• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Did the Democratic base or Liberals even hate Bush as much as the right hates Obama, even at the height of the Bush administrations fuck ups?

I think Obama has faced record levels of "otherization". Bush recieved a lot of hate, but I did feel like except for some of the true crazies who were protesting on the white-house lawn or whatever there was a sense that he was our idiot. Obama isn't just a bad president in the eyes of much of the country, he is fundamentally un-American and he threatens what they see as the core of their life, regardless of if they believe in the birth certificate crap or not.
 
Did the Democratic base or Liberals even hate Bush as much as the right hates Obama, even at the height of the Bush administrations fuck ups?

I don't think so. There was a lot of name calling but if he proposed something the dems liked they went with it. Medicare part D (In the senate it divided the house), Iraq war, I think they were behind him on immigration, etc. They genuinely IMO care more about policy and getting stuff done than pure political gain

I could be wrong but at least people on the hill got bills passed back then
 

Jimothy

Member
Did the Democratic base or Liberals even hate Bush as much as the right hates Obama, even at the height of the Bush administrations fuck ups?

Bush invaded a foreign country unprovoked that caused the deaths of 100,000 innocent people, so the left's hatred of him was not completely unfounded. Obama certainly has reasons to be hated, but the right hates him for all the wrong ones (because he's black).
 

Blearth

Banned
Bill Ayers walked into my workplace yesterday. Joked with him about Obama as I assumed it was a different dude with the same name. Turned out it was actually him.
 

Clevinger

Member
Obama certainly has reasons to be hated, but the right hates him for all the wrong ones (because he's black).

Nah. They hate him because Rush and Fox News and company make up all sorts of bullshit about him. Being black is like the cherry on top of that hate sundae.
 
Did the Democratic base or Liberals even hate Bush as much as the right hates Obama, even at the height of the Bush administrations fuck ups?

Dems/liberals hated Bush, no question. But not to the point that merely working with him or saying nice things about him could jeopardize a politician's career. The only dem who was hounded by the left was Lieberman, for obvious reasons.

Bush passed a lot of stuff with democrat votes, including Medicare part D. There was a subgroup of moderate to conservative democrats who were willing to work with him on a host of issues, whereas today the "moderate republican" is almost extinct.

It's easy to see right through a lot of the rhetoric coming from republicans like Lindsey Graham and others when election season heats up. They have to show their base they hate the president too. Graham is currently working on immigration reform but it wouldn't be outlandish to predict he'll walk away from the table the minute he doesn't get 100% of what he wants, and the minute Obama gets involved.
 

Qazaq

Banned
Is anyone watching Rachel Maddow interview the two Sandy Hook parents who lost their son?

Such powerful, devastating stuff. Even moreso because you can see how strong they're being in the face of unimaginable grief.


And the father, David Wheeler, is INCREDIBLY well-spoken. So powerful.
 

je0uD.png
 
Hey guys. What's the best way to learn more about current politics? I feel like I should know more than I do.

Particularly, I want to know why it's a good/bad idea to raise the debt ceiling. I know that it doesn't matter how much debt we have, as the country has always had debt - rather, the health of the economy is determined based off of the money generated being enough to keep running smoothly. So the Democratic party wants to raise the debt ceiling and the Republican party wants to cut spending...

If the debt ceiling is raised, then we keep operating as normal under the new ceiling. What happens if we hit the debt ceiling? To save you guys the stupid question, I did Google that, but all I got was "unprecedented economic/legal crisis." Will our credit rating just lower more? And if the debt ceiling is irrelevant, why have a debt ceiling?

Finally, if all of the above is true... why do Republicans not want the debt ceiling raised? Sorry for all the questions.
 
In a hypothetical scenario where we hit the debt ceiling my guess is we'd pay off our debt 100% to ensure that there is no loss in confidence that is massive and no default.

However, it will result in a massive reduction in government spending. Only like 60% of current spending will happen. That is a massive reduction that will slow down th economy in a massive way. You're halting 1 trillion. With so much less being spent it would put the country and possibly the world in a large recession.


Edit: GOP want to raise the debt ceiling. They just want to get something for doing it. They are holding it hostage to achieve their goals.
 
House GOP Leaders Consider Four-Year Debt Limit Deal

With the administration’s debt ceiling deadline fast approaching, House Republican leaders are considering a four-year debt limit increase that would take the issue off the table for the rest of President Barack Obama’s presidency.

The plan would, however, come at no easy price for Obama, who pledged as recently as Monday morning not to negotiate with Republicans on a debt ceiling hike. Republicans would demand major tax and entitlement changes — the latter of which has been anathema to many Democrats — and they could also ask for movement on the sequester and an expiring continuing resolution that must be dealt with in the next three months.

The idea was one of many brought up over Sunday and Monday, as Speaker John A. Boehner of Ohio and his leadership team and staff held a strategy session in Warrenton, Va.

“We have an opportunity to inject years of certainty while doing some fundamental tax reform and entitlement reform,” said Rep. Steve Southerland II of Florida, the sophomore class leadership representative, who was at the meeting.

In addition to the four-year plan, ideas for extending the debt ceiling ranged from a one- or two-year increase to one that would last only 30 or 60 days.

Still, the ultimate decision on which path to take will not be forged until the rank and file have their say at the full conference retreat, which starts Wednesday in Williamsburg, Va. It is a function of the decentralized power that Boehner holds: He sets the agenda, but it is up to his conference whether to accept it.
http://www.rollcall.com/news/house_gop_leaders_consider_four_year_debt_limit_deal-220724-1.html
(more at link)

Very interesting, and something that would certainly appeal to Obama's desperate for a "grand bargain."
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
This is why we may never see republicans truly working with Obama: their base hates him with the power of 1000 suns. And because of that, multiple senators and representatives pull shit like this as a means of satisfying their base. Instead of coming out and saying "no one is taking your guns away" they simply fan the flames of ignorance and anger. I feel like someone is going to get shot over this.
You've got it backwards. The base hates him because of all the bullshit Republican senators and representatives spew about him.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Joker: The debt ceiling is related to the federal government's ability to meet the financial obligations it gave itself through other legislation. Basically, like deciding to pay for your food after it's already been ordered and eaten. You don't have enough cash, but you have a credit card with a limit you set for yourself. To Republicans the metaphor stops here and are saying if we're going to up the limit we need to stop going out to eat so often. To other people, the food increases your earning ability and whatever credit obligations you have become less significant over time.

Ok, that was tortured.
 

JohnDonut

Banned
By the way, that's not a thing made BY the brady campaign, that's something someone made in order to slander them. It's apparently not real.
 

Piecake

Member
http://www.rollcall.com/news/house_gop_leaders_consider_four_year_debt_limit_deal-220724-1.html
(more at link)

Very interesting, and something that would certainly appeal to Obama's desperate for a "grand bargain."

I think its interesting just because that would imply that the republicans would actually detail what cuts they actually want to make.

Of course, a more likely scenario is that epublicans will demand 1 trillion dollars in cuts and demand the president show leadership by figuring out what to cut

You've got it backwards. The base hates him because of all the bullshit Republican senators and representatives spew about him.

No, the base hates him for all the bullshit Fox news and Right wing radio spew about him. republican congressmen are just being dragged along (along with some nutsos actually being elected thanks to primaries)
 
In a hypothetical scenario where we hit the debt ceiling my guess is we'd pay off our debt 100% to ensure that there is no loss in confidence that is massive and no default.

However, it will result in a massive reduction in government spending. Only like 60% of current spending will happen. That is a massive reduction that will slow down th economy in a massive way. You're halting 1 trillion. With so much less being spent it would put the country and possibly the world in a large recession.


Edit: GOP want to raise the debt ceiling. They just want to get something for doing it. They are holding it hostage to achieve their goals.

Joker: The debt ceiling is related to the federal government's ability to meet the financial obligations it gave itself through other legislation. Basically, like deciding to pay for your food after it's already been ordered and eaten. You don't have enough cash, but you have a credit card with a limit you set for yourself. To Republicans the metaphor stops here and are saying if we're going to up the limit we need to stop going out to eat so often. To other people, the food increases your earning ability and whatever credit obligations you have become less significant over time.

Ok, that was tortured.

Thanks guys - I understand now. Perhaps I was mistaken on the Republican's motives because of Mark Levinn...

Friend of a friend linked to this image on Facebook, friend tracked down the original source and shared it with me. Rage inducing.
gZVLh.png

You know what? That's mildly brilliant. It's terrible, but I can't help but be impressed by the audacity.
 

Piecake

Member
The simple version is that everyone wants to raise the debt ceiling, because it would be beyond stupid not to raise it. The consequences of raising it are that the status quo continues. All parties involved like the status quo. The consequences of not raising it are unknown, but probably include a major freakout in all world markets, and possibly another freeze in credit and a new recession.

The slightly more complicated version is that the GOP thinks they can win concessions out of Obama by pretending that if he doesn't give them what they want, they'll let the US default and damn the consequences. There are good game theoretical reasons for them to do this if they think he'll blink first, and the precedent is that he will. So they're highly motivated to pretend that they're willing to default.

Moving a little further out, we have Crazytown, Population: Yes. One consequence of the Republicans pretending to be insane (and communicating their insanity to all and sundry) is that in some cases, it can infect people with actual insanity. Thus, stuff like that newspaper columnist talking about how we should actually lower the debt ceiling. Or Facebook posts about houses full of sewage. (And, quite probably, a portion of the GOP House) These people don't understand the actual consequences of defaulting, and so think that they can make some kind of principled stand here. The mainstream Republicans are basically ok with this as it lends some credibility to their insanity plea, but it could also bite them (all of us, really) in the ass if they can't whip people back into line.

Obama and his team must realize he simply can't blink and has to put a stop to this here. If he doesnt, he will be dealing with this shit every time the debt ceiling approaches
 
You know what? That's mildly brilliant. It's terrible, but I can't help but be impressed by the audacity.
Not to Godwyn the thread, but that's exactly what makes everything the Nazis did and planned to do so fascinating. It wasn't just the terrifying, needless, near-cartoonish evilness of it all - it was the balls it took to plan and do it.

The sheer naked unabashed audacity of it, the willingness to look at common human decency and morality right in the face and say "F*ck you! I'm building me my own reality!" is just amazing to watch. It's like the spectacle of watching Wolf Blitzer wrestling a pig. You don't want to stare, but you can't look away.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Not to Godwyn the thread, but that's exactly what makes everything the Nazis did and planned to do so fascinating. It wasn't just the terrifying, needless, near-cartoonish evilness of it all - it was the balls it took to plan and do it.
Unfortunately there comes a point where the subject of Nazis isn't just unbounded argument escalation.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
No, the base hates him for all the bullshit Fox news and Right wing radio spew about him. republican congressmen are just being dragged along (along with some nutsos actually being elected thanks to primaries)
This is true, but let's not pretend they don't go on Fox News and push the narrative. It's not like they're hesitant participants.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Turn on the Daily Show, fuck me this is stupid. Fuck CNN. Also fuck Fox and MSNBC for the trend. Oh fuck me this is just getting stupider. I am so depressed right now.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
This is true, but let's not pretend they don't go on Fox News and push the narrative. It's not like they're hesitant participants.
It's a feedback loop. The base elects politicians in their own image during primaries. Politicians rile up base. Rinse, repeat. Republican media makes the cycle work.
 
No, the base hates him for all the bullshit Fox news and Right wing radio spew about him. republican congressmen are just being dragged along (along with some nutsos actually being elected thanks to primaries)
Oh I wouldn't put it all on Fox & AM radio. They fan the flames but they are often simply spewing the venom that the people want to hear. The base loves guns, hates abortion, thinks gays are icky, don't really trust minorities unless they are 'the good ones', don't like foreigners, don't like people of other religions, etc. Fox & AM radio just spew the line because they know that is what the audience wants. It is Demagoguery 101.

Fox doesn't have some kind of Svengali control and could make them all into liberals if Rupert changed his mind and made all the programming liberal.
 

Trurl

Banned
I'm not sure how I feel about Krugman and Stewart.

On the one hand, media feuds are dumb and this would be no exception, on other I would genuinely like to see Krugman own Stewart's reasonable shtick.
 

Trurl

Banned
Krugman could be the rare guest to win the favor of the studio audience. Omg, a show down would be so cool.
I hate myself
 
Did the Democratic base or Liberals even hate Bush as much as the right hates Obama, even at the height of the Bush administrations fuck ups?
Clearly there are always extremists.

But I think answer is "No". Bush had his 90% approval rating after 9/11. And he had pretty high approval ratings for a good amount of time after that as well.

But what the base thinks is not very relevant . . . what is more important is what did the Dems do as an opposition party? And they clearly did NOT do what the GOP did. The Dems gave Bush his wars. They gave him his tax cuts. They gave him the vast majority of his appointments and some of those were loony like John Bolton. And even though many Dems voted against debt ceiling increases, the NEVER threatened to shut down the government.

The Dems basically let Bush do most he wanted except for a few appointments. At the end, Bush wasn't even really asking for anything because he knew he wouldn't get it. He just wanted out ASAP.
 
Clearly there are always extremists.

But I think answer is "No". Bush had his 90% approval rating after 9/11. And he had pretty high approval ratings for a good amount of time after that as well.

But what the base thinks is not very relevant . . . what is more important is what did the Dems do as an opposition party? And they clearly did NOT do what the GOP did. The Dems gave Bush his wars. They gave him his tax cuts. They gave him the vast majority of his appointments and some of those were loony like John Bolton. And even though many Dems voted against debt ceiling increases, the NEVER threatened to shut down the government.

The Dems basically let Bush do most he wanted except for a few appointments. At the end, Bush wasn't even really asking for anything because he knew he wouldn't get it. He just wanted out ASAP.

Bush was hated by far left liberals. I remember defending him on the interwebs from people calling him names and such.

But the hate for him was nothing like the hate for Obama. Most I could remember was Bush did cocaine, he was dumb./bad grades, and was greedy. Other than that, nothing out of the ordinary.

With Obama it's attacks on his religious beliefs, demand for his transcripts because he can't be legitimate, demands for his place of birth, attacks for being communist, fascist, etc. An that ignores the obvious race issues. I always knew Obama was going to face adversity for his race, but I never thought the attacks would be so wide-ranging and so batshit insane. His ascension made people become unhinged.

When Obama came up in '04 I saw him like a Carcetti. Maybe someone who was good but who would be compromised by the game, anyway. It's why I didn't care much for him. He was still establishment, in the end. But the way the GOP and others have responded to him have made me take his corner the past few years and now going forward. I mean, I am still a bit befuddled that the GOP is threatening the entire world economy to get its way against Obama. Their outright refusal to really work with him is vile. It must be eating away at him to see how his presidency has played out.

I absolutely loathe what the GOP has become.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom