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[ClassyPenguin]

Kind of crazy watching conservatives talk nicely about how Mandela was a man of peace while hating on Obama for the past week because he doesn't want to nuke Iran.

He also talked a lot about income inequality, but since when do facts matter to them.

You're a day late. =P Cartoon beat you to it.

Yes, but I posted charts in BM's thread and charts make everything better.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Kind of crazy watching conservatives talk nicely about how Mandela was a man of peace while hating on Obama for the past week because he doesn't want to nuke Iran.

Eh, go read the comments in either the HotAir or National Review articles about Mandela's death. Plenty of hate for the communist terrorist Mandela there.

 

[RustyNails]

He also talked a lot about income inequality, but since when do facts matter to them.

Cant wait for Fox News and rightwingers to spin Mandela as a true conservative hero that believed in trickle-down economics and small government.

 

[Oblivion]

Welp, looks like websitegate has officially lost steam among the MSM. Told you guys that our so-called “liberal media” would eventually get severely disciplined in the FEMA concentration camps bored of it.

 

[JesseEwiak]

So, that South African guy in the Mandela RIP thread. Whoa. That is someone reacting badly to some lost privilege.

 

[Wilsongt]

Cant wait for Fox News and rightwingers to spin Mandela as a true conservative hero that believed in trickle-down economics and small government.

You're in luck!

I'm sorry the man is dead because he most likely wasn't saved, but what angers me is that Obama is on TV within hours of Mandela's death pouring out sympathy for a man who was a liberal, held Communist beliefs, and wasn't an American - all things O holds dear to his heart, but I digress. Yet, there are 8 American citizens being illegally and unjustly held in Iranian, Cuban, and N. Korean prisons tonight and not a peep out of Obama or anyone else in his evil, demented administration about these men. Personally, I didn't care for Mandela or his beliefs, still it is my hope that his family will all come to know Jesus as their Savior. I just don't relish the next few days of media coverage making him out to be some kind of god (little g).

 

[ClassyPenguin]

See what I said about this thread being a bastion of reason?
talking about the Michigan thread.

 

[speculawyer]

Cant wait for Fox News and rightwingers to spin Mandela as a true conservative hero that believed in trickle-down economics and small government.

Well good luck with that. Dick Cheney is on record as voting against a symbolic measure calling for the release of Neslon Mandela from prison. He said Mandela was a terrorist.

Dick Cheney is an awful human.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Kind of crazy watching conservatives talk nicely about how Mandela was a man of peace while hating on Obama for the past week because he doesn't want to nuke Iran.

The release of Mandela, for all that we can know, may one day be likened to the arrival of Lenin at the Finland Station in 1917

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...3tPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vlEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5176,4007216

The 15-to-2 vote was a strong bipartisan majority, with eight Democrats and seven Republicans supporting the measure. Two Republicans, Jesse Helms of North Carolina and Larry Pressler of South Dakota, dissented.

North Carolina Republican assailed Mr. Mandela as a Communist

Regan vetoed the sanctions

Nelson Mandela outperformed almost every modern head of state on the African continent by not attempting to annoint himself President for life. Nevertheless, his vicious anti-Americanism and support for Saddam Hussein should come as no surprise, given his long-standing dedication to Communism and praise for terrorists. The world finally saw that his wife Winnie, rather than being a saintly freedom-fighter, was a murderous thug. The events of 2003 are helping many Americans lose their illusions about the Old Europe; perhaps it is also time to discard the Old Media’s fantasy version of Nelson Mandela, proud winner of the Soviet Union’s Lenin Peace Prize.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/59336/course-mandela-supports-saddam/dave-kopel

 

[Black Mamba]

Well good luck with that. Dick Cheney is on record as voting against a symbolic measure calling for the release of Neslon Mandela from prison. He said Mandela was a terrorist.

Dick Cheney is an awful human.

Reagan also called him a terrorist.

 

[Karakand]

all businesses are started by someone. that person then becomes an owner. so the only way there can be no "shareholders" is if such business was started by the government.

No shares of stock are ever issued in a nonprofit entity and as such there can be no shareholders. The entirety of its equity is either restricted (i.e. assets allocated to specific purposes, a grant for example) or unrestricted (those that aren't) net assets.

I think I misunderstood the idea you were trying to get across. While Americans are certainly more literate, they are also more indoctrinated by more powerful forces, which presents an entirely different dilemma. Also, I don't know that I would call indoctrination from birth a choice to be ignorant. I mean, don't get me wrong, I get easily frustrated with the American public, but I think if we take a dispassionate and empirical view of the matter, people are products of their influences, and the ruling class's influence in the US is unmatched probably in all of human history, so Americans never really stood a chance. Of course, that doesn't mean we give up.

I will offer a more substantial comment later, but on the subject of complicity in countries like the U.S., I tend to favor the labor aristocracy hypothesis over the cultural hegemony one.

Spoiler

Tankies gonna tank.

...in Russia. Eveywhere else never shuts up about it (rightfully so).

I meant Imperial state violence, successor states' violence is certainly quite discussed.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

So, that South African guy in the Mandela RIP thread. Whoa. That is someone reacting badly to some lost privilege.

Best not to engage that.

The saddest part was the nostagia he displayed towards apartheid.

Summarizing:
"Apartheid was bad? Then why did all these blacks try to escape their crappy country to go to SA?"

Its like the crazy guy at CPAC that brought up the fact slavery was good for blacks because they were fed and housed.

 

[PhoenixDark]

RIP white South Africans

 

[NYCmetsfan]

.

 

[adg1034]

It made civil rights black and white again.

Uh-huh.

 

[zero shift]

I meant Imperial state violence, successor states' violence is certainly quite discussed.

I'm not sure how bad Imperial Russia was. Was it nearly as bad as the USSRs non-Stalin years?

 

[B-Dubs]

I'm not sure how bad Imperial Russia was. Was it nearly as bad as the USSRs non-Stalin years?

Well, pre-USSR Russia had a leader called Ivan the Terrible and the Romanovs weren't exactly the kindest rulers either. It was pretty bad. No one in Russia looks back at those times fondly.

 

[RustyNails]

.

If Mitch McConnel was a gaffer, he'd have been banned for that comment.

 

[teiresias]

Mitch McConnell is apparently trying to shore up his influence over his caucus prior to the budget negotiations getting more in depth:

Mitch McConnell Inflates Throat Pouch In Show Of Dominance Over Fellow Congressional Males

 

[zero shift]

Well, pre-USSR Russia had a leader called Ivan the Terrible and the Romanovs weren't exactly the kindest rulers either. It was pretty bad. No one in Russia looks back at those times fondly.

I meant, then, recently. While Nicholas II was in charge.

So, that South African guy in the Mandela RIP thread. Whoa. That is someone reacting badly to some lost privilege.

Like I've said before. GAF attracts specific amount of people from 3rd world and even 2nd world countries. In case you don't understand what I am hinting at, people with money and privilege. This is why overwhelmingly popular leaders such as Raphael Correa are hated by South American GAF and people say that Hugo Chavez executes political dissidents and is turning Venezuela to Cuba 2.0. Its also why Middle East threads tend to have a very Christian tone from the people in those countries.

A PS4 costs anywhere from $500 to 1800 in South America (now imagine games) and isn't that much different likely in Africa and the Middle East. Its pretty clear that the average person isn't playing videogames in these countries.

 

[B-Dubs]

I meant, then, recently. While Nicholas II was in charge.

Well, he was the last monarch of Russia, and a Romanov. He is also believed by most modern historians to be incompetent. Also as a result of his actions he was known as "Nicholas the Bloody". When your people start calling you "the Bloody," you probably aren't doing a good job. Also ever hear of Rasputin? Yep, that was during Nicholas II's reign too.

 

[WayneMorse]

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/c...the_current_strike_going_on_what_is/?sort=top

ugh. Fucking poor people, why can't they all just be STEM lords like me?

 

[User 250141]

Mandela's death is so depressing, he was one of the last great world leaders. Who do we have left alive to look up to?

Aung San Suu Kyi?

 

[PhoenixDark]

Mandela's death is so depressing, he was one of the last great world leaders. Who do we have left alive to look up to?

Ron Paul.

 

[Oblivion]

So Martin Bashir resigned from MSNBC.

Hope you guys are happy.

 

[B-Dubs]

Ron Paul.

 

[zero_suit]

LOL

 

[RustyNails]

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/c...the_current_strike_going_on_what_is/?sort=top

ugh. Fucking poor people, why can't they all just be STEM lords like me?

The problem is that the wages of ALL the earners below the top 10% have been stagnant since Reagan became president, not just the minimum wage workers. Obviously the people working shit jobs at fast food joints (and gamestop) have been hit the hardest due to rising everyday costs of travel, goods and services. So the appeal from that group of workers is the loudest, which is not surprising. Soon enough, the next group of earners will also be hit with the curse of stagnation and they will be out on the streets too. This is all the while Dow is the highest (meaning corporations are sitting on assloads of money) and the health insurance industry is set to make gangbusters bumper profit next year.

The next group of earners want a fair game where everyone's wage is increased, not just minimum wages. Raising the minimum wage is addressing symptoms of a larger problem, which is essentially income inequality.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Don't know why but this got me so good.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

The problem is that the wages of ALL the earners below the top 10% have been stagnant since Reagan became president, not just the minimum wage workers. Obviously the people working shit jobs at fast food joints (and gamestop) have been hit the hardest due to rising everyday costs of travel, goods and services. So the appeal from that group of workers is the loudest, which is not surprising. Soon enough, the next group of earners will also be hit with the curse of stagnation and they will be out on the streets too. This is all the while Dow is the highest (meaning corporations are sitting on assloads of money) and the health insurance industry is set to make gangbusters bumper profit next year.

The next group of earners want a fair game where everyone's wage is increased, not just minimum wages. Raising the minimum wage is addressing symptoms of a larger problem, which is essentially income inequality.

Interesting point made by a conservative (forgot where I read it) that I think it worth looking at in the lack of wage growth:
its getting eaten up by rising health costs. so there is a hidden wage in the form of health care premiums but obviously its the worker has no choice on how to spend it.

Not that its an excuse for the lack of growth in disposable income and quality of life (and I think the fall in labors share vs. shareholder's increase is the real problem) but I think its worth realizing that sometimes the lack of take home pay doesn't mean there's not increased compensation.

The wider point to wage discussions I think is more fundamental and treads into arguments most politicians don't want to have. Its a question of how gains and profits are distributed. There was an interesting break down by a writer for the economist who seemed to question the fundamental way our system is set up

@ryanavent
It's getting harder and harder to write about labour market economics without sounding like a damn Marxist.

@ryanavent
"No really, I love markets, but we should consider letting workers seize the means of production." - me, basically

@ryanavent
But no really, I love markets.

Workers don't see the fruits of their labor. It doesn't really mean a radical rethinking of our entire system but just a questioning of whether our current system of shareholder-first compensation is fair. Its not going to destroy markets or capitalism just how profits are distributed. Who should reap the rewards? Those doing the grunt work to make the gains or those taking the risk of fronting the capital? Thats a question we take for granted and have never really debated in this country.

Yglesias take on "workers owning the means of production"

 

[Giant Panda]

So Martin Bashir resigned from MSNBC.

Hope you guys are happy.

Good riddance. He was nothing but a hack cheerleader. What I like about this thread is that you get real discussion about policies, he almost never provided policy discussion and went straight to the praise Democrats and shit on Republicans part. You never learned anything new by watching his segment.

 

[Oblivion]

Random comment about random subject:

So as I've mentioned before, there seems to be a strong pushback by the Right about how pointing out our past of having super high tax rates on the rich isn't an indictment on conservative economics (or history for that matter) because although the rates were set very high, no one actually paid those rates. But is it not true that income inequality was much smaller back then when those rates were in effect? Doesn't acknowledging that little factoid hurt the original argument?

 

[WayneMorse]

Aung San Suu Kyi?

Yea there's her, and we still have Tony Benn so not all is lost i guess.

 

[Oblivion]

Good riddance. He was nothing but a hack cheerleader. What I like about this thread is that you get real discussion about policies, he almost never provided policy discussion and went straight to the praise Democrats and shit on Republicans part. You never learned anything new by watching his segment.

Do you still support this turn of events considering Sarah Palin will now feel justified in being a victim?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

The means of production should be in the hands of the producers. Why should the wealth creators have to tolerate the parasite? It should be removed like a leech; like a streetwalker stabbing her abusive pimp in the nutsack.

 

[Link]

Good riddance. He was nothing but a hack cheerleader. What I like about this thread is that you get real discussion about policies, he almost never provided policy discussion and went straight to the praise Democrats and shit on Republicans part. You never learned anything new by watching his segment.

I'm with you on not being a big fan of Bashir, but it's still sad he has to resign over something like this while the talking heads at Fox News spout worse shit literally every day and not only do they never deal with repercussions, they're praised for it by their base.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

The means of production should be in the hands of the producers. Why should the wealth creators have to tolerate the parasite? It should be removed like a leech; like a streetwalker stabbing her abusive pimp in the nutsack.

Well if you belief in private property rights and its applicability to money as an extention like most people your gonna have both owners and workers.

That's the whole purpose and theory behind labor unions they help represent the workers in this constant question of balance. Without labors organization you have owners dictating everything and the workers can't exert any power.

 

[RustyNails]

Do you still support this turn of events considering Sarah Palin will now feel justified in being a victim?

From the other thread,

Well we knew this was coming the moment he uttered those fateful words. I completely understand the frustration behind his comments, but it was sure-backfire material that gave Sarah Palin the Don Quixote adventure she was looking for all her life that probably validated her entire media presence and the essence of her political life itself.

It was a dumb fucking thing to do.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I've always hated bashir so I'm glad. Get more people like Hayes and maddow

Edit: how can I forget my old professor MHP!

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Well if you belief in private property rights

I dont.

That's the whole purpose and theory behind labor unions they help represent the workers in this constant question of balance. Without labors organization you have owners dictating everything and the workers can't exert any power.

Why should there be balance? Why should he have to negotiate over how much is stolen from him?

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

 

[Giant Panda]

I'm with you on not being a big fan of Bashir, but it's still sad he has to resign over something like this while the talking heads at Fox News spout worse shit literally every day and not only do they never deal with repercussions, they're praised for it by their base.

I'm definitely not happy about how his resignation came about, I agree that this will just inflate Palin's ego. I do think MSNBC will be better off without him.

 

[Rhomega Beta]

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

"No!" says the corporate execute "It belongs to me, because I work much harder than him!"

 

[Salazar]

Well if you belief in private property rights and its applicability to money as an extention like most people your gonna have both owners and workers.

That's the whole purpose and theory behind labor unions they help represent the workers in this constant question of balance. Without labors organization you have owners dictating everything and the workers can't exert any power.

I'm reading E.P. Thompson's Customs in Common at the moment. Hard to think of a more beautifully written piece of economic and social history.

 

[Black Mamba]

Bashin should have been fired for fucking up the comment. Once again he should have never said someone should shit in her mouth but rather mentioned how she's shit in ours for years.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I'm reading E.P. Thompson's Customs in Common at the moment. Hard to think of a more beautifully written piece of economic and social history.

Actually never heard of him.

I'll say I'm pretty darn sympathetic to the philosophic arguments in favor of capitalism and at my core think private property is a natural right (im a capitalist) but at the sametime I think people like Marx and other leftist thinkers contributed something that was lacking a kind of counterbalance and real world understanding of extremes.

That being said I think a lot of his prescriptions are BS and morally repugnant (the more radical ideas about family in particular in the communist manifesto run contrary to every fiber of my morals) but his theories and framing extremely interesting and important.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Uh-huh.

I think he has a point, whether or not he actually believes it. Fighting de jure segregation and injustice is far easier than dealing with lurking prejudices and the fallout of years of unequal treatment.

 

[Salazar]

Actually never heard of him.

I'm coming back to his work because I reviewed Fred Inglis's biography of Richard Hoggart a few weeks back, and it mentioned Thompson and Raymond Williams in connection with extramural teaching at Leeds - and the book reminded me how much I admire (intellectually respect and find aesthetically good) the writing of Hoggart and Williams. So I figured I'd get back into Thompson, of whose stuff I had read the least.

The writing about mobs, crowds, food riots, satirical ballads, anonymous threats, plebeian counter-theatre to paternalist political style is tremendous. And probably far from decreasing in salience.

Too many of our growth historians are guilty of a crass economic reductionism, obliterating the complexities of motive, behaviour and function, which, if they noted it in the work of their marxist colleagues, would make them protest. The weakness which these explanations share is an abbreviated view of economic man. What is perhaps an occasion for surprise is the schizoid intellectual climate, which permits this quantitative historiography to co-exist (in the same places and sometimes in the same minds) with a social anthropology which derives from Durkheim, Weber, or Malinowski. We know all about the delicate tissue of Trobriand islanders and the psychic energies involved in the cargo cults of Melanesia; but at some point this infinitely-complex social creature, Melanesian man, becomes (in our histories) the eighteenth-century English collier who claps his hand spasmodically upon his stomach, and responds to elementary economic stimuli.

Edward rocked.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Didn't see this mentioned today.

Roughly 27,000 Americans signed up for insurance on the federal exchange on Tuesday, according to internal figures, bringing the site’s three-day enrollment total to 56,000. That figure is more than double the number who enrolled online in the entire month of October, which was almost 27,000.

First two days of the week saw 29,000 enrollments combined. On Tuesday, it was 27,000, for 56k in three days.

Pretty clearly momentum is picking up greatly ahead of year end. They need to given how far behind the site set sign ups, but this is an encouraging sign.

 

[Black Mamba]

Didn't see this mentioned today.


First two days of the week saw 29,000 enrollments combined. On Tuesday, it was 27,000, for 56k in three days.

Pretty clearly momentum is picking up greatly ahead of year end. They need to given how far behind the site set sign ups, but this is an encouraging sign.

If the site averages in the vicinity of 35k enrollments per day going forward, they'll hit their target. edit: to clarify, that's for the federal exchanges only.

29k on Tuesday is great news.

 

[ISOM]

Didn't see this mentioned today.


First two days of the week saw 29,000 enrollments combined. On Tuesday, it was 27,000, for 56k in three days.

Pretty clearly momentum is picking up greatly ahead of year end. They need to given how far behind the site set sign ups, but this is an encouraging sign.

That's fucking great. The new controversy they are trying to talk about though is that there may be problems on the backend regarding whether insurers will receive all the correct information.