...how is this relevant? You suggested that a tax cut would provide businesses with the opportunity to grow to meet predicted demand. This argument doesn't hold water, because you're literally describing the foundation of capitalism -- which is that you can borrow capital to expand your business. The government doesn't have to get involved! Are you now suggesting that you cannot predict demand? Or are you making some other point?
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PoliGAF 2012 |OT4|: Your job is not to worry about 47% of these posts.
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...how is this relevant? You suggested that a tax cut would provide businesses with the opportunity to grow to meet predicted demand. This argument doesn't hold water, because you're literally describing the foundation of capitalism -- which is that you can borrow capital to expand your business. The government doesn't have to get involved! Are you now suggesting that you cannot predict demand? Or are you making some other point?
Yeah especially Virginia. Obama has been ahead in almost every poll there this year. Maybe he knows something we don't?
I made no assumption regarding a linear path. What I believe you fail to understand is that you do not hire more people to do work that is not forecasted or doesn't exist. If demand is not increasing, if you are a smart company, you don't expand.
well obviously there weren't tax cuts on job creators if job growth was so low.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Bullshit. 20% is huge when it comes to revenue. I don't care about the companies with HUGE profits. I'm worried about those that make a living.
In addition to all evidence showing that more tax cuts will not spur growth, there's also the point that many corporations are sitting on hundreds of millions in cash because the manufacturing PMI in Europe has gone to shit. They're afraid of a worldwide recession and they've created a nest egg. Give them tax cuts and they won't hire any more, they'll just increase their nest egg.
In the clip, he seems to be saying that if the incumbent can't break 47%, they will lose in the end
speculawyer
Member
Uh . . . they don't tax revenue. They tax profits.
Is this like Alphanoid & progressive taxation?
Are you talking about a tax cut in the individual rate and applying it to pass through type companies or corporate tax cuts?
If you're talking about a cut in the individual rate and saying it's huge, then I'm not sure what to say. If you're a small business, typically that boss isn't making a ton, especially in comparison to the costs of operating the business. I mean they might make a nice sum more than the employees, but it's not going to give them enough extra money to expand their business in a big way. You're talking about 20% of $100,000 or $150,000 or whatever they're pulling in, and that's a lot of times way less than that. That's really not going to buy you a lot of expanding. You'll still have to take out a loan, and you'll still have to make a good assessment of the risk and make a smart choice.
Edit: Oh... speculawyer might be onto something there. This post is on the assumption he knows they're taxed on profit and not revenue.
One reason why I feel this argument always ends up being so circular is that those in favour of cuts always frame them as a means to an end (i.e., cut taxes to grow the economy). On the other side, those on the left see tax cuts as the actual end goal, because if evidence suggests that tax cuts aren't actually an incentive for growth, then what are they for? There needs to be an agreement on this question first before the conversation can actually move on.
Actually maybe we should just raise taxes then it would be smarter to reinvest the money into the business and hire more people.
Black Mamba
Member
The effective federal income tax rate on the middle quintile of income earners was 3.3% prior to the recession.
a 20% cut of that is very little for the median income earner. Romney is not proposing a 20% cut on all taxes, only on marginal income rates. This will mostly only make a deal to high income earners. He isn't touching payroll taxes which is the majority of most people's taxes.
20% of 3.3% of $50k is less than $500 from 3.3%. Most small businesses are not much different.
Even at $100k you're knocking off like 2 percent or $2k.
Romney's tax cuts favor the rich because their numbers are so high, his repatriation, removing the estate tax, etc.
Yeah, this might be it. I mean if you have $1m in revenue and 10% margins => 100k profit, and you get taxed 20% less than before...you can afford to hire a local teen to mow your lawn?
I don't disagree. I was simply positing on why they have not done so, based on the strategy as I last heard it.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Starting to understand why people don't want to come in here. Eh, it's cool. I'm making mistakes and learning.
You'll be a liberal by the end of the election cycle. Just embrace it.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
You've been a good sport and some people have been aggressive. That said, you'll need to bring more substance to the debate (i can't word this without sounding glib sorry).
ED: I really feel like you ignored some very pointed questions and glossed over some important counterpoints. However given that it's basically all against one you don't exactly have the ability to respond to all points, but some are more important to address than others.
I think you're doing great. Don't leave just because some folks don't agree with you
It's tough, but in the end it'll solidify your beliefs. If you can stay in and make a good case, then you know your convictions are correct. If you can't, then you need to readjust.
Years ago that happened to me on the internet. I used to be a conservative, too. Over the years a lot of evidence and arguments have slowly carved me into who I am now, and I'm still changing as more evidence comes in. Years ago I didn't just leave when I realized I wasn't getting anywhere with my arguments. I adapted with what I saw as reality. I do hope you came in here with an open mind to those sorts of things. I'm not saying you'll become liberal or anything like that. Maybe you can teach some of us some things, I don't know.
OH COME ON
Look, I realize that this place is a cesspool of diseased lefties, but (almost) everybody here's been totally respectful to you. People have responded to you with empirical evidence, facts and figures, and gave you (and are STILL giving you) plenty of time and opportunity to respond. There's no need for you to be whining about anything.
Here's some perspective. How many right wing forums have I been banned from? ALL OF THEM. Fuck, on the Hannity forums I literally got banned before I made my first post! When we start acting like that, then you have a right to complain.
Until then, sit down, shut up, and enjoy your goddamned abortion!
RustyNails
Member
Well, you can't walk into a liberal den and claim tax cuts spur job growths, avoid talking about bush tax cuts, and that Mitt Romney is better for companies, without some serious backing up.
Only thing I got out of you was you throwing away The Atlantic in the cesspool with Fox News.
Black Mamba
Member
I don't see anyone being rude. Just trying to discuss your position.
I'm certainly not trying to drive you off, just have a discussion. We need more policy discussion here, anyway. FTR, I'm not a liberal, democrat, or Obama supporter.
Right now we want to stimulate Demand, right? I think tax cuts, mostly among the wealthy, would have some of the smallest effects out of all the government's options based on empirical evidence and economic theory. So why do it?
Exactly.
RiccochetJ: There is NOTHING wrong with having your opinions aggressively challenged unless it devolves into name-calling and personal attacks. Many of the liberals in PoliGAF disagree on a lot of things (AA was something we were arguing about a few pages back). I don't understand why some conservatives on GAF (not you) are so afraid to have their political views challenged that this thread is just folks on the left, far left and center debating lol
Why does Mitt dislike kids
Really kind of sad that they won't do this. I think I remember this when I was a kid.
Really kind of sad that they won't do this. I think I remember this when I was a kid.
Why does Mitt dislike kids
Really kind of sad that they won't do this. I think I remember this when I was a kid.
He was scared of the Big Bird questions. Those kids will grill you.
Why does Mitt dislike kids
Really kind of sad that they won't do this. I think I remember this when I was a kid.
I don't think PoliGAF could handle the polling data that would come with this.
I was about to say this. When he broke out the glasses I burst into laughter.
Yep thread in OT
makingmusic476
Member
Oh, we've stopped freaking out about polls?
I'm still freaking out. Somebody hold me. =(
I'm still freaking out. Somebody hold me. =(
Why don't they be honest and say the can't afford/won't pay for polling in those states? What a shitty excuse to not poll those states, especially when their own polls showed Obama leading in two for them.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/stacey-d...rt-on-piers-tells-naysayers-do-your-homework/
It's that Clueless chick.
It's that Clueless chick.
NihonTiger90
Member
Romney wins over kids crowd by 4-to-1 margin after vowing to abolish school, give everyone free ice cream
SouthernDragon
Member
That segment was amazing. Why can't a real reporter step up to this shit.
I think at this point if you're freaking out you need to do your best to make this Daily Show segment that's currently airing go viral with every single person you know. It absolutely eviscerates Romney's "plan."
I think at this point if you're freaking out you need to do your best to make this Daily Show segment that's currently airing go viral with every single person you know. It absolutely eviscerates Romney's "plan."
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Goddamn I like you!
ryutaro's mama
Member
So what did I miss today?
Quick run-down, don't have time to re-read the thread tonight.
Quick run-down, don't have time to re-read the thread tonight.
RustyNails
Member
Polling showed Romney will be our next president.
We all panicked and then cried and hugged.
Then another poll came out saying Obama's still got a hold of Ohio.
I think PD said something about not doing horse race politics anymore.
Mitt reversed his stance on abortion, and then the campaign reversed it back later.
And a conservative joined our midst a little while ago, yay.
Black Mamba
Member
some models went to Likely Voter and showed Romney with big gains (Gallup +2) and new Ohio poll by CNN shows Obama +4 among LV.
Some freakouts as a result. He's almost to 30% on Nate's model.
Most polls still contained the first 48 hours after the debate as most of the poll, so it's impossible to really know where reality exists.
Also Jordan Hill only out 1 month. WHEW
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Nah, no one is driving me off. I'm just getting more responses than I'm used to is all
Edit: IMO no one is being rude. It's a good debate.
"My whole inclination is to predict the election of Thomas E. Dewey by a heavy margin and devote my time and efforts to other things."
soul creator
Member
she was also in a movie called Clueless
Black Mamba
Member
Nah, no one is driving me off. I'm just getting more responses than I'm used to is all
ah, okay. That's different.
No one here is demanding you respond to everything all at once or at all. But we would like diversity in this thread so I hope you do stick around.
makingmusic476
Member
Everyone's saying it's awesome. I wish I could watch it right now.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Wait...the poll went from 50-45 to 47-47 to Romney up 2 in the span of 1 day?
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