isometric game giving that kind of distinctive feature would be nice to distinguish its character. Yes, they could and I'm sure they will give other characteristics to her design to achieve that, but that was how I understood that design.

The isometric view might lessen the impact of a not-so-good-looking art style, but it wouldn't hurt the look of the game if the character art style was visually pleasing.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

As someone who hasn't played Witcher 2 (and is thus less likely to be biased towards it) I personally can't say that the witcher 2 character art is any better than the Project Eternity stuff.

Edair is a pretty cool looking guy.

 

[Dennis]

*Robbers attacks Vernon*

*He fucks them up*

*When they lie dying in the dirt, he opens the treasure chest. Its empty*

"You died for this"

 

[Trigger]

*Robbers attacks Vernon*

*He fucks them up*

*When they lie dying in the dirt, he opens the treasure chest. Its empty*

"You died for this"

 

[epmode]

As someone who hasn't played Witcher 2 (and is thus less likely to be biased towards it) I personally can't say that the witcher 2 character art is any better than the Project Eternity stuff.

Having gone through the Witcher 2 art book a few times, I completely disagree. CDPR has some great artists.

 

[Dennis]

Having gone through the Witcher 2 art book a few times, I completely disagree. CDPR has some great artists.

Yep. For all the shit CD Projekt gets for their somewhat immature attitude towards sex, the character art for Trish Merigold is stellar. Beautiful, sexy and competent. But not trashy.

 

[Hargenx]

OK, but Saskia armor is idiotic...

Edit: quoting image! ^_^

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Having gone through the Witcher 2 art book a few times, I completely disagree. CDPR has some great artists.

The artwork is still great, I just can't say that it's better in any way (aside from being coloured) than the Project Eternity artwork so far shown.

It really is totally a matter of subjective taste.

 

[Zeliard]

That one Formspring post by Sawyer seemed to insinuate that they're going to largely go for generic, conventional fantasy at least as far as the aesthetics are concerned in order to garner broader appeal, so we ultimately shouldn't be too surprised about the concepts released so far.

It would be easier to create evocative concept art when not dealing with such well-worn archetypes, so it remains to be seen how those supposedly more "unusual" races come across.

At least the setting seems like it'll be interesting as far as lore and politics.

 

[Lusankya]

That one Formspring post by Sawyer seemed to insinuate that they're going to largely go for generic, conventional fantasy at least as far as the aesthetics are concerned in order to garner broader appeal, so we ultimately shouldn't be too surprised about the concepts released so far.

Reading through their forums, that's exactly what most fans and backers want.

 

[Durante]

but also an endorsement of the idea that making games as broadly-appealing as possible isn't necessarily the ideal strategy anymore.

Wonderful. I have been waiting for this for almost a decade. When something starts to reach a large target audience, that means that you can start specializing on a particular subset of that target audience and still be successful.

 

[Lancehead]

That one Formspring post by Sawyer seemed to insinuate that they're going to largely go for generic, conventional fantasy at least as far as the aesthetics are concerned in order to garner broader appeal, so we ultimately shouldn't be too surprised about the concepts released so far.

Which comment?

 

[inky]

People shitting on TW2 design... in this thread? WTH the hell is going on!

Let's not get crazy in here. you may not like it, but it certainly is not 'generic and boring' or just OK, especially compared to what we've seen so far from Obsidian guys (no offense to them). TW2 art from where you see it is superb.

On the other hand, we are comparing final character art (in color) to what most likely are the first couple of iterations of a project that still has a long way to go. It looks kinda generic and flat now, but it can only improve.

 

[Perkel]

No love for Letho ?

he is highlight of the game. He is the reason why character design is important.

What do you see ? A thinker ? I was quite amazed when you finally speak to him.


I think it would be cool if Avellone would go same way when he did Planescape.
For example what if this dude is not your knight in shining leather armor but in reality thief and lier.

What if this girl with gun is actually not tomboy but very delicate woman with high inteligence. It's all about contex. I think we should trust a little Chris.


edit:

hhaha sory for edit but i was browsing youtube videos and i saw this

amazing.