Buggy Loop
Gold Member
You would probably get the same sentiment every gens but tech keeps pushing things further.
For one, it looks like pixel soup on consoles with FSR and games running in the 1080p/720p range.
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PlayStation 6, Xbox Next Could Deliver The Biggest Generational Leap With Machine Learning; Current Generation Was Oversold
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- News Hardware
You would probably get the same sentiment every gens but tech keeps pushing things further.
For one, it looks like pixel soup on consoles with FSR and games running in the 1080p/720p range.
Physiognomonics
Member
As usual they are missing the point altogether and they want to generalize the problems Xbox Series had as if those problems were also on PS5. This generation was actually a much bigger leap than PS3 / X360, at least on PS5 with 60fps in all games and RT / 60fps in those Insomniac games and instant loadings. Sony with PSSR on PS5 Pro is perfectly on time with AI upscaling. It's Xbox that is lagging behind, again with no hardware with AI upscaling in sight.
Basically this generation it's XBox that has a problem with their promises and had the lowest "generational leap". On PS5 we got RT at 60fps (Xbox didn't), or 60fps in the best looking games of the generation in their exclusives games. We also got instant loading in most of their exclusives, as promised by Cerny. On Xbox their exclusives are still plagued with long and regular loadings.
The only problem in Sony exclusives this gen is with lack of gameplay improvement. But that has nothing to do with hardware or features. It's a creativity problem.
Because the 2 features that weren't on PS5 had either negligeable results or failed (hardware VRS) because they were half-assed. Future is with custom smart software VRS and custom I/O. Even Nvidia is going there for the latter.
Basically this generation it's XBox that has a problem with their promises and had the lowest "generational leap". On PS5 we got RT at 60fps (Xbox didn't), or 60fps in the best looking games of the generation in their exclusives games. We also got instant loading in most of their exclusives, as promised by Cerny. On Xbox their exclusives are still plagued with long and regular loadings.
The only problem in Sony exclusives this gen is with lack of gameplay improvement. But that has nothing to do with hardware or features. It's a creativity problem.
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Buggy Loop
Gold Member
I think he means that AMD gives up on high end for RDNA 4. Still some advancements technically as making RDNA 4 a more efficient and cheap RDNA 3 is still something. But likely won't be close to the monster that Blackwell will be.
Rocco Schiavone
Member
diffusionx
Gold Member
Don't believe the lies. They say this every gen. And whatever level of graphics the PS6 (next Xbox, lol) is capable of hitting at 4K/60fps, devs will overshoot that quickly, I guarantee it. That's just how it works. People never seem to understand that this stuff is relative. If you can run a game at 4K/60fps, you can run a better looking game at 4K/30fps, or 1080p/60fps, so on and so forth. So it comes down to what the dev wants to do.
I remember I got my 2080 Super and turned on ray tracing for a game and shrugged. I think that DF type nerds have been overselling this tech from the beginning. We are really in the world of diminishing returns, and that minor enhancement costs so much in GPU power that even $1600 GPUs are relying on sub-native resolution and generated frames.
I played Ragnarok earlier this year and I dunno, it's still one of the best looking games.
I remember I got my 2080 Super and turned on ray tracing for a game and shrugged. I think that DF type nerds have been overselling this tech from the beginning. We are really in the world of diminishing returns, and that minor enhancement costs so much in GPU power that even $1600 GPUs are relying on sub-native resolution and generated frames.
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Evil Smurf King
Member
Digital Foundry has no doubt that both the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X were oversold. 4K resolution at 60 frames per second was impossible to achieve without PS4 and Xbox One level of visuals
I'm sorry but DF are retarded if that's what they think since we had upscaling tech and things beyond resolution (like geometry and lighting) were improved on top of that too.
Edit: Just watched the video and it's Alex talking about native 4k. Just after talk of DLSS and its importance and adoption on PC
. I doubt you MF have 8K monitors.
I'm sorry but DF are retarded if that's what they think since we had upscaling tech and things beyond resolution (like geometry and lighting) were improved on top of that too.
Edit: Just watched the video and it's Alex talking about native 4k. Just after talk of DLSS and its importance and adoption on PC
. I doubt you MF have 8K monitors.
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Senua
Member
Ragnarok to me is just GoW (2018) with awesome textures. Not a bad thing per say, but it's very obviously cross gen. Like pretty much all first party Sony titles art direction is awesome obv but they could've pushed it way harder if it was PS5 only, we will see the full potential with the next game I'm sure (especially on Pro/PC)
RT to me depends on the implementation, in say a game like Alan Wake 2 isn't a huge leap over the standard raster because it's baked, so it already looks awesome, though it does have its limitations. But in a dynamic system like Cyberpunk it really shows an incredible leap. It's the future no doubt, we're just seeing nice previews and the potential for it atm.
PendekarRajawali
Member
…and then in the mid of next generation 60fps is not default on consoles.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I tell you one thing. I promise myself not to be fooled by unreal engine demos and talks of how games could be designed differently due to SSD streaming. That Cerny talk was heart breaking to what we received.
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Euler007
Member
I don't see how this gen was more oversold than any gen before. When's the last time you waited a minute for a level to load? You forgot that part about last gen. Baseline SSD, one of the selling points.
(upcaled to 4K)/60 was another selling point and it was true. Demon's Souls on its own hammers that point. Did some devs manage to way undershoot that mark with their spaghetti tangle of unoptimized libraries (with help from the artistic director asking for more vegetation)? Of course. It will always happen.
(upcaled to 4K)/60 was another selling point and it was true. Demon's Souls on its own hammers that point. Did some devs manage to way undershoot that mark with their spaghetti tangle of unoptimized libraries (with help from the artistic director asking for more vegetation)? Of course. It will always happen.
Yep, they turned a question about being sold "full fat RDNA2, VRS, SFS, and Velocity Architecture" into console bashing that it can't do native 4k. I don't think that was the question and judging by their discussion about DLSS 98% adoption and it becoming "needed" and standard neither are most PC next gen games. Sony and I don't think even MS ever once oversold or promised native 4k next gen games. The only thing I think was oversold in that regard was Series S promising just a reduction to 1440p but instead suffered much lower resolutions, half framerate games and missing features.
Zathalus
Member
Yeah, but that doesn’t impact consoles really. AMD does this every so often, started with ATI with the 3000 series and most recently Polaris and RDNA1.
Morrie’s wig shop
Member
Geee Whiz, you really think they were oversold… of course they were. Just like every generation before.
And now, the time has come to start over selling next gen consoles a few years before release…. and round and round we go..
Could’ve, should’ve, would’ve
And now, the time has come to start over selling next gen consoles a few years before release…. and round and round we go..
Could’ve, should’ve, would’ve
Insane Metal
Member
Here we go again.
We hear this every fucking time. And we get disappointed with consoles every single time as well lol.
We hear this every fucking time. And we get disappointed with consoles every single time as well lol.
Astray
Member
Raytracing's value is in reducing the costs involved with creating hyperrealistic lighting and reflection effects.
One of main (and untalked about) issue the industry is facing now is the fragmentation of raytracing capability (and now AI Upscaling too) amongst the gaming userbase.
Which means you can't just set up light sources and reflection surfaces, raytrace and call it a day. You have to have fallbacks in case you want to have the maximum number of users be able to play and buy your game, and those fallbacks cost additional money and hired hands to implement.
It's part of the reason why costs are so inflated nowadays.
scarlet0pimp
Member
When the next consoles come out, the current consoles will then start to get utilised properly and will then see them shine, but then the new console should perform better.
Games are taking too long to develop. A game that started development when the series x launched might launch in time for the hype of the next Xbox. it's daft.
I think the Series X might actually start to shine once the PS5 pro comes out and developers start to optimise games for it. Then though it wont matter too much since the PS5 pro will be the one in the spot light.
Games are taking too long to develop. A game that started development when the series x launched might launch in time for the hype of the next Xbox. it's daft.
I think the Series X might actually start to shine once the PS5 pro comes out and developers start to optimise games for it. Then though it wont matter too much since the PS5 pro will be the one in the spot light.
Senua
Member
That's humans for ya, short memories and high hopes.
Not at all, 4090 performance in 2028 would be way below historical trend.
nightmare-slain
Gold Member
AI has actually done a lot for gaming. From raytracing to upscaling. People say it covers over the cracks and lets unoptimized games run normally but if it wasn't for DLSS my pc GPU wouldn't have lasted as long.
the current gen came too soon to really take full advantage of all that. Next gen consoles should be able to make better use of AI. We'll be able to push them further.
the current gen came too soon to really take full advantage of all that. Next gen consoles should be able to make better use of AI. We'll be able to push them further.
SolidQ
Member
PS6 is 2028, RDNA6 is near release, so mix RDNA5 and 6, can be easy take 4090lvl. Even mid RDNA4 gonna be between 7900XT/XTX, so 30% not hard for RDNA5.5 lvl gpu
Zathalus
Member
Regarding new features:
Hardware VRS was a good idea but it’s been superseded by newer upscaler technologies that don’t play well with it. Sampler Feedback Streaming is really good technology but it requires changes to how engines stream texture data, and since the PS5 doesn’t support it most developers don’t want to do that just yet. Cross-gen is also probably responsible. I can see this slowly getting adopted next gen once the PS6 supports it. The PS5 Pro does have it, but again no support on the base PS5 makes it rather moot.
The only “new” feature that is getting wider support is Mesh/primitive shaders. Alan Wake 2, Avatar, and Star Wars Outlaws leverage them for really high detail geometry and UE5 can also leverage it. The PS5 is less programmatically flexible with primitive shaders, but the the Pro is fully feature compliant with mesh shading so the PS6 will be as well.
Really, the only major thing this console generation missed out on is more powerful RT and ML, with the former not being the end of the world with how weak the consoles GPUs are for RT, but the later being a big miss for AMD.
Hardware VRS was a good idea but it’s been superseded by newer upscaler technologies that don’t play well with it. Sampler Feedback Streaming is really good technology but it requires changes to how engines stream texture data, and since the PS5 doesn’t support it most developers don’t want to do that just yet. Cross-gen is also probably responsible. I can see this slowly getting adopted next gen once the PS6 supports it. The PS5 Pro does have it, but again no support on the base PS5 makes it rather moot.
The only “new” feature that is getting wider support is Mesh/primitive shaders. Alan Wake 2, Avatar, and Star Wars Outlaws leverage them for really high detail geometry and UE5 can also leverage it. The PS5 is less programmatically flexible with primitive shaders, but the the Pro is fully feature compliant with mesh shading so the PS6 will be as well.
Really, the only major thing this console generation missed out on is more powerful RT and ML, with the former not being the end of the world with how weak the consoles GPUs are for RT, but the later being a big miss for AMD.
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nightmare-slain
Gold Member
i bought a PS5 finally and so far the only games i've played that aren't on PC are FFVII part 2 and Demon's Souls. I have been waiting years to play DeS for years but i gave up. I love Dark Souls/Sekiro/Bloodborne but DeS just pissed me off. What a waste of money.
right now i only have Valorant installed on it lol. I still have some games to play but I could've just bought them on PC. I can't think of any upcoming PS5 exclusives I want to play. I guess it'll come in useful whenever GTA 6 comes out because we all know Rockstar won't release a PC version for a while after it comes to consoles and I'm not waiting a day longer than I need to. Until then it's just a Netflix/YouTube/Prime machine.
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Iced Arcade
Member
Over hyped, marketing bs etc
Doctor Hades
Member
I never for one second thought the PS5 or Xbox Series X would deliver 4K 60 fps games as standard, even back in 2019 before I bought either console. That is because I already knew from PC that upscaling was needed to run most games at 4K with all the eye candy enabled and a decent 60+ fps framerate. It's why I stuck with 1440p for my display and bought a 360 Hz QD-OLED monitor in February this year for my i5-13600KF / RTX 4080 PC rather than upgrading to a 4K display. In my opinion, 4K is overrated for games, especially on consoles where you don't sit close enough to the screen to really see the difference between 1440p and 2160p.
There was no way a console was ever going to compete with that, especially with AMD hardware that typically lags behind the technology used by NVIDIA. I am glad that Sony have gone with their own PSSR upscaling because FSR is pretty awful on PC and even worse on consoles due to their low base resolutions. With the next Nintendo Switch having NVIDIA hardware, it wouldn't surprise me if the Switch 2 or whatever it's called will have better upscaling hardware than the PS5 or Xbox Series X|S.
There was no way a console was ever going to compete with that, especially with AMD hardware that typically lags behind the technology used by NVIDIA. I am glad that Sony have gone with their own PSSR upscaling because FSR is pretty awful on PC and even worse on consoles due to their low base resolutions. With the next Nintendo Switch having NVIDIA hardware, it wouldn't surprise me if the Switch 2 or whatever it's called will have better upscaling hardware than the PS5 or Xbox Series X|S.
ZehDon
Member
If memory serves, there was an internal push for machine learning upscaling inside of Microsoft before this gen, but it got shot down. Big mistake, in my opinion. Now that DLSS has shown itself to be incredibly reliable, and the PS5 Pro apparently having Sony's own version of the tech, it stands to reason the next-gen consoles will use it to push harder on paper.
If there's one thing I fucking hate about this generation, it's the atrocious IQ on the back of shit-tier upscaling like FSR. The sooner we move past it, the better.
If there's one thing I fucking hate about this generation, it's the atrocious IQ on the back of shit-tier upscaling like FSR. The sooner we move past it, the better.
nightmare-slain
Gold Member
but ... but super duper fast SSD.
/s
that was what they sold the PS5 on. it was like welcome to 2007 i guess? SSDs are cool but they've been around for a long time. Nothing new or exciting.
Lucifers Beard
Member
This is said every generation.
nightmare-slain
Gold Member
AI is the new buzzword that gets rammed into all marketing.
Sony and Microsoft will use it for next gen.
Sony and Microsoft will use it for next gen.
Welcome to 2007? The time of PS3 and 360. Nah son, SSDs were a godsend and new and exciting.
DAHGAMING
Member
I wonder if they will have the same graphics as Toy Story ?
Its a shame but I wont be getting to excited for next gen. We have had about 10yrs of this 4k UHD shit now, I fell for it went out got 4k tv and monitor ect. 4k is great but once the initial "wow thats clear and looks good" has worn off im just about the gameplay. For eg over the summer I have been playing AC Odyssey on Series X (dynamic res upto 4k) up in my Xbox control center on 27inch 4k monitor (Xbox wallpaper, bed covers ect) and Series S (dynamic upto 1080p) downstairs on 4k 50inch LCD . 100% theres a difference and I notice it when I change between them, but after a few mins im not giving a fuck and just enjoying the game.
I would much rather native 1440p and higher FPS be the target going forward. I have started moving to PC as my main platform now anyway so I have my own choice anyway.
The main thing for me though is the games, you can have this great console but both Xbox and Playstation have been a massive let down with games this gen, and if that dont change people will just fuck them off and keep with what they already have. For us lot we love the tech side of it ect, but for the majority of people its about the games or even a game. If there is that 1 game thats only on that console people will move on, not for the tech. Take COD and FIFA/EAFC , watch the sales for both PS5 and Xbox X/S increase by a large % when them games are no longer coming to last gen.
Its a shame but I wont be getting to excited for next gen. We have had about 10yrs of this 4k UHD shit now, I fell for it went out got 4k tv and monitor ect. 4k is great but once the initial "wow thats clear and looks good" has worn off im just about the gameplay. For eg over the summer I have been playing AC Odyssey on Series X (dynamic res upto 4k) up in my Xbox control center on 27inch 4k monitor (Xbox wallpaper, bed covers ect) and Series S (dynamic upto 1080p) downstairs on 4k 50inch LCD . 100% theres a difference and I notice it when I change between them, but after a few mins im not giving a fuck and just enjoying the game.
I would much rather native 1440p and higher FPS be the target going forward. I have started moving to PC as my main platform now anyway so I have my own choice anyway.
The main thing for me though is the games, you can have this great console but both Xbox and Playstation have been a massive let down with games this gen, and if that dont change people will just fuck them off and keep with what they already have. For us lot we love the tech side of it ect, but for the majority of people its about the games or even a game. If there is that 1 game thats only on that console people will move on, not for the tech. Take COD and FIFA/EAFC , watch the sales for both PS5 and Xbox X/S increase by a large % when them games are no longer coming to last gen.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Topher
Gold Member
Yeah, I agree. Right now it feels like we are getting less games for the sake of better graphics. That puts more pressure on every single game released as it takes longer and cost more than previous generations. Personally, I'd rather have lower graphical fidelity in favor of more game releases or, as you say, develop tools to make that happen.
nightmare-slain
Gold Member
I was using an SSD in my PC back then. I know consoles didn't have them and when they finally got them it was a big improvement for sure. What I meant was console owners were so excited about getting an SSD thinking it would do this and that (because of the marketing from Sony/MS) but all it really does it improve loading times. As a PC gamer mainly i thought it was kinda funny how much people fell for the marketing. Now we're almost 4 years into this gen we can see that SSDs are great but they were long overdue for consoles (I know they were expensive for a long time). You don't see people as hyped up over it anymore. It's the standard now.
It's the same for 60fps. It doesn't feel that long ago people were happy with 30fps and now they want 60fps. I type this from a 360Hz monitor. Consoles are so far behind PC.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
This generation was oversold? Feels like every generation after PS2 was oversold.
MarkMe2525
Gold Member
Flat gaming as become commoditized. "New experiences" are not on the menu any longer, just rehashed and remixed mechanics. The fact that one can infer the button layout of a game, on first boot, tells a story in itself of stagnation.
I'm not claiming I no longer participate in the medium, as there is comfort in the familiar, but I have turned to VR more and more for novel experiences and mechanics. Of course, even this market is not immune to these pitfalls, and it is only a matter of time before I will be able to make the same claims of stagnation in that space as well.
Edit: I want to clarify that I recognize there are always exceptions to the rule.
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AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
I think there is some AI or machine learning that can help with it. But it would need to be as ubiquitous as speed tree for fidelity. High quality asset generation is time consuming.
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I know many don't think so but nothing has changed my mind we will get the next gen Xbox likely 2 years ahead of the PS6, especially since they skipped the pro model this time around
Maybe something has changed in the last few months at castle green but it hasn't made its way into the "grapevine" if it has
I think you're severally underselling the improvement or overselling your 2007 SSD. In 2007 SSDs had a sequential write speed of 100MB/sec and sequential read speed of 120MB/sec. This is not what we have today in consoles and games changed how they worked to take advantage of the SSD especially compared to 2007. In 2007 your 120MB (if that) SSD would have meant very little in games.
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SegaSnatcher
Member
First, let me clarify what I'm about to write below this is not coming from fanboyism or hatred towards Microsoft. I'm 41 yrs old I don't have time for console war BS.
Having said that, Microsoft really needs to hit it out of the park next-gen because well these past two generations have not been their greatest of moments in gaming. Look how amazing the 360 generation was, they really need to get back to that.
Having said that, Microsoft really needs to hit it out of the park next-gen because well these past two generations have not been their greatest of moments in gaming. Look how amazing the 360 generation was, they really need to get back to that.
King Dazzar
Member
Yeah I get some of that and no doubt it takes time. But dont game engines come with the tools to help with that? I wonder if the problem isnt more linked to game length expectations and building and implementing all the content and all the numerous cutscenes etc we have today. I remember when Far Cry 5 came out and players could build large sections of the world, with loads of assets easily deployable.
Trogdor1123
Member
I was thinking this exactly. Going 4K and doubling (or more) fps in games that look better than last gen is exactly what I was hoping for.
Games load way faster too, I think some people haven’t actually gone back to see what the older games were like in a while to really compare them
Cute, they said the same with the PS5 zen CPU architecture. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not sure if most got the memo, but hardware leaps isn't the savior anymore, hadn't been since the 8 gen.
It's ridiculously high budgets, a small army of devs working internationally and risk-aversion + tools that don't catch up in practice as suggested. That's what is actually stagnated high fidelity game development.
A future (and current day) where high-tier dev studio's (like Rockstar or Naughty, etc) can, in practice, only produce 1 title per generation
Edit: the last I actually got existed by "next gen hardware" where the 6th (PS2/XBOX/NGC) and 7th gen (PS360) leaps, as those games actually showed a fundamental and substantial leap in visual and simulation fidelity, leading to actually "next gen" feeling gameplay. Games that simply couldn't be possible on previous hardware.
Not sure if most got the memo, but hardware leaps isn't the savior anymore, hadn't been since the 8 gen.
It's ridiculously high budgets, a small army of devs working internationally and risk-aversion + tools that don't catch up in practice as suggested. That's what is actually stagnated high fidelity game development.
A future (and current day) where high-tier dev studio's (like Rockstar or Naughty, etc) can, in practice, only produce 1 title per generation
Edit: the last I actually got existed by "next gen hardware" where the 6th (PS2/XBOX/NGC) and 7th gen (PS360) leaps, as those games actually showed a fundamental and substantial leap in visual and simulation fidelity, leading to actually "next gen" feeling gameplay. Games that simply couldn't be possible on previous hardware.
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