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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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E

el retorno

Member
Dr. Pangloss said:
Why are we talking about Germany? It's Asian countries that hold most of our debt: China, Japan, Taiwan, etc. They can't get paid whenever they want, but they can stop buying bonds (not likely, what other financial instrument are they going to park their money in?) or they can dump the ones they do have on the market (resale them). That would probably spike our interest rates on future debt and put investor faith in our government in jeopardy.
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They hold a lot but I don't think even half.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

Also how the hell does Luxembourg even have that much money?
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
codhand said:
I don't think surplus is the greatest thing, it should be put in a reserve fund, and if we get to a certain level, we cut taxes and let people create their own wealth.
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What should be put in a reserve fund?

codhand said:
Isn't that happening now? A trade surplus would be nice, ban walmart and home depot. :)
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No, that's not what is happening now. The government is not running a surplus. It is running a deficit, i.e., adding financial assets into the domestic private sector. That is necessary as long as there is a negative trade balance (removing financial assets from the domestic private sector) and a growing economy.

Dr. Pangloss said:
Why are we talking about Germany? It's Asian countries that hold most of our debt: China, Japan, Taiwan, etc. They can't get paid whenever they want, but they can stop buying bonds (not likely, what other financial instrument are they going to park their money in?) or they can dump the ones they do have on the market (resale them). That would probably spike our interest rates on future debt and put investor faith in our government in jeopardy.
Click to expand...

We have no need of selling them bonds. Or of selling anybody bonds. It's an antiquated legal relic from the days when dollars were convertible into gold and nothing more.
 
E

el retorno

Member
empty vessel said:
We have no need of selling them bonds. Or of selling anybody bonds. It's an antiquated legal relic from the days when dollars were convertible into gold and nothing more.
Click to expand...

What happens when inflation happens? What about the Foreign Exchange market? Why would they have any faith in the currency?
 
C

codhand

Member
empty vessel said:
What should be put in a reserve fund?
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Could invest it, loan it to people to make factories. Here is money, give us 5% interest on a 20 year loan.

No, that's not what is happening now. The government is not running a surplus. It is running a deficit, i.e., adding financial assets into the domestic private sector. That is necessary as long as there is a negative trade balance (removing financial assets from the domestic private sector) and a growing economy.
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We have taxes, that's gov't taking money from the private sector. What's a deficit to the private sector? That would be taking more money than they have.
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
codhand said:
What's a deficit to the private sector? That would be taking more money than they have.
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And what happens when you introduce the level of taxation, and correspondingly cut the level of spending, that is necessary to cause a private-sector deficit, i.e., "achieve a balanced budget"?
 
P

pigeon

Banned
RDreamer said:
Why in hell would our government have to pull in a surplus for 64 years in order to then hoard more money so they can then loan it out?
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Let me note here that if this were a good investment, we could do it now, setting an interest rate lower than a new business would pay to a bank but higher than the government pays to its creditors, and make money on the deal. In fact, that's exactly what we DO do.
 
E

el retorno

Member
Dax01 said:
LEADERSHIP
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Its absolutely absurd that people aren't going to vote for him because of his stances on Israel, a foreign country. What country is it his job to protect the US or Israel? because I think to a lot of senators its Israel. And thats downright treasonous.

I wonder if even if he fails Obama is sending a message to Bibi.

empty vessel said:
Why would inflation happen? The government would be spending less by not selling bonds.
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Printing money to fulfill all spending obligations? Unless you're just gonna tax all the money out which is gonna kill foreign investment I'd imagine.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
el retorno de los sapos said:
Its absolutely absurd that people aren't going to vote for him because of his stances on Israel a foreign country. What country is it his job to protect the US or Israel because I think to a lot of senators its Israel. And thats downright treasonous.

I wonder if even if he fails Obama is sending a message to Bibi.
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lolno. with hagel our policy towards israel will remain largely unchanged
 
R

RDreamer

Member
el retorno de los sapos said:
Printing money to fulfill all spending obligations? Unless you're just gonna tax all the money out which is gonna kill foreign investment I'd imagine.
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If you spend by tying it to bonds, then you spend a dollar, and also print more dollars in order to pay back the bond holder. That's more money in the system.

If you skip paying back the bond holder and just print that dollar how exactly does that lead to inflation? There are less dollars in this scenario than the first.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
el retorno de los sapos said:
Will you be wrong once again when something gets passed?
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The assault weapons ban will not pass the house, you can write that down.

I'm more optimistic on background checks, but even that is easily clouded by FUD. I got into a facebook skirmish with a libertarian who argued background checks shouldn't be allowed because the government would place veterans on the list, citing PSTD as a mental illness. A quick google search found a lot of right wingers believe this shit. Likewise there is a dedicated movement against banning high capacity clips, which is another avenue I think could potentially pass but could also die in the house.

The focus should be on illegal guns imo, which would mean a focus on background checks and closing gun show loopholes. The issue isn't legal gun owners, most of whom are not violent people - it's people buying tons of guns at gun shows and selling them on the streets illegally, and the constant cycle of those guns passing into the hands of criminals

Schools will get shot up until suburbs start putting metal detectors and metal locked doors in buildings. If Detroit can afford it, so can suburban districts.
 
R

RDreamer

Member
The gun control legislation that's been brought up is largely silly and ineffective. There are some great things we could do to lower gun violence, and it's a tragedy that no one's really bringing those things up.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
I can't help but think the executive branch could do some things unilaterally on background checks, but I'll have to find some info on that. Also it wouldn't hurt to get an ATF director approved, perhaps through recess appointment. But of course congress has made it very hard for the ATF to do its job in multiple ways
 
E

el retorno

Member
Black Mamba said:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...5f9b0c-55d9-11e2-8b9e-dd8773594efc_story.html

Krauthammer, the anti-PD in terms of viewing Obama's strategy.

Sounds salty, too.
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Second, as an end in itself. Fundamentally, Obama is a leveler. The community organizer seeks, above all, to reverse the growing inequality that he dates and attributes to ruthless Reaganism. Now, however, clothed in the immense powers of the presidency, he can actually engage in unadorned redistributionism. As in Tuesday night’s $620 billion wealth transfer.
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Someone saw lincoln
 
G

gcubed

Member
I've been travelling around some areas of Europe the last week and have 3 things no American should complain about... taxes, tolls, and gas. Filled up a diesel Volvo for 107 euro. The toll for the road I took was 27 euro. Taxes are self explanatory. Though they have shockingly better quality roads... its almost embarrassing to think about roads in the US
 
E

el retorno

Member
gcubed said:
I've been travelling around some areas of Europe the last week and have 3 things no American should complain about... taxes, tolls, and gas. Filled up a diesel Volvo for 107 euro. The toll for the road I took was 27 euro. Taxes are self explanatory. Though they have shockingly better quality roads... its almost embarrassing to think about roads in the US
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Where in Europe? There still are some shitty roads in Europe though. You also know know why they're pissed at austerity their not getting the same thing but asked to pay even more.
 
W

worldrunover

Member
TacticalFox88 said:
http://www.politicususa.com/tim-huelskamp-convinced-sandy-victims-relief.html

Once again, everytime I think the GOP can't get worse....they always ALWAYS prove me horribly wrong.
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I have been in over 300 homes doing assessments through the south shore of Long Island for the last two months, and I implore this gentleman to accompany me if he has his doubts. People still have not even BEGUN to gut their homes because they don't have the money to do so, have to wait for the insurance claim to go through, or are just too elderly to get it taken care of properly. I was in a house LAST WEEK that still had carpeting down, mold on the walls, and furniture in the living room. These people had 4 FEET of water in their living rooms. Many don't even have the money to get their electrical boxes fixed so the power authority can turn their electric back on.

It's been TWO MONTHS and it's still a disaster. FEMA can only do so much. Thankfully the local county government is stepping in and helping, but they are going to need to be reimbursed as well, and that's not going to come from FEMA. Honestly that article just saddens me more than anything. SMH
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
04economix-jobs-historical-blog480.jpg


How does that compare? It is by far the largest four-year decline in government employment since the 1944-48 term. That decline was caused by the end of World War II; this one was caused largely by budget limitations. The only other post-1948 four-year drop was during Ronald Reagan’s first term, when government employment fell 0.6 percent.
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le sigh.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
CyclopsRock said:
In fairness though, you could build a road that travels all the way from Paris in the West to Kiev in the East and it wouldn't even be long enough to drive from one side of Texas and back again. The US is a big ol' place.
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That's like saying we shouldn't have single-payer health care because we have a lot of people.
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
CyclopsRock said:
In fairness though, you could build a road that travels all the way from Paris in the West to Kiev in the East and it wouldn't even be long enough to drive from one side of Texas and back again. The US is a big ol' place.
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this is trolling, right (for more reasons than what dax just articulated)

the most direct route east-west between paris and kiev (aka the one that avoids those filthy belgians) is 2400 km/1500 miles

or slightly shorter than tuscon to birmingham

and i'm not even adding portugal and spain to this
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
Dax01 said:
That's like saying we shouldn't have single-payer health care because we have a lot of people.
Click to expand...

eBay Huckster said:
this is trolling, right (for more reasons than what dax just articulated)

the most direct route east-west between paris and kiev (aka the one that avoids those filthy belgians) is 2400 km/1500 miles

or slightly shorter than tuscon to birmingham

and i'm not even adding portugal and spain to this
Click to expand...

I was having a bit of fun really, but I guess my point was more that the population density of the US in general is so much lower than Europe that it's not hard to see why roads would get less love in the US. There are roads in the US that hardly get used and yet, for the people that do use them, they're absolutely vital. That happens much less frequently in Europe, in my experience.

Incidentally, I said "if you could building a road". The distance between Paris and Kiev is approx 1,250 miles, and Texas is approx 800 miles across. Ergo you couldn't drive from one side of Texas and back in the same distance.
 
C

Chichikov

Member
CyclopsRock said:
I was having a bit of fun really, but I guess my point was more that the population density of the US in general is so much lower than Europe that it's not hard to see why roads would get less love in the US. There are roads in the US that hardly get used and yet, for the people that do use them, they're absolutely vital. That happens much less frequently in Europe, in my experience.

Incidentally, I said "if you could building a road". The distance between Paris and Kiev is approx 1,250 miles, and Texas is approx 800 miles across. Ergo you couldn't drive from one side of Texas and back in the same distance.
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They're investing on average more than double than the US (as percentage of GDP) on infrastructure.
I think that's a better explanation than population density, especially when you consider as European countries which are sparser than the US like Denmark and Sweden still have much superior roads.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
eBay Huckster said:
this is trolling, right (for more reasons than what dax just articulated)

the most direct route east-west between paris and kiev (aka the one that avoids those filthy belgians) is 2400 km/1500 miles

or slightly shorter than tuscon to birmingham

and i'm not even adding portugal and spain to this
Click to expand...

technically, texas is 770 miles wide and 790 miles long, so it IS farther to drive from one end of texas and back than it is to go paris to kiev (by the most direct route.)

it's stupid and disingenuous, but technically correct.
 
Z

zero_suit

Member
Chichikov said:
They're investing on average more than double than the US (as percentage of GDP) on infrastructure.
I think that's a better explanation than population density, especially when you consider as European countries which are sparser than the US like Denmark and Sweden still have much superior infrastructure.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we spend way too little on infrastructure, hence why it sucks ass.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
Cyan said:
Posted yet? This is damned hilarious. On the Boehner speakership vote, and the tragically inept opposition:
Click to expand...
"Fuck, I hate Boehner."
"Yeah, we need to throw out the bum!"
"Okay. Who wants it?
"Fuck, are you kidding? That's cruel and unusual punishment."
"I agree. It's practically unconstitutional what we've made Boehner go through."
"Yeah. We are kind of crazy."
"..."
"But we need show him we won't tolerate his shit anymore!"
"Right! Okay, everyone, on January 3rd, vote for whomever you want."
"That'll show him."
"He can go fuck himself."
"What a dictator."
Chichikov said:
They're investing on average more than double than the US (as percentage of GDP) on infrastructure.
I think that's a better explanation than population density, especially when you consider as European countries which are sparser than the US like Denmark and Sweden still have much superior roads.
Click to expand...

Plus, given how huge the US is, that makes roads even more important for getting around. We need roads.
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
Manmademan said:
technically, texas is 770 miles wide and 790 miles long, so it IS farther to drive from one end of texas and back than it is to go paris to kiev (by the most direct route.)

it's stupid and disingenuous, but technically correct.
Click to expand...

the "stupid and disingenuous" part is what i was getting at.
 
E

el retorno

Member
Chichikov said:
They're investing on average more than double than the US (as percentage of GDP) on infrastructure.
I think that's a better explanation than population density, especially when you consider as European countries which are sparser than the US like Denmark and Sweden still have much superior roads.
Click to expand...

I think that also has to do with the fact they way that money is spent is often out of politician's hands. The EU commission does all that work and they aren't elected. They're pooling a lot of european money and having technocrats spend it all.

Its not like the europeans were always good at infrastructure. Spain's for example SUCKED up until the EU came and and funded the shit out of everything, southern Italy's still sucks, they've been building a highway for 20 years or something (there was a NYT article on it). Their roads are 10-20 years old compared to ours which are 50+ and subject to much more interference from the national all they way down to the local politics

Edit: the highway as been under construction for 50 years. It started in the 60s
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/08/w...rained-by-corruption.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Black Mamba said:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...5f9b0c-55d9-11e2-8b9e-dd8773594efc_story.html

Krauthammer, the anti-PD in terms of viewing Obama's strategy.

Sounds salty, too.
Click to expand...

Second, as an end in itself. Fundamentally, Obama is a leveler. The community organizer seeks, above all, to reverse the growing inequality that he dates and attributes to ruthless Reaganism. Now, however, clothed in the immense powers of the presidency, he can actually engage in unadorned redistributionism. As in Tuesday night’s $620 billion wealth transfer.
Click to expand...

When Eisenhower & Nixon taxed at much higher rates there were patriots. But when the black guy raises rates 3% on the very wealthy to a level much lower than either Eisenhower or Nixon, he is a no-good commie/thief.
 
J

jamesinclair

Banned
Wsj had an image today showing the European to tax rates.

Strong correlation between high rates and successful society. Russia was bottom.

On phone, someone post please
 
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