Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen

Ah, here's something. My monitor is a Dell 2709w and it has apparently 60 ms of input lag. I had to look that up because I've never noticed it. I don't play many shooters, granted, and I use an Xbox 360 controller for most games I play.

Is this a good sign that I won't notice the 72 ms or so of input lag on the st60?
 
Canon said:
Ah, here's something. My monitor is a Dell 2709w and it has apparently 60 ms of input lag. I had to look that up because I've never noticed it. I don't play many shooters, granted, and I use an Xbox 360 controller for most games I play.

Is this a good sign that I won't notice the 72 ms or so of input lag on the st60?
Click to expand...

Turn on Game Mode on the ST60 and it has way less than 75 ms of lag. More like 30's-40's.
 
NoLoveForFailWheelDrive said:
Turn on Game Mode on the ST60 and it has way less than 75 ms of lag. More like 30's-40's.
Click to expand...

Not to be insulting but where the heck do you get that from? Not a single review shows anything close to the 30s for the st60. There were like 4 posts about it the last page. You're just incorrect and potentially misleading someone. Its a great looking TV but input lag is definitely not its strength.
 
sugarman said:
I've only tried it with Killzone 3 so far, but it wasn't so good. I wasn't really into 3D to begin with, though. I've found it's best used for 2D tv/gaming and streaming video from my phone and ipad.
Click to expand...
Do you have anything to compare it to?

Ah fuck it I'll probably buy it and then regret it, but I can't see any other way. Can't test games in a store.
 
garath said:
Not to be insulting but where the heck do you get that from? Not a single review shows anything close to the 30s for the st60. There were like 4 posts about it the last page. You're just incorrect and potentially misleading someone. Its a great looking TV but input lag is definitely not its strength.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I overestimated a bit. But it's more like 49-50 ms.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467481/official-st60-input-lag-thread


Well here are my preliminary results from my lag time tests:

I ran 50 iterations of the Human Benchmark Reaction Time Test. Unless noted otherwise, all tests on the ST60 were run with MPEG NR - OFF, Motion Smoother - OFF, and Video NR - LOW.

Control Test:
Dell U3011 - Avg 275ms
Known Input lag - 24ms
My Estimated lag - 251ms

Tests
Test 1: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct On - Game Mode Off - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 347.0ms - Est. Display Lag 96.0ms
Test 2: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode Off - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 322.5ms - Est. Display Lag 71.5ms
Test 3: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 320.0ms - Est. Display Lag 69.0ms
Test 4: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 315.0ms - Est. Display Lag 64.0ms
Test 5: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter Auto - Overscan Off - Avg 305.2ms - Est. Display Lag 54.2ms
Test 6: ST60 w/ Test 5 Settings - Video NR Off - Avg 300.8ms - Est. Display Lag 49.8ms

Repeat Control Test:
Dell U3011 - Avg 279.9ms
Click to expand...

So yeah... it'd be nice if people would stop regurgitating the ST60's input lag at its laggiest settings. :) When configured properly, people are getting high 40's-50 ms input lag. Whether this test method is accurate or not is up for debate though. Supposedly some of these tests won't work on plasmas.

I suggest anyone interested in this set test it out in store with a PS3/360 and see for yourself. Don't just believe people on the Internet who probably don't even own plasmas or ever tried this set.

I found the ST60 personally to be pretty lag-free. YMMV.
 
For those here with the ST60... is input lag something you've ever noticed or have been bothered about in the past?

Lots of people have a hard time noticing it.
 
NoLoveForFailWheelDrive said:
Sorry, I overestimated a bit. But it's more like 49-50 ms.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467481/official-st60-input-lag-thread




So yeah... it'd be nice if people would stop regurgitating the ST60's input lag at its laggiest settings. :) When configured properly, people are getting high 40's-50 ms input lag. Whether this test method is accurate or not is up for debate though. Supposedly some of these tests won't work on plasmas.

I suggest anyone interested in this set test it out in store with a PS3/360 and see for yourself. Don't just believe people on the Internet who probably don't even own plasmas or ever tried this set.

I found the ST60 personally to be pretty lag-free. YMMV.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I'm not sure I have a lot of faith in a guy clicking the Human reaction test :)

So far every Leo Bodnar test comes back with 75ms in game mode. Now the argument is it's not as accurate for Plasmas. There could be upwards of a single frame or 16ms variance. So at best you're looking at 60ms. HDTVtest used the old tried and true camera method and they recorded results between 47 and 62. This fits in with the 16ms variance from the Leo Bodnar theory.

Trust me, I WANT the ST60 to be a great gaming TV. I have been stressing a TV purchase for weeks now. Every TV I find has some sort of flaw that makes me not want it. I just want the perfect TV under $1500 to come up and say hi. However as great as the ST60 picture is, I'll definitely be picking up a PS4 at some point and I want that experience to be as good as the TV watching.

But I see videos like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs&feature=youtu.be

Compare that to the exact same test he does on the S60:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSF9972uVTI

And I just can't bring myself to pull the trigger. Even the side by side Killzone video looks pretty rough to me for the ST60.

I know people will have different tolerances for the input lag and I think your suggestion of trying it out is really the best. I wish we had a store like the old Tweeter. I would bring a console into Tweeter and I have no doubt they would have let me hook it up to test before I bought a TV. I can't imagine Best Buy letting me do that.

I do like hearing that you haven't felt the input lag as being a problem. Unfortunately it makes me not want to rule out the ST60 and keep chewing on the decision though.. jerk :)
 
Any projector gaf around? I'm thinking about getting the Epson 3020 or maybe MAYBE the 5020. Is the 5020 a lot better? And do these come down in price any time of the year?
 
dallow_bg said:
For those here with the ST60... is input lag something you've ever noticed or have been bothered about in the past?

Lots of people have a hard time noticing it.
Click to expand...

I've noticed it on some televisions, but the input lag on those was...massive. I can't say the specific model, but it was some B&O one.

I haven't really found the ST60 to be having any major issues input lag wise... I've played Super Stardust HD on it without any issues. *shrugs*
 
Septimus said:
Any projector gaf around? I'm thinking about getting the Epson 3020 or maybe MAYBE the 5020. Is the 5020 a lot better? And do these come down in price any time of the year?
Click to expand...

Projector gaf checking in. :)

Both are good projectors, but the contrast, colors and black levels are much better on the 5020. It's definitely worth the extra money. It's like the difference between a Ferarri and a Mustang.

Before you lay down the cash, you might want to consider this -

If you plan to spend most of your time watching movies, with some light gaming, then LCD projectors like the Epsons are really good. However, if it's primarily for gaming and occasional movie watching, then I would choose a DLP projector. The contrast and black levels won't be quite as good, but you'll get a much sharper image and (most importantly) lag time will be considerably better, which is important for quite a few games.
 
Canon said:
I can't use impulse mode, it bothers my eyes. I don't know what backlight strobing is.

Could you tell me the settings to get the MOST input lag? I want to see if I can tell the difference. So I can tell if I'll mind it on the ST60.

So on the w802, do I just enable everything on max? What kind of input lag would it have then?
Click to expand...

There is also clear and clear plus modes, give them a try, they are not in game mode but that will give you a good idea on what input lag would be like at its highest.
 
FutureShop had the ST60 on display, the grain (dithering) was so bad it was noticeable from 6-8 feet away. I mean you couldn't appreciate the blacks because they were so full of crap moving around. But at another store, it wasn't as noticeable. They said maybe the display model was defective.

There's always something.
 
Septimus said:
Any projector gaf around? I'm thinking about getting the Epson 3020 or maybe MAYBE the 5020. Is the 5020 a lot better? And do these come down in price any time of the year?
Click to expand...

I'd take the 5020 over the 3020 if your budget allows for it. There IS a difference between the two. I found the colours to be a bit more vibrant, the motion was smoother, and the black level/shadows were a lot better on the 5020.

September/October is usually when companies announce their latest setups so expect to see a bunch of projectors to go discontinued. Don't expect drastic price cuts on the cheaper models though.
 
GreekWolf said:
Projector gaf checking in. :)

Both are good projectors, but the contrast, colors and black levels are much better on the 5020. It's definitely worth the extra money. It's like the difference between a Ferarri and a Mustang.

Before you lay down the cash, you might want to consider this -

If you plan to spend most of your time watching movies, with some light gaming, then LCD projectors like the Epsons are really good. However, if it's primarily for gaming and occasional movie watching, then I would choose a DLP projector. The contrast and black levels won't be quite as good, but you'll get a much sharper image and (most importantly) lag time will be considerably better, which is important for quite a few games.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. So I guess the 5020 is the way to go for LCD but do you have any recommendations for DLP?
 
Canon said:
Do you have anything to compare it to?

Ah fuck it I'll probably buy it and then regret it, but I can't see any other way. Can't test games in a store.
Click to expand...
I played some 3D Burnout on a Sony tv in the store and it looked way better. But then again it was probably 4 grand. With the ST60 I think there is an obvious picture quality drop when you switch it to 3D, but its still great value overall.
 
Septimus said:
Thanks for the advice. So I guess the 5020 is the way to go for LCD but do you have any recommendations for DLP?
Click to expand...

Optoma HD25/131/HD33 Benq 1070 and Acer h9500bd are good dlp projectors in the epson 3020 price range, and the Mitsibishi 7900/8000 ore good ones in the Epson 5020 price range.

In regards to LCD vs DLP projectors:
LCD projectors
1)have higher on/off contrast (black floor and white ceiling, the biggest advantage here is in movies with lots of dark scenes, they will not look washed out)
2) brighter in general, so they are better in a living room environment that isn't light controlled

DLP projectors
1) higher ANSI contrast( intra scene contrast, you'll hear some people say DLP images 'pop' more off the screen) This is evident in scenes with normal lighting. Most DLPs can't compete with LCDs in total black level though.
2)higher motion resolution, which means no motion blur
3)Less input lag
4) if 3D matters,DLP is by far the best technology for 3D, no ghosting

In LCD and DLP projectors, the biggest factor for black levels is the dynamic iris. Most lower cost DLP projectors don't have one, which is why the LCD projectors beat them in black levels.

However the general consensus among projector owners is that JVC makes the best projectors, they use an LCOS variant and have by far the best contrast and black levels without an iris, but are also more expensive.
 
So, I am in a kind of dilemma or maybe trilemma..:P

I have these two TVs

1)Panasonic Plasma TH-37PV45EH, up to 720p or 1080i, as seen with my WiiU
2)Samsung LED UE40B700.

I will be moving in a few days and I would like your advice on which one to take with me.

For this year my sole home consoles will be the WiiU and the 360, and to be honest the absence of 1080p in my Panasonic Plasma(this is the one I ve been using so far..) makes me wonder.
On the other hand I have heard that LED are not so good for gaming and the few times I have experienced this TV, i had to put the "Gamer mode" On, in order to reduce the Lag.

Maybe I should buy a new one??:P
Thank you in advance for any tip!
 
I just tried turning on the Motionflow in the game mode on the W905, and wow; what a difference. I played a round of multiplayer in MW3, and the difference was night and day. Everything appeared incredibly crisp in motion, and though the added input lag was noticeable, the massive improvement in the clarity of motion did much to alleviate the issue. I had to increase the backlight from 6 to Max in order to compensate for the drastic decrease in brightness, though.

I've still got a few weeks to return this set if I feel like it, but so far I'm liking it, for games in the very least. My dealer called me about the ZT I had Panasonic evaluate on whether they'd fix it or not (burn-in two weeks in), and supposedly they had it fixed with a new panel. I haven't gotten a refund for it yet, so I'm pretty much 6-7k out of pocket juggling with these TVs. Of course, I intend to return one but I'm not really sure which. I'm leaning towards the Sony simply because I'm afraid that the burn-in might be an issue with long gaming sessions. Doesn't hurt that it would be roughly 1500 euros cheaper. The plasma on the other hand holds my interest with the wide viewing angles (though it isn't much of an issue when gaming), better dynamic range and those inky blacks. The extra five inches are also a factor - I'd be less interested if the Sony was available in 60'' or 65''.

I imagine it being miles better for movies (and I watch a lot of movies on Blu-ray), but even with movies I think I'd be paranoid about IR, with them being displayed in the original aspect ratio. But I'd expect the Panasonic to last me longer, in terms of LCD and other technologies catching up to it. And even if it got 'outdated', I don't think I'd ever get rid of a TV like that. Not that the Sony is garbage - it's great, especially for gaming from my first impressions.
 
I've been trying to get rid of some smudges and lines on my TV (possibly scratches but they seem to disappear and then reappear), but every time I do they just come back hours later. Any advice?
 
garath said:
Yeah. I'm not sure I have a lot of faith in a guy clicking the Human reaction test :)

So far every Leo Bodnar test comes back with 75ms in game mode. Now the argument is it's not as accurate for Plasmas. There could be upwards of a single frame or 16ms variance. So at best you're looking at 60ms. HDTVtest used the old tried and true camera method and they recorded results between 47 and 62. This fits in with the 16ms variance from the Leo Bodnar theory.

Trust me, I WANT the ST60 to be a great gaming TV. I have been stressing a TV purchase for weeks now. Every TV I find has some sort of flaw that makes me not want it. I just want the perfect TV under $1500 to come up and say hi. However as great as the ST60 picture is, I'll definitely be picking up a PS4 at some point and I want that experience to be as good as the TV watching.

But I see videos like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs&feature=youtu.be

Compare that to the exact same test he does on the S60:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSF9972uVTI

And I just can't bring myself to pull the trigger. Even the side by side Killzone video looks pretty rough to me for the ST60.

I know people will have different tolerances for the input lag and I think your suggestion of trying it out is really the best. I wish we had a store like the old Tweeter. I would bring a console into Tweeter and I have no doubt they would have let me hook it up to test before I bought a TV. I can't imagine Best Buy letting me do that.

I do like hearing that you haven't felt the input lag as being a problem. Unfortunately it makes me not want to rule out the ST60 and keep chewing on the decision though.. jerk :)
Click to expand...



Good point. Just buy the S64, that's what I ended up doing. It's an S60 with the anti-reflective coating of the ST60 so it's way better at light resistance. I love it. Got my 50" S64 from Costco for $530. 65" is only $1300.
 
NoLoveForFailWheelDrive said:
Good point. Just buy the S64, that's what I ended up doing. It's an S60 with the anti-reflective coating of the ST60 so it's way better at light resistance. I love it. Got my 50" S64 from Costco for $530. 65" is only $1300.
Click to expand...

If only it was in stock :(

I am heading over to my local one this weekend so I'll see if they have one. Also looking for their Sony 60" 550a. Its on sale right now for 1229. Hopefully one of them are in stock. I'll get a membership right then and there.
 
Since this seems like the go to thread for recommendations for TV's etc, I thought I'd ask a question here.

Will reducing the brightness on my TV reduce my chance of getting burn-in on it? I was playing Dark Souls yesterday for about 2hrs and I got burn-in of the Estus Flask on my TV. It lasted for a little while before going away, but I feel that if I played Dark Souls for a little longer then it may have lasted longer. So I looked up some information about burn-in and a lot of guides say that "burn-in occurs due to a bright image being displayed for long periods of time." So if that wording is correct, doesn't that mean that turning the brightness down will reduce the chance of getting burn-in?

I'm being very cautious about burn-in because my TV already has a burn-in of my bookmarks from my internet (it isn't terrible but can be seen if looked at hard enough), so I don't want it to happen again.

Any opinions?
 
jdejose said:
However the general consensus among projector owners is that JVC makes the best projectors, they use an LCOS variant and have by far the best contrast and black levels without an iris, but are also more expensive.
Click to expand...

Yeppers, JVC makes one of the best projectors that you can buy. I had a DLA-RS55 installed in my last HT, and I've missed it ever since I've moved to a new house.

Their current entry level projector projector is the DLA-X35...
 
Gintoki313 said:
Since this seems like the go to thread for recommendations for TV's etc, I thought I'd ask a question here.

Will reducing the brightness on my TV reduce my chance of getting burn-in on it? I was playing Dark Souls yesterday for about 2hrs and I got burn-in of the Estus Flask on my TV. It lasted for a little while before going away, but I feel that if I played Dark Souls for a little longer then it may have lasted longer. So I looked up some information about burn-in and a lot of guides say that "burn-in occurs due to a bright image being displayed for long periods of time." So if that wording is correct, doesn't that mean that turning the brightness down will reduce the chance of getting burn-in?

I'm being very cautious about burn-in because my TV already has a burn-in of my bookmarks from my internet (it isn't terrible but can be seen if looked at hard enough), so I don't want it to happen again.

Any opinions?
Click to expand...

I believe it all has to do with contrast. So if it's extremely bright and something has a hard edge on it or something like that, it can burn in. I'd say if you reduced the brightness it would probably help.
 
Poker360 said:
I believe it all has to do with contrast. So if it's extremely bright and something has a hard edge on it or something like that, it can burn in. I'd say if you reduced the brightness it would probably help.
Click to expand...

I'll reduce my contrast and brightness then, thanks. Looking at the settings it was on my contrast was a little too high.
 
Gintoki313 said:
I'll reduce my contrast and brightness then, thanks. Looking at the settings it was on my contrast was a little too high.
Click to expand...

Reducing brightness won't matter much. Reducing contrast is a good idea. Brightness and contrast should have their terms swapped in popular usage (will never happen though). Brightness controls the luminance floor (ie:black level, or the darkest areas), and contrast controls the peaks. Turning up contrast pushes the pixel phosphors harder.

kanuuna said:
I just tried turning on the Motionflow in the game mode on the W905, and wow; what a difference. I played a round of multiplayer in MW3, and the difference was night and day. Everything appeared incredibly crisp in motion, and though the added input lag was noticeable, the massive improvement in the clarity of motion did much to alleviate the issue. I had to increase the backlight from 6 to Max in order to compensate for the drastic decrease in brightness, though.
Click to expand...

Using game mode and 'impulse' from the motionflow settings should not add input lag. All its doing is inserting black frames. I haven't actually tested to see if any lag creeps in, but I'd be very surprised and dissapointed.
 
FairXchange said:
Great buy Oshan, I've got the 50S60 myself and am consistently impressed with just how good the screen performs, and for the price it's just perfect.
Click to expand...

Thanks man. The picture quality for the price is outstanding. Input lag seems minimal as well. Really happy with it.
 
WHOAguitarninja said:
Reducing brightness won't matter much. Reducing contrast is a good idea. Brightness and contrast should have their terms swapped in popular usage (will never happen though). Brightness controls the luminance floor (ie:black level, or the darkest areas), and contrast controls the peaks. Turning up contrast pushes the pixel phosphors harder.



Using game mode and 'impulse' from the motionflow settings should not add input lag. All its doing is inserting black frames. I haven't actually tested to see if any lag creeps in, but I'd be very surprised and dissapointed.
Click to expand...

Apparently it adds 1 frame of lag, 17ms to around 30ms using impulse, I can't notice it to be honest.

Still very low.
 
WHOAguitarninja said:
Reducing brightness won't matter much. Reducing contrast is a good idea. Brightness and contrast should have their terms swapped in popular usage (will never happen though). Brightness controls the luminance floor (ie:black level, or the darkest areas), and contrast controls the peaks. Turning up contrast pushes the pixel phosphors harder.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I've been looking at a pitch black Dark Souls for a little while trying to get used to it. At least I can actually see stuff now.
 
So my birthday was on Wednesday this past week and I decided to treat myself to a nice upgrade. Just got one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E3QI6IK/?tag=neogaf0e-20


Been using a 32" Toshiba 720p LCD for about 5-6 years and I thought it looked good...boy was I wrong. This new set is fantastic and I haven't even done any calibration.

Anyone have any tips on calibrating? I've been on AVS Forums but don't really know where to look. Any help will be appreciated
 
Requiem said:
So my birthday was on Wednesday this past week and I decided to treat myself to a nice upgrade. Just got one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E3QI6IK/?tag=neogaf0e-20


Been using a 32" Toshiba 720p LCD for about 5-6 years and I thought it looked good...boy was I wrong. This new set is fantastic and I haven't even done any calibration.

Anyone have any tips on calibrating? I've been on AVS Forums but don't really know where to look. Any help will be appreciated
Click to expand...

You can look for some settings online. Most review sites will share their calibrated settings. There's also usually an owners thread on avsforum where users will share their settings.

You can also grab something like the Disney WOW disc and adjust your settings that way. Read the instructions before starting.
 
Jigolo said:
I need your help folks. Does anyone know anything about this TV?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Samsung...HDTV/8491043.p?id=1218877693026&skuId=8491043

I plan on getting a new TV at BF and I want to choose between this or this:

http://store.sony.com/p/KDL-32W650A/en/p/KDL32W650A#features

Main uses for the bedroom TV. Gaming, Netflix.

I've been trying to find the input lag on the Samsung but I can't. I've already seen the one for Sony's TV so I want to compare.
Click to expand...

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue32f6400-201307183170.htm

This is, I believe, the european model of that samsung. The Leo Bodnar test is at 43ms.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl42w653-201308113237.htm

This is the sony. The Leo test on this is 15ms.
 
I'm searching for a TV screen, which I will use for my consoles aswell. Should be 1080p and not larger than 24".

Any recommendations? If it helps, I'm in germany.
 
About the Impulse Mode - is there an obvious reason behind the limited backlight brightness with having it turned on?
Even if you max out the backlight with Motionflow on, things look a bit dim. I don't mind it when playing in the dark, but I find it a tad lacking in daytime viewing. I'd like really like to understand what's with drop.
 
Impulse Mode works by strobing the backlight. Because the backlight is off at a time, the maximum brightness will appear lower than usual. Its intentional. Its also why your eyes might get sore very quickly because you might notice the flickering.
 
kanuuna said:
About the Impulse Mode - is there an obvious reason behind the limited backlight brightness with having it turned on?
Even if you max out the backlight with Motionflow on, things look a bit dim. I don't mind it when playing in the dark, but I find it a tad lacking in daytime viewing. I'd like really like to understand what's with drop.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean, I only use motionflow for gaming, but I like it pretty dim as it looks a bit more natural, my old kuro was ISF calibrated and the pic was fairly similar in that regard.

Plus it helps with the black levels, and I can't stand really grey blacks.
 
After trying a few games in 3D (Wipeout and De Blob 2 specifically, and Child of Eden) I have to say... What the hell were people hating on?

I've only tried passive 3D, but it's such a huge difference that I'd like to see every game in 3D. Everything looks so much more alive. The glasses aren't even that uncomfortable (although not preferred). I had a friend over who didn't like 3D in the movie theater, and he was blown away. He said it was like he was on acid.

Someone said 3D was like the jump from black and white to color, and that's pretty much how I feel. There's no way I'd buy a TV these days without 3D, and I went in expecting to hate it. Only negative is not many games support 3D, and there's some ghosting.

I also have a 3DS but it doesn't really compare at all to big-screen 3D, it's much more subtle.
 
I've never owned a plasma tv but I've been thinking about upgrading recently/reading a lot of positive impressions has me leaning towards one. A question I do have though: how do they handle black bars? Reading the thread it seems like burn in is not really an issue any more but would black bars being up for long periods (4:3 content/blu rays/ etc) cause issues? Or is that something you don't really have to worry about?
 
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