Sirpopopop
Member
If you guys actually want some hits, you should do a Kitty Werthmann watch.
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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
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He'd probably be in my personal top 10, as well, still. Reagan does not deserve to be there.
Fenderputty
Banned
The further we get from Vietnam, the more this will probably be true.
Kennedy massively increased spending on science, with his New Frontier program, more than any other president ever. As someone who loves science, that alone puts him up there for me.
Also, didn't he come up with medicare originally?
I'm on your side, I was just explaining why I think people ranked him the way they did.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Saw this post pre edit and wondered whether it was serious. Vietnam wasn't some fuck up, it was a crime. A big fucking war crime that got a lot of innocent people killed for no reason. Since Hitler comparisons are in vogue right now: if Hitler cured cancer it would have no impact on my overall negative view on him, and the same applies to LBJ. He did wonderful things, including some JFK wouldn't have been able to do. But making Medicare better doesn't make up for the Gulf of Tonkin.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Or should those reasons be the reason why he should be high on the list? Maybe due to his "influence" he gets put higher on the list?
I don't think he was a bad President by any means, I was just making an observation based on the limited time he got to be President. Though, I do guess when you make these rankings you have to take that into consideration as with other Presidents in the top 10 we have 8+ years to judge them from, with JFK we have less than three.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Greatness isn't just measured by whose policy you agree with. Reagan changed the country in a way few modern presidents did. And while his actions didn't solely cause the Soviet Union to fail, he gets the credit for it the same way Clinton gets credit for the dot com economic surge.
If we see an era of democrat control, advances in gay rights, and an economic recovery over the next 20 years, Obama will be ranked high.
If we see an era of democrat control, advances in gay rights, and an economic recovery over the next 20 years, Obama will be ranked high.
True. If I judged these guys based solely on policy, I'd have a hard time weighing the good with the bad. A few Presidents (like Roosevelt & Johnson), while having done some amazing things, also did some horrible things (internment camps & Vietnam). It's difficult to separate policy and party from a President, but the office embodies something much more.
Whether we like it or not, Reagan is always going to be remembered as a towering figure in American history, right beside liberal giants like Roosevelt.
The Librarian
Banned
I deleted the post because the wording was poor, and no where in it did I say that passing Medicare "made up for" Vietnam. That's stupid.
And since we're all about weighing presidents, how have we not gotten to personal ranks yet?
1. Lincoln
2. FDR
3. Washington
4. Theodore Roosevelt
Gets kind of murky for me after this point, but I'd have to do some more reading to better rank the following: Eisenhower, LBJ, Truman, Jefferson, Wilson, and JFK.
Fenderputty
Banned
Can you name Reagan policy that created an influence we can still feel today as a net positive?
The war on drugs is a massive failure so no ... it's not a good reason for him to be there unless influence also includes the negative. The massive over-crowding of prisons, the racial divide the drugs laws have created (see crack cocaine) and the lack of successful metrics over the last 30+ years is IMO a giant dark spot. The longer the war on drugs continues the more this will be true. This is especially true if we ever have reform, which I believe with an ever growing progressive and secular society well eventually see it.
He was a massive reason evengelical's have any political power as well. His family movement is a large reason we still don't have equal rights for gay people, a reason drug laws are taboo to discuss, a reason we have to support Israel at all costs and why Roe VS. Wade is still even a discussion.
This doesn't even begin to touch his economic policies that can still be felt today.
jamesinclair
Banned
The older i get, the more fucked up it is that eighteen year old children are at war.
.....and porn too.some odd those eighteen year olds look uncomfortably young
PhoenixDark
Banned
JFK wasn't a good president, I thought we already settled that
I'm also curious why people have Washington high on their list. Not because I disagree, because I'd like to hear some arguments for him. Typically a lot of people rank him high just because.
I'm also curious why people have Washington high on their list. Not because I disagree, because I'd like to hear some arguments for him. Typically a lot of people rank him high just because.
Personally, I like him because he could have easily become a new King / dictator without much resistance. Left after two terms, at a time when there was no term limits.
I'm not an expert on black culture, but I think they're not huge fans of getting shot.
LBJ didn't want the Vietnam war, no president except Kennedy did, it's just that no one until Nixon figured out how to untangle that mess (though in no small part it was the almost 60k dead have moved the public opinion to a place where such withdrawal was possible)
Yeah, he mismanaged the shit out of it and a lot of good people died, and yes, he should get shit for that, but I think that pinning Vietnam on him and making it his legacy does him injustice.
Especially when you consider the political realities of the time - just pulling out support for the (oh so very corrupt but we didn't care because communism) southern Vietnamese regime and let it get overrun by the north would've been a political suicide.
For me, it's because he didn't became a dictator.
He could've been, he could've gone full Napoleon, but he chose not to, and he chose to step down.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Him and Martha were ridding dirty with their weed farm. After all, Martha would welcome him home every day with a fat blunt.
Probably because of the shit he did prior to actually being president, which I would agree should at least count a little. Also the 2 term tradition started with him which has quite huge ramifications. Just beig first he set a lot of precedence that followed through for a long time even today, and there's something to be said for getting everything up and running smoothly, too.
The whole president listing discussion is a nice time for semantic trivia, like how Martin Van Buren was the first American President (the ones before him were British subjects) or how Peyton Randolph was the first President of America (being the first President of the Continental Congress in 1774).
...I can't contribute meaningful insight so I'm falling back on trivia.
...I can't contribute meaningful insight so I'm falling back on trivia.
What did Warren G. Harding ever do you?
The Librarian
Banned
GOP cave on debt ceiling? I'll believe it when I see--
Oh, wait, it just passed the House.
Oh, wait, it just passed the House.
He's also responsible for the presidential salary, though it wasn't his idea. He wanted an expense account. He wasn't exactly the most frugal person so Congress felt giving him an expense account was a bad idea. (Thank my old college history teacher for that bit of info, he's written a few books on the era plus he's old enough to have lived through it).
Not so much a cave as it is putting it off until the sequester is done. It's too bad, I would have liked to see the contortions they would have gone through dealing with both at once.
So Nate has a new post up about presidential rankings. He has this chart in the article:
I'm a little dispirited to find Reagan above LBJ. Yeah, Reagan didn't have something like Vietnam, but aside from tax cuts for the rich and some harmful deregulation, what exactly did he do that was so great? His domestic record was pitiful compared to Johnson's.
Fucking Truman at #6? He dropped two atomic bombs just to prove a point. He started the Cold War by being needlessly antagonistic towards the Soviets. And he was a racist dickhead. Imagine if Wallace had gotten the nomination instead of him in 1944. We'd be so much better off as a country.
FDR is #2 so that's good.
Talk about big government, the dude just LOVED regulation, he was all like he was regulate this, regulate that; and it's not like he was a geek off the street or anything, he was damn good.
Game recognizes game.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
So Nate has a new post up about presidential rankings. He has this chart in the article:
I'm a little dispirited to find Reagan above LBJ. Yeah, Reagan didn't have something like Vietnam, but aside from tax cuts for the rich and some harmful deregulation, what exactly did he do that was so great? His domestic record was pitiful compared to Johnson's.
Who are the Presidents below Bush?
Warren Gangsta Harding was the first black president.
The Librarian
Banned
If Republicans aren't willing to default now, they won't be in four months. It's a cave.
Acknowledging Reagan's exiguous list of achievements, he deserves credit for promoting the Montreal Protocol which remains the most monumental international environmental accord. Without the reductions in ODSs, ozone depletion would have progressed at a significantly quicker rate. His overall record on the environment is condemnable, but credit is due on this issue.
We have before, so why not. But rather than wasting time on a thoughtful response, I'll let Drezner perform the heavy lifting. At least he spared us his incessant whining for a centrist party.
speculawyer
Member
Him and Martha were ridding dirty with their weed farm. After all, Martha would welcome him home every day with a fat blunt.
Such a great movie. Linklater is pretty hit & miss but that is definitely one of his hits. A great 'slice of life' movie of high school in the 70s.
jamesinclair
Banned
Probably the ones people never remember
speculawyer
Member
So Nate has a new post up about presidential rankings. He has this chart in the article:
I'm a little dispirited to find Reagan above LBJ. Yeah, Reagan didn't have something like Vietnam, but aside from tax cuts for the rich and some harmful deregulation, what exactly did he do that was so great? His domestic record was pitiful compared to Johnson's.
I like how Nixon is way above W Bush. So true.
One of the biggest misconceptions in American history. I posted something about it a few weeks back following an article by The Atlantic I think it was:
As for my ranking:
Top tier:
FDR - Lincoln - Washington
Mid tier:
Eisenhower - LBJ - Truman - Teddy - Clinton - Jefferson - Monroe
Kennedy and Reagan are horribly overrated.
Three of them were presidents that were alive at the end of their first terms but either didnt seek another nomination or werent chosen by their parties.
39 Andrew Johnson
42 Franklin Pierce
43 James Buchanan
Two died during their terms
40 William Henry Harrison
41 Warren Harding
gonna say 11 def be better than johnson, but below reagan
RustyNails
Member
I'd rate Teddy Roosevelt as #1 or close #2.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...03f8ee-64ce-11e2-85f5-a8a9228e55e7_story.html
Damn, Hilary went in!
I'm good with Lincoln and FDR in the top two spots. I'd swap Washington and Teddy Roosevelt's spots though.
Liberals weren't overreacting during the Bush years, he was the worst president since Harding (who did nothing), and if you exclude Harding, the worst since Andrew Johnson. He was almost universally bad.
Conservatives, on the other hand, who have been moaning and bitching about how Obama is the worst for the past four years, are definitely overreacting. I'm not saying he's top 3 (it didn't help that he was dealt what may be the worst Congress in history), but I could see him top 10, at the very least over Clinton (who is 18 in that ranking).
11 is Polk. (He didn't die or lose reelection, he had just pledged to only serve one term).
Conservatives, on the other hand, who have been moaning and bitching about how Obama is the worst for the past four years, are definitely overreacting. I'm not saying he's top 3 (it didn't help that he was dealt what may be the worst Congress in history), but I could see him top 10, at the very least over Clinton (who is 18 in that ranking).
11 is Polk. (He didn't die or lose reelection, he had just pledged to only serve one term).
Why is clinton midtier though?
RustyNails
Member
I watched PBS' 3 part docudrama The Abolitionists...you'd be amazed at some of the things Abe said and did with regards to blacks. It almost seemed like emancipation proclamation was political opportunism.
You will also rank him lower if see it
Its available free online.
Depending on what he accomplishes now I could definitely see him hitting 10 or possibly further, though I wonder how much of that is tied to knowing just how shitty this congress is. I wonder if history will remember that part as much.
I also think it might depend on the next president, too. If a democrat wins, then Obama might be viewed as really turning the tide. If not, it depends on how and why that Republican wins.
Ulysses S. Grant deserves to be way higher up. Dude was radical as shit when it came to protecting the rights of freed slaves. He put down several southern uprisings and shut down the KKK. If it weren't for the Panic of 1873 and the scandals during his presidency, he'd easily be a top 10 president.
He was given an easy hand, and yet had some fuck ups here and there:
DOMA, DADT
Mogadishu (Black Hawk Down)
Budget surpluses (which inevitably led to an economic downturn as they always have in history)
Didn't take al-Qaeda seriously enough, despite 1993 (WTC), 1998 (embassy bombings), 2000 (USS Cole), which led to 9/11
He also had his share of good things and was far from a bad president, but in the end he wasn't a great president either. He just had the luck of presiding over a great economy.
Officerrob
Banned
Fox is already spinning the 'angry woman' angle
They had to spin it some way. If Republicans thought Clinton was going to bend over and say sorry, they were out of their minds
The Librarian
Banned
I don't know much about the build-up, but the handling of the incident is what he did well. He, along with his brother and a few others, was the only one in ExComm and NSC meetings *and meetings with Congressional leaders* that wasn't pushing for a full-blown retaliation. LBJ was arguing for an air strike on the missile sites, and the other war-hawks in the room were pushing for at least that, and at worst an invasion. Kennedy did everything he could to give Krushchev the opportunity to back down.
I'd go into more detail but I'm on my phone.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Holy mother of God fuck Paul Ryan up his tight ass. HOW CAN HE SAY DEMOCRATS GOT REVENUE FROM THE FISCAL DEAL CLIFF AND NOW THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO GIVE BUDGET CUTS TO REPUBLICANS, WHEN DEMOCRATS GAVE AWAY REVENUE TO GIVE REPUBLICANS MORE TAX CUTS OH GOD THE PEINS IM DROWNING IN THEM POLIGAF I CANNOT CONTROL MY RAGE...
Worst post of the thread so far, I know.
Worst post of the thread so far, I know.
Oh it was total opportunism. He did it just so the rest of the world wouldn't side with the South, "we're fighting for a people's freedom" and whatnot. That said, no one else has really had to face those sort of challenges and in the end the nation came out better than it was going in.
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