I've read a lot of reviews about the w802 and the black levels are the weakest point of the TV. They also suffer from clouding, dirty screen effect, and vertical banding. Still tempted to pick it up because of that 16ms game lag.
Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen
- Thread starter spannicus
- Start date
I've read a lot of reviews about the w802 and the black levels are the weakest point of the TV. They also suffer from clouding, dirty screen effect, and vertical banding. Still tempted to pick it up because of that 16ms game lag.
So if I exchange the TV I'm likely to have the same problems? I have all of those issues (not sure what "dirty screen effect" means though).
I got it for $1000 and the w900 is like $2500 cad, so it's a huge difference. If all LEDs have this problem, I may stick with it, but if there's better ones for sub-$1600 I might give them a try.
BRUTALBOWN
Banned
The whole point of the Triluminos sub pixel panel was to produce LCD screens at much cheaper cost and improve colours etc, so Sony stick a huge markup on it, that's why I didn't buy one, it annoyed me! £900 extra compared to a W8 is crazy, and I have no issue with vertical banding plus decent blacks, but does take quite a bit of mucking around for each source to get it right.
Samsung plasmas have beautiful pictures, but are marred by issues like this and they are the KINGS of image retention. SUPER sensitive. Had one for three months a few years ago and got rid of it for this reason.
I've have 10 or more Panasonic Plasmas over the years and I've never had horizontal bleed like this and only one of them (a low end U model) had image retention issues. All the rest were mid-high line units with the neoPDP displays. PERFECT displays for gaming and movie-watching.
LCDs have made progress, but the downsides to them are still too plentiful if you value picture quality.
BRUTALBOWN
Banned
Plasma's are great for movies no doubt, but I game more than I watch films and gaming on the Sony is better at it than my old 1080p Kuro.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Has anyone done an input lag test on one of the OLED tv's out there? I'm curious to see what the results are. I have a feeling it's not up to the display type and more up to the tech powering the TV however. LCD's and Plasmas are all over the place in terms of display lag :/
I think the premium is way too high. Also Passive 3D >>> Active 3D.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Very bad on the 55" Samsung OLED recently released.
This article was just published yesterday about calibrating it.
Great for movies/tv, bad for games.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1491901/calibrating-leo-laportes-samsung-kn55s9c-oled-tv
------------------
Maybe, it's about $500 more in my area over the 802.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
LOL ouch. What part of the TV dictates how quickly it displays the image? There doesn't seem to be a connection with the type of display versus the lag. Those charts are all over the place, it's nuts.
BRUTALBOWN
Banned
1080p per eye.
On 4K the Passive 3D is in theory 3840x1080 (vertical lines halved) meaning you can show 3D Blu-rays at their full resolution (1920x1080). TV's with 1920x1080pixels with Passive 3D displays at 1920x540. A resolution drop but the bright and non-flickering image + comfortable lightweight glasses (that don't need battery replacement / charging) makes it quite more practical. Passive 3D is 'the one area' where a 4K TV makes sense today.
luknotluck
Member
What's a good 1080p 60Hz for around 300 dollars I don't wanna spend too high.
ConteZero76
Member
Nope. That's a W8, not a W9. Motionflow 400Hz instead of 800Hz and some other minor drawbacks.
That's apparently the only difference per an early review and other speculation. Still waiting on more detailed reviews though.
Which really doesn't matter unless you need the extreme soap box effect.
http://reviews.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/sony-lcd-tv/sony-kdl65w850a.html
Do people really notice input lag that easily? I have tried various TVs and monitors where input lag has been somewhere between 16-50 ms and never really noticed any difference or lag. Knocking on wood.
My current TV goes about 43 ms in game mode and have been playing music and fps -games with no problem at all.
And yes, I'm usually very sensitive for that kind of issues.
Much more important factor for delivering dat gaming goodness is good black-levels, good motion resolution, deep contrast and natural, yet vibrant colors... than tinkering with few milliseconds of difference. Anything under 50ms is good enough and feels the same for me at least.
My current TV goes about 43 ms in game mode and have been playing music and fps -games with no problem at all.
And yes, I'm usually very sensitive for that kind of issues.
Much more important factor for delivering dat gaming goodness is good black-levels, good motion resolution, deep contrast and natural, yet vibrant colors... than tinkering with few milliseconds of difference. Anything under 50ms is good enough and feels the same for me at least.
I admittedly think I only actually noticed when trying Guitar Hero and really screwing up and my experience with Space Channel 5 being completely unplayable on PS2, but that does bring up the issue of genres or if you want to bank on the fact it'll make a difference you just can't consciously notice. I do suspect that's the case, that for a lot of games it may not make a big deal, but we may well conveniently "get better" with input lag minimized, especially in music games. Hatsune Miku for example just places its faith on players figuring it out for themselves, no tools to aid in setting timing up properly.
AndyMoogle
Member
I don't really notice it as long as it's less than 40ms. Well, I might notice it in some games, but it doesn't bother me that much. When it's over 60ms it starts to get very noticeable, especially if you play 2D platformers and music games. 80+ ms is a joke, and some TVs are that bad.
Do you play music games on the highest difficulty without calibration on that TV?
Yeah, I play occasional GH and DJ-H on hard, but of course I always have the game mode enabled on TV. Haven't noticed any lag whatsoever.
Without the game mode, all the picture processing enabled input-lag skyrockets to over 100ms and then it really gets noticeable quickly.
The point of my previous post was to advice people, not to make the decision solely based on input-lag, even though they would be doing a lot of serious gaming. On most cases input lag cannot even be noticed (with the game mode enabled) and far more important factor is that the general picture quality is great. For me at least.
Of course there's also models like some Panasonic Plasmas and Sony W90X which seems to get best of both worlds.
Hey, thanks for helping out. Didn't see this post. So if I'm considering the second option, should I know what DAC is? Is it just a given that thing will work? I bought this little attachment the other day that just arrived today, that goes into the optical out. Other end of it has a 3.5mm input slot. I only fiddled with it for a minute but couldn't get it to work. Is this thing much different from that?
Yeah. I'm not sure I have a lot of faith in a guy clicking the Human reaction test
So far every Leo Bodnar test comes back with 75ms in game mode. Now the argument is it's not as accurate for Plasmas. There could be upwards of a single frame or 16ms variance. So at best you're looking at 60ms. HDTVtest used the old tried and true camera method and they recorded results between 47 and 62. This fits in with the 16ms variance from the Leo Bodnar theory.
Trust me, I WANT the ST60 to be a great gaming TV. I have been stressing a TV purchase for weeks now. Every TV I find has some sort of flaw that makes me not want it. I just want the perfect TV under $1500 to come up and say hi. However as great as the ST60 picture is, I'll definitely be picking up a PS4 at some point and I want that experience to be as good as the TV watching.
But I see videos like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs&feature=youtu.be
Compare that to the exact same test he does on the S60:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSF9972uVTI
And I just can't bring myself to pull the trigger. Even the side by side Killzone video looks pretty rough to me for the ST60.
I know people will have different tolerances for the input lag and I think your suggestion of trying it out is really the best. I wish we had a store like the old Tweeter. I would bring a console into Tweeter and I have no doubt they would have let me hook it up to test before I bought a TV. I can't imagine Best Buy letting me do that.
I do like hearing that you haven't felt the input lag as being a problem. Unfortunately it makes me not want to rule out the ST60 and keep chewing on the decision though.. jerk
Is the S60 going to be a problem for me with input lag? I bought it for TV in the living room so I didn't look at input lag when I bought it. But I will probably be putting the X1 in the living room for the TV integration stuff. For comparison my current gaming TV is a TC-42 and it has been perfect for gaming.
The DAC just converts the optical digital audio into analog for your headphones. What you bought sounds similar maybe, can you post a link or model name? Whatever it is, it needs to convert the signal.
The S60 is fine, clocks in around the 30ms range. The ST60 is the one I was talking about. Unfortunately the ST60 is the gold standard for under $2k picture quality right now.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
After a month or so with my Panasonic 65" S60 I love it. The TV is a bit reflective but I have no lights opposite it so I never have issues, even with windows to the right of the TV. It definitely shines best at night though, looks great all the time but pops at night. It is the lowest input lag of the Panasonic sets I believe and I have never had any issues on any game.
I would recommend it to anyone looking for a non-3D TV to get this one. $1300 for a 65" Panny plasma of this quality is fantastic.
If anyone has questions about it let me know. Here's the setup:
Here's Rayman on it:
And football!
I would recommend it to anyone looking for a non-3D TV to get this one. $1300 for a 65" Panny plasma of this quality is fantastic.
If anyone has questions about it let me know. Here's the setup:
Here's Rayman on it:
And football!
The S60 is fine, clocks in around the 30ms range. The ST60 is the one I was talking about. Unfortunately the ST60 is the gold standard for under $2k picture quality right now.
My bad, I mistyped, I actually do have an ST60. It may be fine for me, I had some old Westinghouse pile of crap before my TC-P42G15 and once I swapped my performance in games drastically increased, No telling what the Westinghouse input lag was.
Unfortunately the TC-P42G15 is pretty old so I can't find any input lag info to compare.
I'm not your typical FPS dudebro but I do enjoy playing them and being competitive when I do. I hate being bad at a game just because of input lag.
Sure thing. It's this one.
3.5mm Mini Optical Female / Digital Optical Toslink Male Adapter
http://amzn.com/B000I97H68
The S60 is fine, clocks in around the 30ms range. The ST60 is the one I was talking about. Unfortunately the ST60 is the gold standard for under $2k picture quality right now.
You can get the VT60 for under $2k (except for 65") by looking around or pricematch.
That converts one form of optical to another. If you wanted standard analog 3.5mm (headphone, generally) audio, that's not what you needed. Does your TV have analog audio outs (they'd be Red/White and probably labeled OUT)? If so, you can get an RCA to 3.5mm adapter like this one. You plug those into your TV's analog audio outs and then your headphones into that.
If you actually did need to convert one form of optical connection to another for some reason, I digress.
If your TV doesn't have analog audio outs, you'd need a standalone DAC that can take optical and turn it into analog. There are infinite options for DAC's, with Fiio probably making the cheapest ones.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
After agonizing over this decision for a month I finally pulled the trigger:
Panasonic VIERA TC-P50ST60
Reading the forum at AVS people are reporting with the latest firmware they don't feel the input lag is a issue at all and that was the one thing standing in the way.
Feels so good to have just chosen something.
Panasonic VIERA TC-P50ST60
Reading the forum at AVS people are reporting with the latest firmware they don't feel the input lag is a issue at all and that was the one thing standing in the way.
Feels so good to have just chosen something.
Ah yes. This is for connecting a mini-optical cable, which just happens to be 3.5mm but it's still digital.
The DAC I posted should do the trick. Connect the optical cable from the audio out on the TV to the optical in on the DAC. Then your headphone cable plugs into the 3.5mm line out. There's a power supply of course, so it will take up an outlet. If your consoles are connected to the TV using HDMI or optical, set your consoles' audio output to 2-channel/stereo PCM since the DAC doesn't support any surround sound stuff.
thekonamicode
Member
I have been close to pulling the trigger one that exact model for a week now. I look forward to reading your impressions!
I do have analogue audio outs, and the headphones I have already came with that attachment. Couldn't get it to work any way I tried, so I guess the DAC thing is my only option.
I'll pick up what you posted, EasyMode. Thanks for the help, guys.
Look forward to hearing your impressions!
I've decided that I want nothing smaller than a 55", preferably a 60". I'm reaching the end of my budget looking at this ST60. I'm still currently leaning toward the Panasonic 58" e60 LCD.
True, if the PQ was completely awful or it had aspects I didn't like like locking 4:3 content into widescreen or (for newer TVs at least) not allowing cropping to be disabled they'd be deal breakers, and even beyond that half the reason to go with a TV over a cheap monitor is for a giant screen (comparatively), older console support without buying a special box, generally acceptable inbuilt speakers, and obviously being able to WATCH TV if you didn't cut the cord in an area with poor antenna reception. Still, the Sony TVs sound largely good (At least the newer ones) and as noted the Panasonic plasmas are legendary, so we can eat our cake and have it too... though I guess the price just comes out as literally very expensive TVs.
I concur with this. I picked up the S64, which is the Costco equivalent of the S60, and it's been great. Deep blacks and great colors after plugging in settings from the avs forums. I've noticed no input lag and would highly recommend this set.
Wishmaster92
Member
Make sure to look for d-nice's calibration settings bro. They make a world of difference, trust me.
thekonamicode
Member
Is that in the AVS thread?
Dude it's an amazing TV
I already linked him to them
If anyone else wants them, they're here.
http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6914&postcount=2
santeesioux
Member
For my headphones, i just bought a headphone amp off of amazon, it works perfectly.
i was telling all that to my wife when we looked at W6, W8 and W9, next to each other... and heck, in the showroom, we couldnt tell the difference.
kind of killed the idea of spending a lot of money on W9 for me... not that it isnt great, but I obviously cant tell the difference so why go all the way.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Thanks so much for the help Nib. Can't wait to get this thing
Haint
Member
I'm reasonably confident you could side-by-side Panasonic's entire like-year 1080p PDP line up in a pitch dark blind comparison and no one could realistically tell them apart. I purchased a 50U50 for a guest room last year expecting it to be crap and it outperformed my primary 55GT30 per Calman 4.5 and an i1Display Pro. Not exactly apples to apples to be fair about (2011 Vs. 2012, remember XX40's do not exist due to the Japanese superstition of 4 and death), but Panasonic does not cripple these lowest end models. I have little doubt you're talking less than 5% performance difference across the S60, ST60, and VT60, so unless you HAVE to have 3D or the step up AR coatings, I think people are going about it all wrong in convincing themselves the PQ improvements are readily apparent and a fair trade for the additional lag (significant in the ST's case) at up to twice the price.
Megapsychotron
Banned
The vertical resolution would be 1080p. I gues in theory with 4K material, you could have 3840 horizontal resolution, but I don't think current HDMI will pass that much information.
If we are talking about 1080p panels, I prefer active, for the full resolution and no window blinding. I'm looking into a 4K set passive as my next purchase, so that 3D blu-ray can finally be full resolution in passive 3D.
thebigkahuna
Member
Have you noticed any banding? Also, (I know pictures can't do a TV justice while looking through a different display but want to see it anyway) can you post pictures of it displaying games? I'm still trying to decide between this and the F8500 plasma. Thanks.
Stillmatic
Member
Awesome, I'm looking at getting the same set in a couple of months, so I'd be really interested to read your impressions after you get some time with it. Of course my main concern is input lag, whether there's any noticeable disadvantages with 30fp/60fps games.