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PlayStation 6, Xbox Next Could Deliver The Biggest Generational Leap With Machine Learning; Current Generation Was Oversold

Lunatic_Gamer

Lunatic_Gamer

Gold Member
PS5.jpg


Speaking during their podcast, the tech experts discussed the yet-to-be-revealed next-generation systems, saying that machine learning is likely to play a big part in the aforementioned generational leap. We are already starting to see this in both the PC and console space, with the widespread adoption of NVIDIA DLSS, which is powered by machine learning, and the PlayStation Spectral Super Resolution, which will be introduced with the upcoming PlayStation 5 Pro.

According to Digital Foundry, the surface has been barely scratched regarding what machine learning is capable of, as, right now, it's been used for denoising ray tracing with NVIDIA DLSS Ray Reconstruction. Many are the applications that are being researched, such as material and texture quality improvements and even geometry, so some of these machine learning-powered features could make the difference between the PlayStation 6 and the next Xbox over their predecessors, potentially making these systems the real 4K resolution, 60 FPS machines the current generation consoles were said to be.

Speaking about current consoles, Digital Foundry has no doubt that both the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X were oversold. 4K resolution at 60 frames per second was impossible to achieve without PS4 and Xbox One level of visuals, and it was known from the start, mostly due to insufficient GPU bandwidth. Other features that were talked about before release ended up being unused, as many of them are expensive to implement.



With machine learning likely to have a major impact on future consoles like the PlayStation 6, it will be very interesting how its first introduction in the console space, the PlayStation 5 Pro, will fare. Thankfully, it seems like we won't have to wait much longer to see more of the PlayStation Spectral Super Resolution, as the mid-generation refresh is rumored to be revealed this month.

wccftech.com

PlayStation 6, Xbox Next Could Deliver The Biggest Generational Leap With Machine Learning; Current Generation Was Oversold

Next generation consoles like the PlayStation 6 and the Xbox Next will likely deliver the teased massive generational leap with machine learning
wccftech.com wccftech.com
 
RetroGamingUK

RetroGamingUK

Member
I think we’re getting to the point now where most people (outside of NeoGaf, ResetEra and Digital Foundry) are more than happy with the current level of graphics. Barely anyone outside America has a 70” TV so resolution isn’t as important as many here think.

Just look at how popular the PS4 still is 4 years after its successor launched, or how well the Switch is still selling.

I’ll likely get a PS6 as they’ve consistently kept me happy, but from here on out any improvements should be about reducing costs, both for consumers and developers.
 
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Mownoc

Mownoc

Member
Every generation is oversold. Anyone else remember before the Xbox One launch the nonsense MS was peddling about how the Xbox One was going to utilise the cloud to be 32-40 times more powerful than the Xbox 360?

"Matt Booty, general manager of Redmond Game Studios and Platforms, recently told Ars Technica, "a rule of thumb we like to use is that [for] every Xbox One available in your living room we'll have three of those devices in the cloud available," suggesting some 5TF of processing power for your games, a sentiment echoing Australian Microsoft spokesperon Adam Pollington's assertion that Xbox One was 40 times more powerful than the Xbox 360."

318110-nube-microsoft-aporta-potencia-3-xbox-one.jpg



To go from 1080p30 to 4k60 basically requires the entire power jump from PS4 to PS5, so no one should have been expecting that along with a big bump in graphics. I'm not disappointed in this generation at all though, finally 60fps is available for most console games and they load fast and they run at a higher resolution. There may not be many games released that are a huge leap in graphics besides resolution, but they do exist. Ratchet Rift Apart and Demon's Souls for example both look far better than just a PS4 game running at a higher res/fps.

But performance (frame rate and resolution) is the reason that I periodically leave consoles for PC, I find it far more important for enjoying games than pushing crazy visuals. So for me personally, this generation has given exactly what I want.

AI is definitely going to be the big driving force in the next generation of consoles. AI Upscaling and Framegen gives a huge boost in performance at a vastly cheaper price than just making the CPU/GPU more powerful.
 
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SweetTooth

SweetTooth

Gold Member
Am I the only one who thinks both PS5/Series X are excellently designed HW that both punch beyoned their specs?

This gen is providing us with really stable fps performance with multiple options. Yes there are some exceptions and some poorly optimized games but still we are far cry from 7th gen (PS3, X360) regarding fluctuating performance.

Also performance degredation is not exclusive to consoles, the more you add features to your game (RTX, higher resolution, 120fps and beyond ... etc) the more taxing it becomes to render even for the highest end of PC GPUs. It has been this way forever.
 
Stu_Hart

Stu_Hart

Member
I just want a gen where I can play games at native 4k at 60 fps with all of the effects at max on consoles. I don't need 8k, nor do I want to see a push for it given how these current consoles are still struggling with running 4k games at 60 fps that are not last gen games.
 
Kuranghi

Kuranghi

Member
RetroGamingUK said:
I think we’re getting to the point now where most people (outside of NeoGaf, ResetEra and Digital Foundry) are more than happy with the current level of graphics. Barely anyone outside America has a 70” TV so resolution isn’t as important as many here think.

Just look at how popular the PS4 still is 4 years after its successor launched, or how well the Switch is still selling.

I’ll likely get a PS6 as they’ve consistently kept me happy, but from here on out any improvements should be about reducing costs, both for consumers and developers.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree about TV sizing.

I'm a TV salesman in the UK and 65" is the most common size I sell to people who would play games, with a very large amount of people buying 75s and then also 85s are 10x more common than they were even 6 years ago when I was fresher in the role.

I work in a small example of a major retailer and even there I've sold 10+ 98" and 100" TVs since they became available for delivery in Jan 2024. So even stupid sizes are the realm of wealthy people anymore, you can buy an entry level spec 98" TV for £1799 today and ultra high spec 98s and a 100" for less than 3 grand.

Also, this is a football obsessed nation and people want giant TVs to see the game better, so my younger customers are getting much arger sizes for console gaming as a by product of that.

I have to tell people they need to upgrade their Netflix to the top tier or get Sky Q/Virgin 4K if they don't want their new 75" TV (that they're sitting 3-4m away from) to be blurry and disappointing vs. the 4K HDR trailers/content I've shown them in the shop.

Sure HDR and colour is used heavily to sell new TVs, but ime resolution and contrast is the most important factor for drawing average joes in and higher resolutions increase perceived contrast and colour saturation.
 
don-mika

don-mika

Neo Member
we still dont know how exactly is will affect industry, so its little to soon to make any conclusions. Maybe PS7 or even PS8
 
M1chl

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
SweetTooth said:
Am I the only one who thinks both PS5/Series X are excellently designed HW that both punch beyoned their specs?

This gen is providing us with really stable fps performance with multiple options. Yes there are some exceptions and some poorly optimized games but still we are far cry from 7th gen (PS3, X360) regarding fluctuating performance.

Also performance degredation is not exclusive to consoles, the more you add features to your game (RTX, higher resolution, 120fps and beyond ... etc) the more taxing it becomes to render even for the highest end of PC GPUs. It has been this way forever.
Click to expand...
Yes to an extent, because not many devs are even taking advantage of that HW, given how many games are coming to old consoles as well. Despite what one might think, the APIs these consoles are using isn't the equivalent of PC Vulkan/DX12 (not the mention even now a lot of games are still DX11 even on PC), but rather cut down version customly tailored to each gen of consoles. If you want to make both versions, you can absolutely compiled it with higher gen SDK, but you still cannot use specific optimisations for newer HW. Thus pretty tiny minority of games are actually done with fully featured APIs. Which is a big shame. More over you can pretty easily cut some graphics settings from a game, but you can't easily cut CPU related tasks, which is major pain, given how bad CPUs were on last gen.

If they were, we would see much more games like Metro Exodus: EE with full RT pipeline at 60FPS. But again, that's maybe why we see so many games having 60hz/120hz options. Which is great, but leap in graphics, physics, AI and so on, would probably be better for a lot of people. So that's why we see a lot of empty open worlds, with limited interactivity, because even old consoles had. ton of memory, but not enough muscle to pull anything interesting.

Obviously bloated budgets won't help this and linear campaigns games age is probably sadly over.
 
ShirAhava

ShirAhava

Plays with kids toys, in the adult gaming world
PS4/Xbox One was the last "real" generation

I don't think a future worth a damn is coming ps5/series sure as hell wasn't it
the people that are happy with current gen would be happy with anything
the tech isn't the issue anymore the good "quality/quantity" days are over
 
hemo memo

hemo memo

You can't die before your death
That’s a lot of hyperbole. We’re still calling this gen (next gen). I believe that actual next gen of consoles are going to be the most useless yet.
 
PeteBull

PeteBull

Member
If u guys wanna guess how games gonna look next gen- look what current top pc hardware can deliver, next xbox and ps6 will be roughly in the ballpark of current top pc so r7 7800x3d and rtx 4090, i say roughly in the ballpark coz it could be bit stronger, maybe 20 to 50% stronger, but not more.



Just for comparision thats maxed ass creed unity, that launched nov 2014, still looks comparable and sometimes better from most current gen only console games


launched in june 2015 arkham knight, maxed on 3080


launched in oct 2018, rdr2 maxed


Now lets compare it to console quality current gen only games




in most cases those current gen only exclusives are either 30fps capped or pixelated af or with other visible in ur face ugly shit, which makes them overall looking worse from maxed last gen pc version of games.
 
The Cockatrice

The Cockatrice

Gold Member
PeteBull said:
If u guys wanna guess how games gonna look next gen- look what current top pc hardware can deliver, next xbox and ps6 will be roughly in the ballpark of current top pc so r7 7800x3d and rtx 4090, i say roughly in the ballpark coz it could be bit stronger, maybe 20 to 50% stronger, but not more.



Just for comparision thats maxed ass creed unity, that launched nov 2014, still looks comparable and sometimes better from most current gen only console games


launched in june 2015 arkham knight, maxed on 3080


launched in oct 2018, rdr2 maxed


Now lets compare it to console quality current gen only games




in most cases those current gen only exclusives are either 30fps capped or pixelated af or with other visible in ur face ugly shit, which makes them overall looking worse from maxed last gen pc version of games.
Click to expand...


Horizon Forbidden West and The Last of US 2 proves that its not the system thats the problem, it's the people making games. Metro Exodus runs at 60 FPS 4k and its full raytraced.
 
M1chl

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
PeteBull said:
If u guys wanna guess how games gonna look next gen- look what current top pc hardware can deliver, next xbox and ps6 will be roughly in the ballpark of current top pc so r7 7800x3d and rtx 4090, i say roughly in the ballpark coz it could be bit stronger, maybe 20 to 50% stronger, but not more.



Just for comparision thats maxed ass creed unity, that launched nov 2014, still looks comparable and sometimes better from most current gen only console games


launched in june 2015 arkham knight, maxed on 3080


launched in oct 2018, rdr2 maxed


Now lets compare it to console quality current gen only games




in most cases those current gen only exclusives are either 30fps capped or pixelated af or with other visible in ur face ugly shit, which makes them overall looking worse from maxed last gen pc version of games.
Click to expand...

4090? Not a chance

To elaborate, I think 4070 is doable, but I wouldn't hold my breath, 4060 is realistic tho. Problem now is how expensive is to create chip on 5-3nms, where you realistically have to be, to hit power draw of the whole system. So its not just AMD vs Nvidia, but rather cost and power limitation. 4090 is a beast, its much more powerful then even 4080, its what RTX Titan was to RTX2080
 
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E

Elios83

Member
They were oversold but at the same time Pro hardware was absolutely not needed just a few months ago 🤭 "pie_tears_joy:

And no they were not oversold but with every console hardware every gen there will be compromises. This will never change. Developers will always be able to push things in a way that will require compromises.
Developers can put a 4090 on its knees with heavy ray tracing/path tracing, no DLSS, let alone a console.

If you want native 4k and 60fps clearly you can't get that huge next gen leap in graphics on a 500$ box, if you get that leap then you can't expect developers to not use upscaling solutions heavily, 30fps and other tricks to make things work.
The problem with this gen is that the cross gen phase lasted too long, this created some benefits that now people must be willing to see at least compromised if they want the next gen leap that was intended since the beginning.
 
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The Cockatrice

The Cockatrice

Gold Member
Senua said:
They were on release but not anymore dude. They've been surpassed.
Click to expand...

I havent played a better looking game on PS5 since then. What games have surpassed them visually? Just because a game uses more modern techniques of raytracing, doesnt make it visually better. Shadows are not all there is to a game's graphics you know and most of the times you wont even notice them when actually playing. For example animations. There is no game in existence that can surpass TLOU2 in that regard. Lets take Cyberpunk 2077 as another example. It's janky and animation-wise it isnt that amazing, however it's architectural design is unsurpassed. I'd rather explore that game for 1000 hours than explore a generic boring forest that's super realistic in lighting(like Wukong). Devs should focus on making worlds more believable, more fantasy-like, more explorable. I wanna enter a complex building and explore all its rooms rather than just walk for miles just to see tree and realistic shadows.
 
RoboFu

RoboFu

One of the green rats
It's just going to be another boring gen. We need something revolutionary to spark new gameplay ideas. Alas there is nothing new.

It will be another... very similar hardware low end pc machines.
 
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B

Beechos

Member
Nope. It'll be the same experience as this gen just more stable. No one wants to spend the time and money creating the assets needed for truly next gen looking games. No one knows how to incorporate physics anymore into games.
 
KungFucius

KungFucius

King Snowflake
Kuranghi said:
I have to disagree about TV sizing.

I'm a TV salesman in the UK and 65" is the most common size I sell to people who would play games, with a very large amount of people buying 75s and then also 85s are 10x more common than they were even 6 years ago when I was fresher in the role.

I work in a small example of a major retailer and even there I've sold 10+ 98" and 100" TVs since they became available for delivery in Jan 2024. So even stupid sizes are the realm of wealthy people anymore, you can buy an entry level spec 98" TV for £1799 today and ultra high spec 98s and a 100" for less than 3 grand.

Also, this is a football obsessed nation and people want giant TVs to see the game better, so my younger customers are getting much arger sizes for console gaming as a by product of that.

I have to tell people they need to upgrade their Netflix to the top tier or get Sky Q/Virgin 4K if they don't want their new 75" TV (that they're sitting 3-4m away from) to be blurry and disappointing vs. the 4K HDR trailers/content I've shown them in the shop.

Sure HDR and colour is used heavily to sell new TVs, but ime resolution and contrast is the most important factor for drawing average joes in and higher resolutions increase perceived contrast and colour saturation.
Click to expand...
For games most people with large TVs will still be happy with 4K upscaled from 1080p via DLSS or equivalent.

Games don't have to look any better than they do today and, hopefully, shouldn't keep costing more to make.
 
K

kikkis

Member
Ray tracing was supposed to bring unparalleled visual fidelity this gen. Realtime effects with npu seem even more wishy washy.
 
Hrk69

Hrk69

Gold Member
PeteBull said:
If u guys wanna guess how games gonna look next gen- look what current top pc hardware can deliver, next xbox and ps6 will be roughly in the ballpark of current top pc so r7 7800x3d and rtx 4090, i say roughly in the ballpark coz it could be bit stronger, maybe 20 to 50% stronger, but not more.



Just for comparision thats maxed ass creed unity, that launched nov 2014, still looks comparable and sometimes better from most current gen only console games


launched in june 2015 arkham knight, maxed on 3080


launched in oct 2018, rdr2 maxed


Now lets compare it to console quality current gen only games




in most cases those current gen only exclusives are either 30fps capped or pixelated af or with other visible in ur face ugly shit, which makes them overall looking worse from maxed last gen pc version of games.
Click to expand...

4090?
Stop giving these fools and kind of hope.

You are overselling it in a BIG way
 
Senua

Senua

Member
The Cockatrice said:
I havent played a better looking game on PS5 since then. What games have surpassed them visually? Just because a game uses more modern techniques of raytracing, doesnt make it visually better. Shadows are not all there is to a game's graphics you know and most of the times you wont even notice them when actually playing. For example animations. There is no game in existence that can surpass TLOU2 in that regard. Lets take Cyberpunk 2077 as another example. It's janky and animation-wise it isnt that amazing, however it's architectural design is unsurpassed. I'd rather explore that game for 1000 hours than explore a generic boring forest that's super realistic in lighting(like Wukong). Devs should focus on making worlds more believable, more fantasy-like, more explorable. I wanna enter a complex building and explore all its rooms rather than just walk for miles just to see tree and realistic shadows.
Click to expand...
Why did you just assume I only care about shadows lol? I remember playing TLoU2 on PS4 at launch and being amazed how this little box from 2013 could pull this off. The baked GI and the asset quality and cutscene character models were simply incredible. Horizon also was by far the best looking PS5 game on release and the fact it was cross gen was amazing, but Guerilla are wizards.

But as the years went on we've had Alan Wake 2, Cyberpunk 2077 Path tracing, Avatar and Hellblade 2, just to name a few. As far as visuals in gameplay are concerned these eclipse those early cross gen titles in so many ways, not just shadows lol. Black Myth Wukong again is another one (haven't played yet) but looks incredible on PC but Space Marine 2 looks to set another visual bar. We're being treated very kindly in the graphical department lately so it just seems weird to act like old cross gen titles still reign supreme, it's just not true.
 
Go_Ly_Dow

Go_Ly_Dow

Member
Graphics are good enough now.

Games are costing too much and taking too long to develop.

I think the focus next gen should be on new tech to reduce dev costs and so that games can be made more quickly. So some AI solutions and engine tools.
 
Kerotan

Kerotan

Member
RetroGamingUK said:
I think we’re getting to the point now where most people (outside of NeoGaf, ResetEra and Digital Foundry) are more than happy with the current level of graphics. Barely anyone outside America has a 70” TV so resolution isn’t as important as many here think.

Just look at how popular the PS4 still is 4 years after its successor launched, or how well the Switch is still selling.

I’ll likely get a PS6 as they’ve consistently kept me happy, but from here on out any improvements should be about reducing costs, both for consumers and developers.
Click to expand...
Hell I'm playing my PS3 a lot lately and games like ratchet and clank, LA NOIRE etc still look great.

Digital foundry "Last gen was oversold, so let's oversell the next one".

The biggest reason for the smaller jump is developers this gen have settled for 60 not 30. They'll probably settle for 60 with the PS6 especially with games being cross Gen for years so we'll likely see a bigger jump a few years into ps6 then we did this gen.
 
Kenpachii

Kenpachii

Member
With AMD halting GPU advancement, we could very well end up with a 7900xtx performance level in the PS6 if that launches 2 years from now.

And even if new features are pushed, it will take another 3-4 years to utilize it again just like this gen because it also has to run on the PS5.

Either way this will take a very very long time to get anywhere.
 
Kuranghi

Kuranghi

Member
KungFucius said:
For games most people with large TVs will still be happy with 4K upscaled from 1080p via DLSS or equivalent.

Games don't have to look any better than they do today and, hopefully, shouldn't keep costing more to make.
Click to expand...

I disagree, never mind upscaled 4K, or native 4K, when people see 8K downsampled to 4K on a 75" they can't believe their eyes that something could have that clarity and they notice a massive difference.

If I show people a compressed Netflix 4K stream they don't think its impressive after seeing pristine 4K, we're talking middle aged couples, not younger people who are the majority playing games, who have even more of an eye for high PPI because they're used to looking at 6.5" OLED screens with insanely high PPI compared to a large TV.

There's a reason almost every single piece of marketing for games is in the 30fps/Fidelity mode, internet/mobile has been the primary delivery method for marketing for years now and phones have had 60hz+ screens for a long long time so they could easily send out 60fps to everyone who has a phone.

Do you ever game on a large screen?
 
U

ungalo

Member
I like how "jounalists" say something was depicted in a certain light, without ever mentioning it was them who did it in the first place. It's a joke at this point.
 
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