Pokemon Prism (Crystal ROM Hack in Development for 8 years) C&D'd by Nintendo

GoldStarz

Member
I'm sure it's been said; but if you're going to straight up lift a corporation's IP to make a game, do it quietly. Make it silently, release it and THEN wait for the C&D. Everyone who is surprised or hurt by Nintendo asking for this to stop, I mean, c'mon. What do you expect.

I mean I fully expect for Nintendo to bring down the C&D hammer every once in awhile to protect the idea that they defend their IPs, but:

1) They've been totally gung-ho about it lately that goes way beyond what they need to do.
2) Maybe weed out projects before they can get off the ground and don't go after the projects that have had lifespans that are almost half as long as your IP's entire history.
 

Berordn

Member
If they used Nintendo's assets than I don't blame Nintendo for stopping them. There's a murky line between fan adoration and leeching and I can't really fault Nintendo for being aggressive about this. It's something I worry about (and have friends who have had experiences dealing with this sort of thing). I always err to the side of the original creators though so I'm biased

They're using Nintendo's assets, but injecting them back into a package that requires the original binary. I don't think that's quite as cut and dry.

Nintendo's still well within their right to do so, and I understand why they are with Pokemon Sun and Moon coming out not too long ago. I just don't think I'd label it as leeching since they still put a lot of work into bringing an ancient game up to par with its contemporaries and turning it into a bit of a love letter to the series.
 

EloquentM

aka Mannny
It's good it got leaked but any company that doesn't embrace published mods of their software is in their right to do this.
 

Air

Banned
They're using Nintendo's assets, but injecting them back into a package that requires the original binary. I don't think that's quite as cut and dry.

Nintendo's still well within their right to do so, and I understand why they are with Pokemon Sun and Moon coming out not too long ago. I just don't think I'd label it as leeching since they still put a lot of work into bringing an ancient game up to par with its contemporaries and turning it into a bit of a love letter to the series.

What I mean by leeching is using the game of the ip to grow your own brand. This is very prevalent with fan art btw. I'm not saying the creator wanted to do it, but that's what the company sees (I have experience with this). It sucks they put so much work into it, but that's the game and they should know when going in that this is a very real outcome. Love letter or not, the ip is massive and Nintendo wants as much control of it as possible because it butters their bread
 

Zomba13

Member
It would be super nice if all the "it's their IP so no one should use it" posters didn't have avatars featuring art of established IPs.
 

MicH

Member
So happy this was quietly leaked into the Internet after all. Nintendo are absolute docks for sending a C&D mere days before it's scheduled to release after 8 friggin' years of development.

Can't wait to see more of this game and it won't stop me buying Pokemon games in the future (heck I bought 3 copies of SM)
 

Gator86

Member
I'm confused as to why people keep making these Nintendo fan games, ROM hacks, etc., knowing this is how it's going to end every time now. Nintendo clearly isn't going to let any amateur devs use their IPs. Regardless of whether Nintendo should, they legally can and are clearly going to continue doing after everyone who uses their properties.

Not quite the issue here given how long it was in development, but it seems like this is a pretty common occurrence now.
 

Chavelo

Member
dang, i can see why nintendo wanted to stop this from being released, sorta feels like they felt threatened by the amount of work this guy put into this.

this is some top tier rom hacking right here, folks. definitely give it a try if you can.
 

dude

dude
Going after ROM hacks now? What's the next step for Nintendo? Going after fan art? I can't wait until everyone who draws a pikachu gets a C&D! Gotta protect your trademarks, can't have everyone murking up your brand with crappy art!

Nintendo keeps coming off as asshats.
 
The reason they didn't keep the project a secret before release is because of motivation... The game was in development for 8 years. You don't put free work in a hobby and stay motivated for all that time without a bit of support from fans and friends. It is obvious.
 
Whoa the source code leaked too. Apparently there is a commented out section of code that would have given a catch rate boost for pressing Down+B on the right frame.

Btw I now know that Nintendo did take action over some Star Fox fan art, something called Zero Suit Fox (as you can guess NSFW) which in theory could show up some nice NSFW content while searching for some game called Star Fox Zero. Literally the tumblr content removal notice describes the copyright infringement as:
Unauthorized sexual depictions of Nintendo's character "Fox" from our "Star Fox" franchise.

I love how that leaves the door open for authorized sexual depictions...zelda.com could make a come back as a porn site.

In other words if the search confusion issue is a thing could Necrozma be to blame? What is Necrozma; the typical half finished third wheel to cover duo legendary Pokemon that will surprise, surprise get a new forme in Pokemon the video game 2017 (or they'll fuck up like Gen VI and it'll be anime only until the next Gen). It is also the prism pokemon...

It's good it got leaked but any company that doesn't embrace published mods of their software is in their right to do this.
I do think to myself having justification does not make an action just (it sounds a bit better than being in your rights doesn't make you right).

I think many people are taken back by the brazen nature to C&D right now just before release while doing nothing for 8 years, letting twitch plays Pokemon run its course, leaving the trailer on youtube etc...
 

MUnited83

For you.
Do you actually think this is a good point? lol
It absolutely is. These guys should stop infringing copyright and remove their avatars. They are hypocrites.
Lots of closed minded people here crying about their fan made games or rom hacks being shut down. Nintendo is in the right, like any company that has its IP or content stolen and used by someone who is not permitted to use it.

Want to play Pokemon? Pay Nintendo to play the games it actually makes.
Pokémon Crystal is a paid Pokémon game, this is a mod for it. Stop trying to justify this fuckery. Shutting down mods is not acceptable.
 

PrimeBeef

Member
"This jeopardizes Nintendo's rights, and its ability to continue to provide fans with new and innovative games and products."

Suuuure, it does.

Companies that do not defend their rights to their IPs risk losing them to the commons. So if they do care about their IPs they pretty much have to.
 

PrimeBeef

Member
It absolutely is. These guys should stop infringing copyright and remove their avatars. They are hypocrites.

Pokémon Crystal is a paid Pokémon game, this is a mod for it. Stop trying to justify this fuckery. Shutting down mods is not acceptable.

That would only work if Nintendo or Game Freak allow player created mods. Which I am certain they do not. This isn't Skyrim, which allows and encourages it.
 

MUnited83

For you.
Companies that do not defend their rights to their IPs risk losing them to the commons. So if they do care about their IPs they pretty much have to.
No, they don't, and no, that's not how it works. There's zero risk whatsoever of them losing their IP because of romhacks.
That would only work if Nintendo or Game Freak allow player created mods. Which I am certain they do not. This isn't Skyrim, which allows and encourages it.
Irrelevant. Mods are mods. 99% of mods aren't "authorised"
 

PrimeBeef

Member
I think many people are taken back by the brazen nature to C&D right now just before release while doing nothing for 8 years, letting twitch plays Pokemon run its course, leaving the trailer on youtube etc...

I think it may have to do with the project being complete. Many of these things never get finished and released. Similarly to Blizzard and private WoW servers. They only seem to take action if the private server makes money and/or garners a lot of attention.
 
Wait, source code of a ROM hack? What was this written in?
Just looking at the extensions I see shell scripts, python, c but mostly asm and a bit of ctf which seems related.

The GB Pokemon games have been disassembled and very well documented (disassemblers exist for old systems and secrets new get uncovered) so the sensible hack route these days is to essentially work on the game from source and recompile rather than overwriting original data in the compiled form as was done the past (it is certainly more human readable and far easier to correct mistakes*). It actually might have even less of the original game in it than past hacks due to this but would have been still been distributed as a patch anyhow.

*-In the past if you messed up a level up table you had to open your hex editor (or maybe a snazzy game editor itself) to the correct location and type away. You might have also had restrictions in that you could only use the existing space so maybe if you wanted one Pokemon wanted to learn more moves another would have to learn less and you would then have to re-write the pointers to this data to account for this. Much easier to have an .asm for each Pokemon with that info and let the compiler deal with it.
 

PrimeBeef

Member
No, they don't, and no, that's not how it works. There's zero risk whatsoever of them losing their IP because of romhacks.

Irrelevant. Mods are mods. 99% of mods aren't "authorised"

If you own said copy of a game you are allowed to do whatever you want to it. However, once you take that ROM and share it, modify it and share it or use it to make an entirely different game and share it, free or not, then it becomes illegal unless consent was given by the game pub/dev.
 

Wiseblade

Member
It absolutely is. These guys should stop infringing copyright and remove their avatars. They are hypocrites.

Pokémon Crystal is a paid Pokémon game, this is a mod for it. Stop trying to justify this fuckery. Shutting down mods is not acceptable.
There is no entitlement on the part of a developer to allow mods. I don't even understand why anyone would mess with Nintendo franchises when they've shown they're not cool with any of it.
 

Zomba13

Member
If you own said copy of a game you are allowed to do whatever you want to it. However, once you take that ROM and share it, modify it and share it or use it to make an entirely different game and share it, free or not, then it becomes illegal unless consent was given by the game pub/dev.

Right, and this is a rom hack, usually distributed as a patch. So you'd need your own dump of the ROM (either dumped by yourself or acquired illegally). Now, from what I've seen the leak that is out there seems to have an already patched rom which yes, is a no no but I assume the developers of this mod intended to release a patch, and not a GBC rom.

EDIT: I mean, right outside of the "modify it" bit. You can do whatever you like to a game or whatever. At the worst it's "against the terms of service" or breaking the EULA but those don't have any legal standing anyway and at worse can just mean you are banned from taking the product online or using their online service.
 

MUnited83

For you.
If you own said copy of a game you are allowed to do whatever you want to it. However, once you take that ROM and share it, modify it and share it or use it to make an entirely different game and share it, free or not, then it becomes illegal unless consent was given by the game pub/dev.
Nope, that's false. Like when you said "they could totally lose their IP because of ROM Hacks", it's just bullshit. A ROM Hack wasn't to be distributed, only the patch/mod itself.
There is no entitlement on the part of a developer to allow mods. I don't even understand why anyone would mess with Nintendo franchises when they've shown they're not cool with any of it.
I couldn't give a shit about the developer allowing mods. Modifying shit you own is your goddamn right.
 

Wiseblade

Member
Nope, that's false. Like when you said "they could totally lose their IP because of ROM Hacks", it's just bullshit. A ROM Hack wasn't to be distributed, only the patch/mod itself.

I couldn't give a shit about the developer allowing mods. Modifying shit you own is your goddamn right.
Sure. Distribution of those mods I believe is a different matter.
 
Sure. Distribution of those mods I believe is a different matter.

It would be cool if we could get someone with actual law chops to weigh in on this.
I would imagine that a patch that contains absolutely no copyrighted material whatsoever is fair game.
The patch for this one however contains what I would guess would be copyrighted imagery(new sprites).

Regardless of whether or not the C&D would hold up in court, the devs almost certainly do not have the means to dispute it anyway.
 

Twiforce

Member
Companies that do not defend their rights to their IPs risk losing them to the commons. So if they do care about their IPs they pretty much have to.

First of all, I want to say I'm not singling out your post or trying to start a debate with you specifically- I'm just using your post as a starting point.

People always say this as if we should be on corporations' side and want them to protect their IP. But for fans and artists amongst the common people, outside of Nintendo, a series like Pokemon becoming public domain would be a good thing. Imagine the variety of Pokemon games we could get from both major publishers and indie devs if Nintendo no longer held a monopoly over the concept. We could finally get that Pokemon MMO everybody wants, an animation studio could develop an anime series with a truly fresh take on the Pokemon word, we'd get a variety of original Pokemon projects in new genres with new tones and new interpretations of the Pokemon universe.

Basically, imagine if all the variety we see in Pokemon fan art wasn't just limited to these "fair use" scenarios. It would be a renaissance for us.

The same applies to others series.

It seems that in the gaming community we become so attached to corporations rather than the works they sell, to the point we look at everything from the perspective of what's good for their profits. We justify things not on the basis of what benefits us as fans and artists but on what protects corporate profit. Sure, Nintendo is acting in their own interests and legal rights by shutting down these projects- but why should we care about their interests and their rights? We're not Nintendo. We're game players and artists, and it's in our interests to be able to create and share art freely.

What you might call "theft" is the way culture organically grows and evolves, and it's the way it has done so for thousands of years. Intellectual property is a recent invention that artificially restricts the free movement of culture. It doesn't exist to promote originality or help artists survive. IP law exists for the sake of capitalists and their profits by creating monopoliea over ideas. Why should we cheer this on?

Look at all these wonderful projects that have been worked on over the years. Project M, AM2R, Pokemon Uranium and Prism. Look at all the wonderful variety of fan art and fan works that surround the likes of Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Metroid, and every ofher beloved idea in gaming. This is organic artistic expression. This is our culture. The amount of people on Earth who personally hold sentiment for these ideas far outweigh the number of people at Nintendo who profit from those ideas. We as a culture should stop being so afraid to embrace the idea that our culture should belong to us. You might say that Mario for example "belongs" to Nintendo, and legally he does. But the idea of Mario exists in the minds of millions of people, and for a great deal of those people he is an idea that means something to them. Let's forgo legal constructs for just a moment and define ownership by what it truly, psychologically is; what we knew it to be long before we codified it in law: as usage, need, possesion and sentiment (e.g I own my bed because I'm the one who uses it, I need it, i have it and I like it). This is what you might think of as moral ownership- if it were codified in law that my bed no longer belonged to me and the state came to take it away, that wouldn't be right, would it?

My point here is that ideas are first of all immaterial and cannot be possessed or stolen as objects can, but more importantly is the fact that by existing as a source of happiness and artistic inspiration for millions of people, ideas like Mario and Pokemon are in fact used by a great deal many more people than those who profit from those ideas. They hold sentiment for for more people. And while they are not needed by any of those people in a strictly utilitarian sense, they aren't needed by anybody at Nintendo in that sense either, unless you consider their legal monopoly over their ideas to be a need or an inherent right.

What I'm saying here is that Pokemon and all other beloved gaming series- Mario, Zelda, everything- rightfully belong to the the people because they are a part of our culture. These ideas may have originated in the brains of people working at Nintendo, but now they're in our brains too and the human brain's creative impulses and instincts don't care about copyright. Humans are creative beings and it's in our nature to create things based on the ideas floating around in our heads. It's also in our deepest instincts to freely share those things because we are social beings. The amount of fan art and fan media surrounding Pokemon that's spread all over the Internet is a testament to this.

"Stealing" and "copying" ideas to remix them with your own take is how art and culture is naturally shared among humans. Intellectual property law deprives us of this collective right. Now we have all these ideas floating around in our heads that we can't share to the fullest extent possible and that's a very recent situation for humanity. The idea that an idea can be "owned" and that it should only ever be used by the person who introduced it isn't something inherent to human conceptions of morality. It's something that has been recently introduced into our culture and become part of our cultural programming- because it benefits capitalists.

I'm disgusted that Nintendo is shutting down fan projects and trying to stop their distribution. This is literally the suppression of culture, and yes- it's totally within their legal rights to do this, they're acting logically within their own self-interests- but that makes me even more disgusted by fhe situation, not less. It speaks to the fact that our legal system is designed for the interests of profit and not for what benefits common people and our culture.

I feel that video games are a form of art and we should be celebrating them as art, but instead we celebrate games as brands and we cheer on corporations. We have actual artists creating art and when Nintendo uses the law to shut it down, instead of mourning the loss of art we celebrate the protection of a brand. I know a lot of people in this thread are upset about this C&D and agree with fhe point of those last few sentences, but my impression is even those who are saddened by Nintendo's actions are probably thinking "well, it's within their legal rights, that's just how it is, and we do need IP law after all..." And it seems like this discussion is always framed in terms of "Fair use is okay, but once your creation infringes on the profits of a capitalist it's gone too far." So I just want to introduce this idea into these discussions because I never see it. That it doesn't have to be this way and we should question the legal structures that allow this to happen in the first place.
 

ChazGW7

Member
Eh who cares anymore, its leaked! To those that have played it, how is it? First impressions? Is it more adult/mature oriented than the regular Pokémon games or about the same?
 

AzureFlame

Member
Eh who cares anymore, its leaked! To those that have played it, how is it? First impressions? Is it more adult/mature oriented than the regular Pokémon games or about the same?

I'm in love with it, but the question is, is this the full game? I mean it not 1.00, what its missing?
 
Nintendo could stop being dumb, get publishing rights to the mod and release it as a new retro Pokemon game without any real effort on their part.

You know, just like how Sega treats modders. Hire them and let them do something official.
 

Joqu

Member
Glad it got leaked, this is one I've been looking forward to

And yeah, disappointed Nintendo's going after rom hacks now. I guess people really need to keep this stuff low profile from now on, they wouldn't have gone after it otherwise. But still.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
Going after ROM hacks now? What's the next step for Nintendo? Going after fan art? I can't wait until everyone who draws a pikachu gets a C&D! Gotta protect your trademarks, can't have everyone murking up your brand with crappy art!

Nintendo keeps coming off as asshats.

Didn't they go after some artist a while ago?
 

brad-t

Member
People always say this as if we should be on corporations' side and want them to protect their IP.

Pokémon isn't produced by some monolothic corporate black box; it's the product of writers, artists, designers, musicians, programmers, and many other creatives who may have their own ideas about how they want their work to be treated and/or legally protected.

There are tons of ways to produce fanworks about Pokémon without infringing on its creators and rights-holders, and without making a hack of one of their games.

Arguing incessantly about whether Nintendo is "right" or "wrong" to do this is irrelevant. It's their creative work to protect as they see fit, and it certainly can't be framed as the kind of malevolence some in this thread would like to. Nintendo has made emphatically clear, time and time again, that these kinds of projects cross a boundary and that they will take action.

I don't think it's fair to constantly push this boundary, get the same result, and begin the outrage cycle again anew.
 
Its very simple, put your time and effort into making something original rather than copying somebody else's work. Yes it is fan made,but if you can make something good then just make something completely new. You can still make it very similar to pokemon without making it pokemon. And yes i know its a rom hack, not something completely original.
 
Going after ROM hacks now? What's the next step for Nintendo? Going after fan art? I can't wait until everyone who draws a pikachu gets a C&D! Gotta protect your trademarks, can't have everyone murking up your brand with crappy art!

Nintendo keeps coming off as asshats.

They've already been doing that. Nintendo has been going full ham on fan works of all kinds lately and I find it very disappointing that so many people here are defending it like they own stock with the company.

Now that it got leaked, we can see first hand if the entire Pokemon IP will fall into shambles now that a mod of a 17 year old game exists (Protip: it won't.)
 

Berordn

Member
That seems to be the main justification for Nintendo wasting their time going after fan works.

Nobody's saying that the romhack itself would cause the IP to fall apart. Nintendo probably doesn't care that it's out in the wild or that people are playing it.

What they are saying is that Nintendo not reacting to unsolicited free use of their IP would impact their ability to defend it in the future should someone make a derivative work and attempt to sell it commercially, by citing examples of these hacks floating around and not being pursued by Nintendo's legal teams resulting in the IP falling into public use.
 
Nobody's saying that the romhack itself would cause the IP to fall apart. Nintendo probably doesn't care that it's out in the wild or that people are playing it.

What they are saying is that Nintendo not reacting to unsolicited free use of their IP would impact their ability to defend it in the future should someone make a derivative work and attempt to sell it commercially, by citing examples of these hacks floating around and not being pursued by Nintendo's legal teams resulting in the IP falling into public use.

I was willing to put up with this argument in the past, but now that I'm seeing that even drawings aren't safe I can't really abide by it anymore. It's a silly overreaction over a fake problem that never hurt them before.
 

Kyzer

Banned
People are coming up with every possible reason to rationalize their wish that companies should choose to not protect their IPs and copyrights with little to back it up other than wishful thinking. Like yeah guys, it would be totally sweet
 
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