Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen
- Thread starter spannicus
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mdrejhon
Member
I'm the owner of a popular 120Hz portal for motion fluidity nuts, "Blur Busters", so here's some sage knowledge:
-- I should point out that there are several models of HDTV's that can overclock HDMI to 120Hz true native refresh rate. This is a new development, since most HDTV's can't accept 120Hz over HDMI, until recently.
-- Also, HDGuru found that the LG OLED TV has the same amount of motion blur as a 60hz LCD, as the OLED TV's are still prone to the sample-and-hold effect that LCD's have. It's also noteworthy that Blur Busters also wrote a popular article on this, but I will refrain tooting that here. Plus, the japanese scientists wrote in Journal of Vision with scientific measurements about OLED being significantly worse than CRT in motion blur (especially see Figure 19, zoom that to full size).
-- Also, if you have a new high-end Sony HDTV that has the low-lag "Motionflow Impulse" strobe backlight setting, try using that, because Impulse has low lag, is interpolation-free, and available in Game Mode. It adds a CRT-style or plasma-style flicker (strobe backlight) and produces the CRT effect, with about 4x clearer motion with zero interpolation artifacts. (Utilizing 3:1 blackframe insertion, 75%:25% dark:bright, the motion blurring shorten to approximately 1/4th the original amount during Impulse; which is impressive for an LCD) It's worth noting that these Sony HDTV's have 4:4:4 chroma and low input lag, so they are generally good for console gaming. Do be warned that you need 60fps@60Hz for the full CRT effect benefits, since it does not use interpolation, most console games often do only 30fps.
Sony HDTV models HX920 Series, HX923 Series, HX925 Series, HX929 Series, XBR-55HX950, XBR-65HX950, KDL-47W802A (Budget), KDL-55w802A (Budget), KDL-55W900A, W905A Series, XBR-55X900A (4K Ultra), XBR-65X900A (4K Ultra)
-- For the best CRT-quality plasma, check out the Panasonic NeoPlasma panels. Albiet discontinued, they are among the most CRT-quality panels, and also supports true 120Hz input refresh rate from a computer, too. If you want the elite of CRT-quality zero motion blur in a plasma for console and computer gaming, these plasma panels have been coveted by CRT diehards:
Panasonic Models using NeoPlasma glass: Panasonic 42PF50U, 50PF50U, 60PF50U, 65PF50U, 42BT300U, 50BT300U, 65VX300U
-- I should point out that there are several models of HDTV's that can overclock HDMI to 120Hz true native refresh rate. This is a new development, since most HDTV's can't accept 120Hz over HDMI, until recently.
-- Also, HDGuru found that the LG OLED TV has the same amount of motion blur as a 60hz LCD, as the OLED TV's are still prone to the sample-and-hold effect that LCD's have. It's also noteworthy that Blur Busters also wrote a popular article on this, but I will refrain tooting that here. Plus, the japanese scientists wrote in Journal of Vision with scientific measurements about OLED being significantly worse than CRT in motion blur (especially see Figure 19, zoom that to full size).
-- Also, if you have a new high-end Sony HDTV that has the low-lag "Motionflow Impulse" strobe backlight setting, try using that, because Impulse has low lag, is interpolation-free, and available in Game Mode. It adds a CRT-style or plasma-style flicker (strobe backlight) and produces the CRT effect, with about 4x clearer motion with zero interpolation artifacts. (Utilizing 3:1 blackframe insertion, 75%:25% dark:bright, the motion blurring shorten to approximately 1/4th the original amount during Impulse; which is impressive for an LCD) It's worth noting that these Sony HDTV's have 4:4:4 chroma and low input lag, so they are generally good for console gaming. Do be warned that you need 60fps@60Hz for the full CRT effect benefits, since it does not use interpolation, most console games often do only 30fps.
Sony HDTV models HX920 Series, HX923 Series, HX925 Series, HX929 Series, XBR-55HX950, XBR-65HX950, KDL-47W802A (Budget), KDL-55w802A (Budget), KDL-55W900A, W905A Series, XBR-55X900A (4K Ultra), XBR-65X900A (4K Ultra)
-- For the best CRT-quality plasma, check out the Panasonic NeoPlasma panels. Albiet discontinued, they are among the most CRT-quality panels, and also supports true 120Hz input refresh rate from a computer, too. If you want the elite of CRT-quality zero motion blur in a plasma for console and computer gaming, these plasma panels have been coveted by CRT diehards:
Panasonic Models using NeoPlasma glass: Panasonic 42PF50U, 50PF50U, 60PF50U, 65PF50U, 42BT300U, 50BT300U, 65VX300U
Nice. I will have to try it on my 55HX950.
mdrejhon
Member
When you enable the Impulse mode during Game Mode, make sure you turn off the ambient light sensor, to make Impulse brighter.
Also, find a 60fps@60Hz game to test with; it benefits those far more than the 30fps games.
Awesome information, thank you. I'll definitely bookmark your site.
Z
ZombieFred
Unconfirmed Member
Wow,wow,wow,wow,wow....WOW! Holy fuck, This TV is so fucking incredible! I've just tested everything from a Blue Ray film and all the way to playing Witcher 2 in 1080p ultimate 60fps and it looks fucking marvelous with the crystal insane clear colour and quality I am getting displayed, and the latency is damn Epic.
I love you guys, it really is the ultimate choice!!! D: <3<3
Do they make it in a 50in model?
Bill Rizer
Member
This could already be seen on smartphones or Vita OLED. They blur as much as an LCD.
Reading that article from Japanese researches, it seems they aren't even fast enough to implement some sort of impulse lighting or strobing.
Well, I'm set with tv for some more years, I hope plasma tvs will be still made when I'll have to switch to 4K (I fear not).
50, 55 and 65, in Europe at least.
Best TV on the market along with the ZT and Samsung's F8500 series. Can't wait to throw out my VT30 and buy that bad boy.
SirMossyBloke
Member
Over clock hdmi lol what did I just read.
My E701i-A3 would say otherwise. It's a great TV, one of the few without a mirror finish and very respectable input lag in game mode, and it was $1499 almost a year ago. I have to say 70" is the size where 1080p starts not becoming enough sometimes, any larger and I'd like 4k.
Neuromancer
Member
Will the 3D glasses that come with the P65VT60 fit over my regular glasses? I forgot to try them on at the store.
ostrichKing
Member
Worked fine over mine...love LOVE my VT60...really great tv...
runningjoke
Member
I have a 46W9 since this week, I really really hate this strobing effect. It's why I could never use a CRT at 60 hz (85Hz was fine) and probably won't use the 3d glasses for more than 5 minutes.
Because the input lag difference is minor and the picture quality, motion resolution, and blacks destroy Sony's LCD's. It's not even a contest.
You're focusing too much on one thing that I'd bet $100 you couldn't even perceive in real world testing. But the difference in image quality is massive.
i'm literally about to pull the trigger and buy this LED TV because i found out it is available in my country.
but before that, how does LED fare against Plasma generally?
i have a 42 inch Plasma and i'm ditching it because it has like 46-50 ms of input lag. i want to be aware of what i should expect since i've never had a LED TV before.
but before that, how does LED fare against Plasma generally?
i have a 42 inch Plasma and i'm ditching it because it has like 46-50 ms of input lag. i want to be aware of what i should expect since i've never had a LED TV before.
Melchiah
Member
The thing what baffles me is, that the input lag was used as a bullet point against LCDs in the past around here, but now when the tables have been turned, it's suddenly an insignificant matter.
There's still the issue of image retention/burn-in with game HUDs, let alone if you plan to use the TV for PC. I'm not arguing that plasmas wouldn't be better for movies, but LCDs are more hassle-free and safe choices for gaming.
I personally tend to leave the TV open for the whole day during weekends, often on the same channel, and I wouldn't want to change my habits to avoid the channel logos and black bars to affect the display.
Oddly enough, plasmas don't seem to be that popular here in Finland, as I don't know anyone who owns one.
Ahh. I'm in the U.S. Can't seem to find that particular model in 50in.
Azwethinkweiz
Member
Bodnar gives very inaccurate input lag results for Plasma, by the way.
Bill Rizer
Member
My Pana UT50 (european) is exactly, precisely on par with the WiiU gamepad, which is rated for 16 ms, and which is incidentially the same result given by crt method on my tv. They are a blink behind my crt.
So, in the case of plasma, crt method is still maybe the most reliable.
Toothless Spoon
Member
got this D: coming tommrow 55 inches
dude is this the Samsung UA55F8000?
Also I really can't bring myself to buy a plasma over an LCD for gaming, I don't know why.
Best PQ and the input lag is low enough.
That's fine, it's ok to buy a LCD instead.
Melchiah
Member
Oh, I didn't know that. So, you're saying the numbers are incorrect?
I don't know why either. what do you mean by "bring yourself to"? What do you have against plasma?
I miss Pioneer TV's.
I have a 2007 Kuro and I wish my next TV could be a Pioneer, but I won't need one until probably RED is standard, lol.
Melchiah
Member
Eventhough +40ms input lag used to be seen as too high around here?
Toothless Spoon
Member
I don't know why either. what do you mean by "bring yourself to"? What do you have against plasma?
I miss Pioneer TV's.
hahaha I guess I might be a LCD fanboy
ACH1LL3US
Member
So I just grabbed the other week a Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro110fd (1080p) for $600!! Its mint and I have been putting it through its paces in games. Going from a Samsung F7100 55inch LED to this plasma is a stark difference. The Samsung was larger and much thinner, gave off no heat really. The input lag.... it feels to me that the Samsung was quicker, I know its rated 38ms but the Pioneer in Game mode with the control pref on for games it just feels .... heavier.
Anyone have experience with the Pioneer Kuro for games? What is your take on the input lag on it? I can't seem to find any numbers for them except the 768p model 8g which Mathesar on AVSforums had clocked 28ms in pc mode on it.
The contrast,color depth and motion resolution on the Pioneer destroys the Samsung F7100 though, I was really surprised by that
Whites are a million times better on the Samsung and the Samsung in PC mode runs 4:4:4 chroma so to me... the Samsung looks sharper then the 50 Pioneer for games... that kinda bothers me because this tv will be for next gen goodness mainly.
Anyone have experience with the Pioneer Kuro for games? What is your take on the input lag on it? I can't seem to find any numbers for them except the 768p model 8g which Mathesar on AVSforums had clocked 28ms in pc mode on it.
The contrast,color depth and motion resolution on the Pioneer destroys the Samsung F7100 though, I was really surprised by that
Whites are a million times better on the Samsung and the Samsung in PC mode runs 4:4:4 chroma so to me... the Samsung looks sharper then the 50 Pioneer for games... that kinda bothers me because this tv will be for next gen goodness mainly.
Toothless Spoon
Member
Ok, I think if I bite the bullet - it will be out of these 3:
55 Inch Full HD 3D LED LCD 200Hz SMART TV
Pros:
- Low input lag 16.9ms
- It's a good brand
- TRILUMINOS™
- 4 x 3D glassess
- Motionflow
Cons:
- Deeper/thicker than most LED LCD's
- Price is a little steep for the features - compared to other tv features.
Price: $2998
Series 8 55inch F8000 LED TV
Pros:
- Super thin
- Super sexy
- Features galore
- upgradable
Cons:
- Price
- Samsung panels seem up and down in quality
Price: $3498
Panasonic TH-P65VT60A65" Full-HD 3D NeoPlasma
Pros:
- Tops a lot of charts for best TV
- Panasonic leading Plasma brand
Cons:
- Screen burn still an issue.
- Price
Price: $3998
It seems a few, if not all of these have been talked about on here - I've even been swayed by the panasonic plasma.
EDIT: Did I say 3....just saw this and its around the same price as the samsung...70"!!
SONY 70" R550A FULL HD LED SMART 3D TV
Pros:
- 200 Hz
- 70"
- Good brand
Cons:
- Not that many features
- older gen
Price: $3996
55 Inch Full HD 3D LED LCD 200Hz SMART TV
Pros:
- Low input lag 16.9ms
- It's a good brand
- TRILUMINOS™
- 4 x 3D glassess
- Motionflow
Cons:
- Deeper/thicker than most LED LCD's
- Price is a little steep for the features - compared to other tv features.
Price: $2998
Series 8 55inch F8000 LED TV
Pros:
- Super thin
- Super sexy
- Features galore
- upgradable
Cons:
- Price
- Samsung panels seem up and down in quality
Price: $3498
Panasonic TH-P65VT60A65" Full-HD 3D NeoPlasma
Pros:
- Tops a lot of charts for best TV
- Panasonic leading Plasma brand
Cons:
- Screen burn still an issue.
- Price
Price: $3998
It seems a few, if not all of these have been talked about on here - I've even been swayed by the panasonic plasma.
EDIT: Did I say 3....just saw this and its around the same price as the samsung...70"!!
SONY 70" R550A FULL HD LED SMART 3D TV
Pros:
- 200 Hz
- 70"
- Good brand
Cons:
- Not that many features
- older gen
Price: $3996
So I just grabbed the other week a Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro110fd (1080p) for $600!! Its mint and I have been putting it through its paces in games. Going from a Samsung F7100 55inch LED to this plasma is a stark difference. The Samsung was larger and much thinner, gave off no heat really. The input lag.... it feels to me that the Samsung was quicker, I know its rated 38ms but the Pioneer in Game mode with the control pref on for games it just feels .... heavier.
Anyone have experience with the Pioneer Kuro for games? What is your take on the input lag on it? I can't seem to find any numbers for them except the 768p model 8g which Mathesar on AVSforums had clocked 28ms in pc mode on it.
The contrast,color depth and motion resolution on the Pioneer destroys the Samsung F7100 though, I was really surprised by that
you should check out AVS Forum and get recommended settings for your Kuro. Very likely it'll tell you to turn off all processing for one - that helps any input lag a ton. I don't have any issues with lag on my 5010FD
This thread is out of control when it comes to referring to LED TVs. Almost all LED TVs on the market are LCD TVs with LED backlighting. An LCD TV with LED backlighting still has all the inherent gaming issues as a normal LCD.
http://reviews.cnet.com/led-tvs-review-10-things-you-need-to-know
Haint
Member
I'm pretty sure DF measured the real world Upad lag at ~2 frames (32ms).
FrankNitty
Member
So I wrote up a review of the ZT60 on AVS. If anyone wants to take a look. First time doing this so this is what being at work bored creates. Not bad for first try at a review.
http://www.avsforum.com/products/panasonic-viera-tc-p65zt60-65-inch-plasma-hdtv/reviews/4322
http://www.avsforum.com/products/panasonic-viera-tc-p65zt60-65-inch-plasma-hdtv/reviews/4322
The W900 or VT60, IMO. Picking between the two is a matter of priorities. Here's where each excels:
Black levels: VT60
Brightness: W900
Viewing angles: VT60
Input lag: W900 (not bad on the VT60 though)
Color: Tie (Surprising!, Triluminos is no joke. Both displays pop without crushing color.)
Less Babysitting: W900 (no image retention to worry about)
Motion: This is complicated to answer. The VT60 has great motion resolution, but also has phosphor trailing. Not everyone is sensitive to this though. The W900 is capably of great motion resolution in Impulse mode but loses a lot of brightness in doing so, otherwise you can expect the usual LCD motion blur. If you don't see phosphor trailing, then plasma wins easily, otherwise it's about which bothers you less.
I personally like the W900 better for games and the VT60 better for movies and TV (except hockey due to the brightness.)
Stay away from the F8000 and 70" Sony.
Between the W900 and the VT60...both are great. I dunno. If primarily for gaming for the W900, if primarily for Film then go for the VT. Normally id just say get the VT, but if you feel you will be constantly paranoid about burn in...
Between the W900 and the VT60...both are great. I dunno. If primarily for gaming for the W900, if primarily for Film then go for the VT. Normally id just say get the VT, but if you feel you will be constantly paranoid about burn in...
WHOAguitarninja
Member
This is a pretty excellent breakdown, as my decision was between these two as well. I ended up going with the W900 almost entirely due to the lack of a need to babysit. The TV is in my livingroom and my room mates will happily leave images on the screen for extended periods of time and watch lots of 4:3 content. If it was just for myself I would've gone VT60. I have a UT50 in my bedroom which I also love (and for the price, you can't beat). A little plasma here, a little LED there. Works out well for me.
And yeah, the colors on the W900 are really, really surprising. It's what I was most worried about, but you're right. Triluminous is the real deal.
Melchiah
Member
That's the general consensus I've come up with from the reviews I've read as well.
"Burn in" doesn't exist anymore. image retention wasn't even really a problem 5 years ago. Now it shouldn't even ever happen. Not with normal use - meaning not at airports with screens in grids for 5 years straight.
Azwethinkweiz
Member
Based on what I read at the link below(go about halfway down the page), yes, the numbers are incorrect. I would guess all the Panasonics are sub 30ms input lag.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1166196/the-official-plasma-input-lag-thread/750
PENDRAGON said:
Wow, if that's true, my S60 and S64 truly are epic. I knew that it didn't have any more lag than my old LG LK450.
Melchiah
Member
Odd, that they haven't corrected it on the other site, as that kind of screw up decreases their reliability.
Toothless Spoon
Member
Wow thanks heaps for the feedback, too many people to quote so I'll just thank everyone - looks like W900 might be the way to go? Here in Australia I'd pay an extra $1000 for VT60 and another 10"...
I should ask has anyone got one?
Side note - Why not the F8000 from samsung?
I should ask has anyone got one?
Side note - Why not the F8000 from samsung?
dishwasherlove
Member
Check out the Whirlpool forums for the lowest price. Looks like you can get the W900 for under 3000. I'm looking at the moment too and really can't justify 4000 for the vt60 at the moment... Especially when my 46 inch old Bravia works fine.
Toothless Spoon
Member
Yeah I've been looking around for prices on the W900 and 2900 is the cheapest I've found so far - 3700 for the VT60. Every review I read say the VT60 is superior to most tv's out.
I leaning toward sony because of the price - but my 52" sony at the moment still works fine - I really want a step up from that. It's not LED backlighting so that will be the biggest improvement, but I want some more tech.
EDIT: For $5K you can get a 4K TV - although they are only 100Hz, and the sony looks weird with the speakers on the side.
Big Baybee
Member
Recently purchased an S60 and am extremely happy with it. I thought glare would be an issue but it has not been a problem in my living room. Plus I only got it for $288 dollars since I got a $500 best buy gift card with the purchase of my new huge ass sofa.
eighty(one)
Member
Picked this TV:
http://m.costco.com/LG-55"-Class-10...3D-Smart-HDTV-55LA6970.product.100040031.html
Did I do alright?
WiiU looks good on the screen, have higher hopes for PS4 ^_^
Tried Batman Arkham City Armored Edition and the 3D is awesome!
http://m.costco.com/LG-55"-Class-10...3D-Smart-HDTV-55LA6970.product.100040031.html
Did I do alright?
WiiU looks good on the screen, have higher hopes for PS4 ^_^
Tried Batman Arkham City Armored Edition and the 3D is awesome!
Is plasma better than this LED monitor? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007M4UUF2/?tag=neogaf0e-20
I have nothing to complain about this display, it's pretty good. But everytime I read about how plasma is better, I wonder if I did the right choice.
I have nothing to complain about this display, it's pretty good. But everytime I read about how plasma is better, I wonder if I did the right choice.
Jigolo
Member
I need your help folks. Does anyone know anything about this TV?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Samsung...HDTV/8491043.p?id=1218877693026&skuId=8491043
I plan on getting a new TV at BF and I want to choose between this or this:
http://store.sony.com/p/KDL-32W650A/en/p/KDL32W650A#features
Main uses for the bedroom TV. Gaming, Netflix.
I've been trying to find the input lag on the Samsung but I can't. I've already seen the one for Sony's TV so I want to compare.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Samsung...HDTV/8491043.p?id=1218877693026&skuId=8491043
I plan on getting a new TV at BF and I want to choose between this or this:
http://store.sony.com/p/KDL-32W650A/en/p/KDL32W650A#features
Main uses for the bedroom TV. Gaming, Netflix.
I've been trying to find the input lag on the Samsung but I can't. I've already seen the one for Sony's TV so I want to compare.