I started reading Jeff Greenfield's book 'If Kennedy Lived' tonight, after absolutely loving his previous two alternate history books. It's so fantastic so far. Greenfield really captures the raw humanity behind politics. It's not written like some detatched thesis, Kennedy is the protagonist of the book. The opening chapter of the book really makes me feel what Kennedy was feeling to be alone in his hotel room the morning in Dallas when bad weather prevents an open motorcade and American history (radically?) departs. He doesn't know if he'll be re-elected, he thinks LBJ's looming scandals (all but forgotten now) are about to tank his Presidency, he worries his party will split in two over race. It's fascinating how well-researched it is too.
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PoliGAF 2013 |OT3| 1,000 Years of Darkness and Nuclear Fallout
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We wouldn't have civil rights in the 60s, that's for sure, probably no medicaid (maybe medicare though).
The CIA would've probably kill more people and maybe get the US into a couple of more wars in Asia.
It's not really too hard to square these. For example:
Opportunities to develop merit are unequally distributed. This is because poor people lack merit and, as part of that, fail in their responsibilities as parents. They wrong their children by not raising them well. So then because the parents are bad, the children grow up lacking merit, and the cycle repeats. But children born in poverty can overcome it and develop merit if they try hard enough. See: anecdotes. So clearly a solution is possible - we just need more children to do that. Sadly there's no way for the government to help break this cycle by giving handouts; that only promotes dependency and produces overall worse people and perhaps is poisonous to broader society. A culture of poverty can only change from within, and we just make it worse by rewarding people for not working, etc. Maybe if we criticize them more?
It's possible to acknowledge persistent inequality due to bad luck or historical injustice while denying that there is any present injustice (edit: except that perpetuated by the victims of past injustice) and that there is any responsibility on the part of historical winners to help. Because it is, sadly, impossible for them to help. Sadly.
speculawyer
Member
Cluckin' Bell. Damn . . . GTA V is awesome.
And I love Taco Bell too. I love that 12-pack. And it gives me an excuse to grab a zillion taco sauce packets.
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
yeah i'm gonna go ahead and say I'm against AA, at least in university setting. all this does is work against the Asian American minority.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Fire sauce is mild, you wuss.
My god, you're the literal embodiment of weaksauce.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Excuse me if I actually like my sauce to actually taste good.
While I could see this fellow pointing to anecdote, it isn't exactly compelling to me compared to, say, history. A model of richly meritorious and poor merit-bereft is as only good as my willingness to hand-select this or that anecdote, it falls apart when taking in a wider view of a great number of people that do not fit it. That, and it ignores altogether negative feedback loops that are often simply out of the hands of even the most hard-working and meritorious parents: such as poverty's restriction of a child's security, nutrition, health, education, psychological maturation... all of which to my knowledge greatly compromise a child's ability to thrive. That, and this sort of untested assumption that affluence equals merit. Why should there be merit in a child inheriting a fortune, and lack of merit in a child inheriting poverty?
I would suspect him of employing a fallacy of the ideal of sorts, as though all of the right decisions could lift any given person out of poverty and into affluence. In a world with limitless opportunities, resources, and time, I could see that, but there is no indication that that world is ours. If all the world's children stood up and tried as hard as they physically could, there is no indication that they would take their meritorious reward, let alone that all the world's people would allow it to them. Hard work can be disenfranchised, it can be countered with more hard work, it can be devalued and misdirected, and ultimately I grapple with understanding people who sincerely believe that poverty is a game with a finite number of correct choices available to all to cancel it out. It's a rosy and idealistic view of the world that conceals a cynical and conniving game all its own: walk up the backs of the poor whilst promising them that one day they can follow, but to a different set of rules.
speculawyer
Member
I must say . . . you are a pussy.
But I grab a handful of mild, hot, and fire sauces everytime I go there. I don't know what it is but I love their (cheesy metaphorically) sauces. Hot is best.
empty vessel
Member
This is awesome. That's really the mind.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
The above would probably have save a friend on mine from suicide-- the last couple of weeks he was trying to find a way to get help and ran into some dead ends.
The Librarian
Banned
Eesh. I can relate. I was having severe mental problems earlier in the year and admitted myself to a local hospital because I no longer trusted myself; I was afraid I was gonna hurt myself. This was late February.
The Librarian
Banned
Avon Barksdale
Member
Straight out of the Romney playbook.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
It's not really too hard to square these. For example:
Opportunities to develop merit are unequally distributed. This is because poor people lack merit and, as part of that, fail in their responsibilities as parents. They wrong their children by not raising them well. So then because the parents are bad, the children grow up lacking merit, and the cycle repeats. But children born in poverty can overcome it and develop merit if they try hard enough. See: anecdotes. So clearly a solution is possible - we just need more children to do that. Sadly there's no way for the government to help break this cycle by giving handouts; that only promotes dependency and produces overall worse people and perhaps is poisonous to broader society. A culture of poverty can only change from within, and we just make it worse by rewarding people for not working, etc. Maybe if we criticize them more?
It's possible to acknowledge persistent inequality due to bad luck or historical injustice while denying that there is any present injustice (edit: except that perpetuated by the victims of past injustice) and that there is any responsibility on the part of historical winners to help. Because it is, sadly, impossible for them to help. Sadly.
I'm assuming your criticizing that view point?
But that does sounds like a lot like his arguments. The poorer kid just has to do really well at his horribly underfunded and understaffed school and he'll be able to break out of poverty. Never mind that colleges discriminate based on income so just working hard enough isn't going to cut it. He claimed scholarships were enough but I don't think he's aware that first of all, many are form of AA, and secondly they are not there for the fast majority of people. I think he really believes those people need to work harder than others, otherwise we're rewarding 'mediocrity'
He also doesn't really believe that a lot of racism exists today.
I really like what Johnson said
I disagree with his statement implying AA is more than equal opportunity and more like equal outcomes, I feel its at its heart about equal opportunity, its doesn't buoy someone forever, just gives them a chance they otherwise wouldn't have. They can still sink like a rock.
I'm not in favor of quotas.
I'm in favor of looking at people holistically and recognizing that there are more factors than just numbers and paper qualifications. That's pretty much all AA is. There is no one-size-fits-all solution but I don't like people ignoring historical and present day discrimination and doing nothing to fight it.
lol
Simply funding schools properly really doesnt work because poverty is no joke
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/protecting-children-from-toxic-stress/
You need to take a holistic approach basically by the time they are born. Provide pre-natal health care and work with the parent how to raise and teach their child so that they minimize that stress and then provide quality day care and pre-k so that these parents can actually work during the day.
If you ignore one over the other you are not going to be nearly as successful.
Personally, I am not a fan of trying to fix the achievement gap at college. I think that is incredibly stupid. I like Texas' 10% rule. That way the top 10% of any school can get into any state college, even some extremely low income districts. Obviously I am in favor of anti-discrimination laws, but trying to solve the issue at 18 is way too late. You gota start a lot younger because that's when the disparity develops.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I agree that college isn't the best place to fix it and it goes a lot deeper but I think using it in hiring and college isn't bad and better than nothing, especially when the political system has no desire to fix the other problems you describe.
Panetta: CIA , DOD both have place in clandestine operations
This continues to be floated in a couple of places, in particular the distinct possibility of the CIA running its own drones in the future. Hopefully on a short and tight leash, if at all.
This continues to be floated in a couple of places, in particular the distinct possibility of the CIA running its own drones in the future. Hopefully on a short and tight leash, if at all.
Christie just said that the Obamacare website issues "vindicated" him for not setting up his own exchange in NJ even though doing such a thing proves the exact opposite. Seconds later he defended his decision to expand medicaid, saying it "makes sense" for his state.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Because you're doing such a fucking amazing job already you fuck. But no, blame it on immigration you spineless jackoff.
I cannot wait until Christie crashes and burns. It's going to be amazing.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
"People are having a meeting to talk about gun safety! Let's prove how wrong they are by pointing guns at them."
Saw this earlier. Way to prove the other side wrong, guys!
Link
The Autumn Wind
The NRA and the Tea Party have shown them that intimidation works.
You're right, it isn't as bad. Still, pulling out a gun in front of someone is pretty serious if you aren't hunting or at a shooting range. If police officers had been there (and didn't know what was really going on), I'm thinking there would have been a problem.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Why does Chuck Shumer have a cardboard cut out of Barack Obama in his bed room
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/schumer-shows-off-his-shared-dc-rowhouse-video
...lmao
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/schumer-shows-off-his-shared-dc-rowhouse-video
...lmao
So Scott Walker has a book coming and shockingly enough leaves out some pretty big details that happened during his term, like this one:
http://wisconsingazette.com/opinion...-bid-to-position-himself-as-presidential.html
Am...am I reading that bolded quote incorrectly? Cause that sounds pretty hilarious.
http://wisconsingazette.com/opinion...-bid-to-position-himself-as-presidential.html
Am...am I reading that bolded quote incorrectly? Cause that sounds pretty hilarious.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
zero shift
Banned
What makes me angry with affirmative action is that its too broad.
Why should all Asian get punished? There is a mile big difference in college participation rates between the Japanese and Chinese versus say the Cambodians and Hmong.
Same with Africans. There is a big difference and history between African-Americans and African immigrants.
Am I a hippie for wanted a nation with as banks and energy sectors nationalized like Norway, healthcare completely ran by the government like Iceland, private schools banned like Finland, and cooperatives popping out like Venezuela?
Dream nation.
Hard to tell the difference when you're on the other end of those guns. And probably, especially, when you're outnumbered 10-1.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Nobody is getting 'punished', nobody is entitled to that admission, job, position there are many other factors that disqualify people but we don't complain and erect barriers to those being used to hinder people.
It's just adding and additional factor to the selection process it's not the only thing. You don't just hire someone because they are a women or minority, they still have to qualify. I'm not arguing for quotas but affirmative action to better represent minority groups where they are unjustly underrepresented. It's not a robotic automatic system.
People too often argue against what they think AA is, not it's reality.
Given the continued pressure on the freedoms of the American people by the US government, and this newfound leadership from the French, I suggest the people protest by renaming the quintessential American food of "freedom fries" to "french fries".
Ok, the Bechdel test thread in the OT has convinced me that I'm done with political threads that aren't this one (and it's decedents) on GAF. I've actively tried to avoid entering an echochamber but I can no longer take seeing the same arguments shot down over and over again. You'll have the same point refuted five or more times in the same thread! If it's not a drive by post by someone I've never seen before and will never see again it's the same faces over and over again. Gah!
Sorry for the rant from someone who mostly lurks but dose anyone else feel the same way or am I being thin skinned?
Sorry for the rant from someone who mostly lurks but dose anyone else feel the same way or am I being thin skinned?
zero shift
Banned
Well what is AA in reality?
cooljeanius
Member
Which point are you referring to that keeps getting refuted in the Bechdel test thread?
This American Life had a bit about Scott Walker's administration not too long ago.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/509/it-says-so-right-here
GOP keeping an enemies list.
You don't have to respond to everything, trust me, I know that feeling of "this post must not stand!", but at the end of the day, if you pick the dumbest post to respond to, you'll always end up conversing with idiots.
It's also good to mix it up with different people, that being said, the retirement thread was really testing my resolve...
it takes a big man to stand up to weaponless moms peacefully organizing with intimidation and by golly such giants can be found in the great state of texas
Talk about proving their point for them
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Where the term comes from is an EO that stated the government and its agencies
In the simplest terms its any action that seeks to better represent underrepresented groups. Its the awareness of injustice and equality and attempts to rectify it there are a lot of ways to do this.
Here is a ACLU positon paper on it.
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/FilesPDFs/affirmative_action99.pdf
ACLU said:
Giant Panda
Member
If you support AA for job applications, you are really just pushing worse candidates into the job a lot of the time. Having affirmative action discriminate based on race doesn't even make sense either, it should be based on income levels to be focused mostly on education as that is what really holds a lot of minorities back.
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