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[faridmon]

I was really looking forward to this. Fuck you Nintendo.

Seriously?

 

[Berordn]

I was willing to put up with this argument in the past, but now that I'm seeing that even drawings aren't safe I can't really abide by it anymore. It's a silly overreaction over a fake problem that never hurt them before.

First I'd just like to add that I don't necessarily agree with this either. I think derivative works like romhacks and fangames are relatively harmless but I can understand concerns about them diluting the brand when you're regularly trying to sell products.

But to play devil's advocate for a second, it's a much different world now. Entire industries are popping up around nostalgia and it benefits Nintendo a lot to be able to control the message. Be it taking down fanart so they can prevent tee shirt websites from profiting off their characters or targeting fangames in order to make the release of the classic Gameboy/DS games more exciting when they hit modern consoles.

I don't like it, and I don't think they're right. But I understand why they're doing it and I understand that it's in their rights to do so.

 

[Kyzer]

I was willing to put up with this argument in the past, but now that I'm seeing that even drawings aren't safe I can't really abide by it anymore. It's a silly overreaction over a fake problem that never hurt them before.

Yes, laws are usually preventative...

Lets put it this way, and keep it simple.

Do you believe Nintendo should allow some people to use and distribute their official brands and assets in unapproved ways without their permission?

 

[PdotMichael]

If companies are cool with that stuff (mods) more power for all.

But after all it's not your property...

 

[PSqueak]

Why are y'all comparing using a static piece of official artwork as a forum avatar to producing a whole game using copyrighted assets and ips that is [on a technicallity] on direct competition with official products?

I mean i understand what you guys are saying, but come on, that's just being obtuse at this point, can we not pretend we don't know the difference between those?

And yes, technically Marvel, Nintendo or whatever could totally claim misuse of their IPs for the usage of forum avatars, but come on, it's not worth the risk or effort as opposed to a massively advertised fan game, as much as it sucks it was C&D'd

This discussion is getting silly.

Spoiler

that's why i only use avatars i drew myself, im not worried about disney, im not depicting the character in any way that wasn't shown in the series >.>;;;

 

[Toxi]

Companies that do not defend their rights to their IPs risk losing them to the commons. So if they do care about their IPs they pretty much have to.

Yeah, Sega just lost the Sonic IP./s

Seriously, stop using this argument when it doesn't reflect reality. It's horseshit.

Yes, laws are usually preventative...

Preventative of what? There's no fucking evidence that Nintendo/TPC taking this action actually has tangible protection for their IP.

There are tons of ways to produce fanworks about Pokémon without infringing on its creators and rights-holders, and without making a hack of one of their games.

There is literally no way to do a Pokemon fan work that doesn't infringe on the creators and rights-holders in some way. The Pokemon Company is just as much in their rights to go after fan art or fan fiction as they are after a ROM hack. And you'd probably be here defending them for that too.

 

[LouisaFerre]

Pokémon isn't produced by some monolothic corporate black box; it's the product of writers, artists, designers, musicians, programmers, and many other creatives who may have their own ideas about how they want their work to be treated and/or legally protected.

There are tons of ways to produce fanworks about Pokémon without infringing on its creators and rights-holders, and without making a hack of one of their games.

Arguing incessantly about whether Nintendo is "right" or "wrong" to do this is irrelevant. It's their creative work to protect as they see fit, and it certainly can't be framed as the kind of malevolence some in this thread would like to. Nintendo has made emphatically clear, time and time again, that these kinds of projects cross a boundary and that they will take action.

I don't think it's fair to constantly push this boundary, get the same result, and begin the outrage cycle again anew.

I don't mean to shit on or dismiss your post, and I'm really hoping this doesn't come off that way, but I don't really think you and the person you are responding to are arguing about the same thing. You're saying that they don't have to infringe upon the rights-holders and that it's Nintendo's work to protect as they see fit, but what I got from Twiforce's post was that (s)he was deriding or arguing against the notion of intellectual property as it currently exists. If someone thinks that the rights or protections offered by the state are wrong or harmful and should be challenged, simply saying that those are the rights of the creators is a non-response. The point here isn't that Nintendo is using the tools they're offered in an invalid way, or that Nintendo isn't arguing in their own interest in some form, but that we shouldn't be prioritizing the protection of Nintendo's interests, or any IP-holder's interests, to the extent that we suppress other creative works. Just because we currently do doesn't mean that we have to, and it doesn't and shouldn't mean that people can't try to argue against it.

 

[Toxi]

I guess... NintenDOES what SEGA doesnt.

 

[Tyraniboah]

I always hate seeing fan projects get shut down, but they knew the risk going in. Shouldn't have uploaded a YouTube video two months before release. I've been interested in playing this for a while, but I can't blame nintendo for taking care of their properties. I don't think projects such as these actually hurt their properties, but it opens the door for stuff that will. Why risk it?

Edit:

That is awesome on Sega's part

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

So is it okay for anybody to make an |OT| for this? This thread isn't really suitable for discussion of the game itself because of the focus on the C&D.

 

[Mabufu]

That's what I mean. Nintendo pursues fan creations.
SEGA loves them.

 

[MUnited83]

Pokémon isn't produced by some monolothic corporate black box; it's the product of writers, artists, designers, musicians, programmers, and many other creatives who may have their own ideas about how they want their work to be treated and/or legally protected.

There are tons of ways to produce fanworks about Pokémon without infringing on its creators and rights-holders, and without making a hack of one of their games.

Arguing incessantly about whether Nintendo is "right" or "wrong" to do this is irrelevant. It's their creative work to protect as they see fit, and it certainly can't be framed as the kind of malevolence some in this thread would like to. Nintendo has made emphatically clear, time and time again, that these kinds of projects cross a boundary and that they will take action.

I don't think it's fair to constantly push this boundary, get the same result, and begin the outrage cycle again anew.

No there isn't. You're basically wrong on everything you said.

Why are y'all comparing using a static piece of official artwork as a forum avatar to producing a whole game using copyrighted assets and ips that is [on a technicallity] on direct competition with official products?

I mean i understand what you guys are saying, but come on, that's just being obtuse at this point, can we not pretend we don't know the difference between those?

And yes, technically Marvel, Nintendo or whatever could totally claim misuse of their IPs for the usage of forum avatars, but come on, it's not worth the risk or effort as opposed to a massively advertised fan game, as much as it sucks it was C&D'd

This discussion is getting silly.

Spoiler

that's why i only use avatars i drew myself, im not worried about disney, im not depicting the character in any way that wasn't shown in the series >.>;;;

You draw a character that isn't yours? How dare you make a fan work based on other works. Take down that immediately, it's copyright infringement.

Spoiler

and no, it's not any different than a game.

 

[MUnited83]

Nobody's saying that the romhack itself would cause the IP to fall apart. Nintendo probably doesn't care that it's out in the wild or that people are playing it.

What they are saying is that Nintendo not reacting to unsolicited free use of their IP would impact their ability to defend it in the future should someone make a derivative work and attempt to sell it commercially, by citing examples of these hacks floating around and not being pursued by Nintendo's legal teams resulting in the IP falling into public use.

This literally can't happen. This would be only the case if they let paid commercial works using it exist. Free ones don't impact it at all. Furthermore, they wouldn't risk losing the IP even in that case. Only the trademark.

 

[Kyzer]

Preventative of what? There's no fucking evidence that Nintendo/TPC taking this action actually has tangible protection for their IP.


There is literally no way to do a Pokemon fan work that doesn't infringe on the creators and rights-holders in some way. The Pokemon Company is just as much in their rights to go after fan art or fan fiction as they are after a ROM hack. And you'd probably be here defending them for that too.

Preventative of what ? Do you not understand there are laws about this? Its to protect YOUR intellectual property. Its not up to me and what I want to do with your property. If I take it and put it on a shirt and give it away to people you are within your right to demand it to cease. You are perhaps arguing for changing a law or not enforcing it, we are plainly stating the facts, that this is illegal and therefore was taken down. That, and highly advertising these things whilst arguing that the owner of the damn property should bug off and stop demanding what people do with their property because you think it would be fun to use, and bringing up the other time somebody was totally cool with someone taking their property as justification for disapproval this owner does not make the act any less illegal.

And yes, they could demand you stop using their avatars. If they wanted to. Is there anyone that actually disagrees that it would be nice if we could have all these hacks and remakes legally? Of course it would

 

[Rogue Agent]

The G/S/C originals are among my favourite games (and sequels). How does Prism compare?

 

[Toxi]

Preventative of what ? Do you not understand there are laws about this? Its to protect YOUR intellectual property. Its not up to me and what I want to do with your property. If I take it and put it on a shirt and give it away to people you are within your right to demand it to cease. You are perhaps arguing for changing a law or not enforcing it, we are plainly stating the facts, that this is illegal and therefore was taken down. That, and highly advertising these things whilst arguing that the owner of the damn property should bug off and stop demanding what people do with their property because you think it would be fun to use, and bringing up the other time somebody was totally cool with someone taking their property as justification for disapproval this owner does not make the act any less illegal.

You have still not actually explained what this cease and desist has prevented, probably because that would require actually explaining why this was a good course of action and not corporate dick waving that benefits nobody except IP law fetishists.

Also

Remember guys, legality equals morality. Any time the law is fucking stupid and someone gets boned because of it, you just gotta suck it up because laws are always great.

 

[Professor Beef]

You have still not actually explained what this cease and desist has prevented, probably because that would require actually explaining why this was a good course of action and not corporate dick waving that benefits nobody except IP law fetishists.

It was coming out around the same time as a mainline release from Nintendo themselves. And with as much advertising as it was getting, it could be argued that it could cause brand-confusion.

 

[perfectchaos007]

If they are giving away the game for free then I don't see how they could be C&D'd. I thought they just couldn't try to profit from it. At least SEGA is more friendly to their fans

 

[ramparter]

That seems to be the main justification for Nintendo wasting their time going after fan works.

No.

 

[Kyzer]

You have still not actually explained what this cease and desist has prevented, probably because that would require actually explaining why this was a good course of action and not corporate dick waving that benefits nobody except IP law fetishists.

Is there something special about this specific ROM hack that made it immune to copyright law? Are you asking what's the point of copyright law? IP law fetishist? Are you sure you don't totally not understand what the point of protecting your right to control your property is?

Copyright law temporarily gives an author the sole right to copy and distribute his or her work. The idea that an author of a work should be able to control how his work is initially distributed goes way back in history. In fact, the Founding Fathers thought copyright laws were so important they included them in the Constitution. Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the power to make laws: “[t]o promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited time to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.”

If you read this closely, you’ll notice that copyright law wasn’t created to ensure creative people “get rich” off of the works they create. Instead, the Founding Fathers understood that the public benefitted greatly from individuals’ creative work. Yet they also understood that would-be creators needed an incentive to create. So they included an incentive in the Constitution: Bestowing Congress with the power to grant creators the exclusive right to control their creation for a limited period of time. And when that period expired, the public could legally copy or use that work for any purpose. Reflecting on copyright law’s benevolent purpose, the Supreme Court summarized it in one great little phrase: “[Copyright law exists to] stimulate artistic creativity for the general public good.” Twentieth Century Music Corp. v. Aiken, 422 U.S. 151, 156 (1975).

 

[Toxi]

It was coming out around the same time as a mainline release from Nintendo themselves. And with as much advertising as it was getting, it could be argued that it could cause brand-confusion.

It could be argued, but that would be a fucking stupid argument when Prism was intended to be a patch for a Gameboy Color game ROM.

Is there something special about this specific ROM hack that made it immune to copyright law? Are you asking what's the point of copyright law?

Are you actually going to make an argument besides "Nintendo had the legal right to do this"?

 

[Professor Beef]

It could be argued, but that would be a fucking stupid argument when Prism was intended to be a patch for a Gameboy Color game ROM.

I think you're overestimating the general intelligence of the gaming public.

 

[ramparter]

Sega is the company that allows bad genesis clones with cheap emulators to be sold to consumers. No thank you, I'd rather have a Nintendo that protect their ip.

 

[Toxi]

I think you're overestimating the general intelligence of the gaming public.

Do you have any actual evidence of brand confusion occurring with Pokemon Prism and Pokemon Sun and Moon?

 

[PSqueak]

You draw a character that isn't yours? How dare you make a fan work based on other works. Take down that immediately, it's copyright infringement.

Spoiler

and no, it's not any different than a game.

I know it's no legally different, hence me joking on the spoilers about disney coming after my ass.

What i mean, one thing is nintendo going for a moderatedly high profile romhack and another them going for people using nintendo avatars, one is absolutely a dick move but understandable, the other is a complete waste of resources.

Inb4 mentioning Tumblr takedown of fanart, those are people claiming to be nintendo taking advantage of tumblr's flawed report system and lack of giving a fuck for their user base.

 

[KarmaCow]

Sega is the company that allows bad genesis clones with cheap emulators to be sold to consumers. No thank you, I'd rather have a Nintendo that protect their ip.

You'd rather have nothing than having access to Pokemon Prism. Okay then.

 

[Kyzer]

It could be argued, but that would be a fucking stupid argument when Prism was intended to be a patch for a Gameboy Color game ROM.


Are you actually going to make an argument besides "Nintendo had the legal right to do this"?

You're saying that so casually as if Nintendo doesn't completely disavow and constantly patch away homebrew in the first place. Nintendo does not support this stuff and if you seriously don't understand why or what the point is then idk!

You are literally asking what the point of taking it down was and what it prevents...

 

[Professor Beef]

Do you have any actual evidence of brand confusion occurring with Pokemon Prism and Pokemon Sun and Moon?

No, but in lieu of that I could point out the mountains of evidence of brand confusion between the Wii U/Wii, the 3DS/DSi, and Club Nintendo/My Nintendo.

 

[Diprosalic]

Nintendo could stop being dumb, get publishing rights to the imod and release it as a new retro Pokemon game without any real effort on their part.

You know, just like how Sega treats modders. Hire them and let them do something official.

What kind of use would GF have for a guy who spent 8 years making a ROM hack for a GBC game?

 

[Toxi]

No, but in lieu of that I could point out the mountains of evidence of brand confusion between the Wii U/Wii, the 3DS/DSi, and Club Nintendo/My Nintendo.

All of which are official Nintendo products and services advertised by Nintendo, which are irrelevant to whether a fan ROM hack of a 15 year old game will be confused with an official highly-advertised 2016 3DS title.

You are literally asking what the point of taking it down was and what it prevents...

Thank you, that is what I'm asking. Please provide an answer for that question.

 

[Professor Beef]

All of which are official Nintendo products and services advertised by Nintendo, which are irrelevant to whether a fan ROM hack of a 15 year old game will be confused with an official highly-advertised 3DS title.

That rom hack was also getting featured on Youtube/Twitch, so it's not a large leap to see the possibility for confusion. You're assuming that people will be able to figure it out, and I'm saying that you're giving people too much credit.

 

[djSyndrome]

No fucking work is being stolen here. Stop with this bullshit.

So the game is an entirely original work, not derivative of Pokémon at all, and Nintendo have made a terrible mistake. Gotcha.

 

[FSLink]

To be fair, I don't think people who are dumb enough to not know the difference would know how to run a ROM and/or patching tools.
But I get your point.

 

[Toxi]

That rom hack was also getting featured on Youtube/Twitch, so it's not a large leap to see the possibility for confusion. You're assuming that people will be able to figure it out, and I'm saying that you're giving people too much credit.

Please provide evidence of people being confused between Pokemon Prism and the official Pokemon games. Someone who is downloading a ROM hack is likely not the sort of person to get confused about these things.

 

[MUnited83]

Preventative of what ? Do you not understand there are laws about this? Its to protect YOUR intellectual property. Its not up to me and what I want to do with your property. If I take it and put it on a shirt and give it away to people you are within your right to demand it to cease. You are perhaps arguing for changing a law or not enforcing it, we are plainly stating the facts, that this is illegal and therefore was taken down. That, and highly advertising these things whilst arguing that the owner of the damn property should bug off and stop demanding what people do with their property because you think it would be fun to use, and bringing up the other time somebody was totally cool with someone taking their property as justification for disapproval this owner does not make the act any less illegal.

And yes, they could demand you stop using their avatars. If they wanted to. Is there anyone that actually disagrees that it would be nice if we could have all these hacks and remakes legally? Of course it would

No, it isn't illegal at all. You're also free to make shirts with whatever you want printed on them and gift it to people. That's not a illegal act.

Some people here really have no fucking concept of law. No, it isn't illegal unless you have no fucking idea what "illegal" actually means.

So the game is an entirely original work, not derivative of Pokémon at all, and Nintendo have made a terrible mistake. Gotcha.

It's.A.MOD.for.a.existing.game

You're saying that so casually as if Nintendo doesn't completely disavow and constantly patch away homebrew in the first place. Nintendo does not support this stuff and if you seriously don't understand why or what the point is then idk!

You are literally asking what the point of taking it down was and what it prevents...

That's like saying Apple has the right to not let you jailbreak your phone and Nintendo has the right to not let you hack your 3DS. No, that's not their fucking right, and you can modify your fucking bought property as you see fit.

 

[Kyzer]

All of which are official Nintendo products and services advertised by Nintendo, which are irrelevant to whether a fan ROM hack of a 15 year old game will be confused with an official highly-advertised 2016 3DS title.

Thank you, that is what I'm asking. Please provide an answer for that question.

It prevents...

1- Someone else using their property without their permission or approval, like you're arguing for

2 -People thinking it's OK to do this and post it everywhere on mainstream sites like it's not illegal, like you're arguing for

3 -From romhacks and the methods of patching and playing them becoming mainstream themselves

I'm sure there's more

 

[Kyzer]

No, it isn't illegal at all. You're also free to make shirts with whatever you want printed on them and gift it to people. That's not a illegal act.

Some people here really have no fucking concept of law. No, it isn't illegal unless you have no fucking idea what "illegal" actually means.


It's.A.MOD.for.a.existing.game

So you're arguing this is legal now ... It's gonna be a long thread

 

[DigtialT]

The only people who would get pokemon prism (a rom hack for a 15 year old GameBoy color game) confused with Sun or Moon (a full retail game that you can only get through Nintendo's eshop or as a physical copy in a store) are the same people who would have no idea this thing even existed. Hell, I'm as hardcore as they come and come to this site daily, and I had never heard of this game until the C&D hit the news.

 

[psychowave]

Love Nintendo games, but man is the company fucking embarrassing more often than not.

 

[Shadoken]

Well it was a ROM hack... The'd never shutdown Fanart or something. *hides*

 

[MUnited83]

So you're arguing this is legal now ... It's gonna be a long thread

Mods are legal, yes. You can modifiy the shit you legally bought, yes.

It's not going to be a long thread because this is really simple shit. You arguing that it's somehow "illegal" is like saying car brands can stop you from modificating your car or Nintendo can stop you from hacking your 3DS. And if you honestly argue for that, that's just utterly useless and disgusting corporate ass-kissing.

 

[Kyzer]

Mods are legal, yes. You can modifiy the shit you legally bought, yes.

It's not going to be a long thread because this is really simple shit. You arguing that it's somehow "illegal" is like saying car brands can stop you from modificating your car or Nintendo can stop you from hacking your 3DS. And if you honestly argue for that, that's just utterly useless and disgusting corporate ass-kissing.

You cannot modify your things by putting someone else's copyright protected property on it and distributing it for free, sorry. Not sure what country you live in

 

[Shadoken]

Sega is the company that allows bad genesis clones with cheap emulators to be sold to consumers. No thank you, I'd rather have a Nintendo that protect their ip.

Yes and it is also priced sufficiently. It greatly benefits people living in much poorer regions , where that it is ridiculously cheap.

 

[djSyndrome]

It's.A.MOD.for.a.existing.game

I think that's been well established. You should also have your period key looked at.

Did you even read the complaint? Nintendo aren't going at them for compiling some code - they're after them for leveraging Nintendo's (well-protected IP) in issuing this product, and essentially marketing it as a Pokémon game.

 

[The Shadow Knight]

You cannot modify your things by putting someone else's copyright protected property on it and distributing it for free, sorry. Not sure what country you live in

There's nothing illegal about distributing a patch that contains 0 copyrighted content.

EDIT: In general anyway, in this case there are some sprites in the patch files that are likely copyrighted.

 

[MUnited83]

You cannot modify your things by putting someone else's copyright protected property on it and distributing it for free, sorry. Not sure what country you live in

Sure I can. They are not distributing a ROM, they are only distributing the mod/patch itself.
No court ever would uphold this shit.

 

[Boney]

Fuckers

Pokemon rom hacks are the only way to play Pokemon

 

[Professor Beef]

Please provide evidence of people being confused between Pokemon Prism and the official Pokemon games. Someone who is downloading a ROM hack is likely not the sort of person to get confused about these things.

How am I supposed to provide evidence for something that I already admitted was only a possibility? Should I go out on the street and hunt for anecdotes?

 

[Kyzer]

If I wanted to try the mod, how hard is it to dump a gbc ROM and what do I need to play it on my game boy?

 

[docbon]

Fuckers

Pokemon rom hacks are the only way to play Pokemon

Game leaked a few hours later anyway so the festivities may continue.

And wew @ preferring nothing over a pretty high quality romhack like Prism. I will never love a company that much.