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[TacticalFox88]

Those threads are always depressing. On the upside NY just upped it's minimum wage to $8, which is $2.10 less than the original proposal was. It's three quarters an hour more and people complain it'll drive them out of business. Thank god I don't read the Post or the WSJ editorial section, I'd probably blow my brains out.

I've always had this food for thought if the US had the mentality of Swedes, we'd probably WOULD be number 1 in everything, just like we like to claim.

Not saying Scandinavia is perfect by any means, but it's an interesting thought experiment.

:x

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Yup. What is it with that topic and getting people to oppose their own interests?

I haven't read the thread because I'm already irate about something else. Not risking a ban.
But is it the same old arguments?

Prices will hyper-inflate
unemployment will rise
why should they get a raise for flipping burgers?
why should they get a raise when I graduated college and am working just above the min wage increase?
etc etc

 

[jamesinclair]

Those threads are always depressing. On the upside NY just upped it's minimum wage to $8, which is $2.10 less than the original proposal was. It's three quarters an hour more and people complain it'll drive them out of business. Thank god I don't read the Post or the WSJ editorial section, I'd probably blow my brains out.

$8 in Manhattan is indentured servitude

 

[Karakand]

I wonder how many of the people in this thread lamenting how people can be made to act against their own interests are Working Class but oppose Socialism.

I apologize if I'm misrepresenting your views, but I think you view it as the end goal in and of itself (instead of as a step in creating a society that's freer... namely from want and / or alienating work) which even I can't agree with and I'm a tankie.

 

[thepotatoman]

Conservative talking heads on fox need are insane and keep talking about how they are going to win the senate and make gains in the house. They are still in that bubble from romney's campaign.

It's not really that crazy to say the Republicans will win the senate. Remember that this class of senators simply have more vulnerable Democrats than Republicans up for election. If the nation simply goes 50/50 this election, Democrats could easily lose the senate.

It's basically the Republican's election to lose. Now we can make predictions and assumptions about how the Republicans will lose it all we want, but I would not make the mistake of dismissing that possibility of a Republican senate this early on.

At least wait until we have solid polling numbers close to election before celebrating anything.

 

[TacticalFox88]

I haven't read the thread because I'm already irate about something else. Not risking a ban.
But is it the same old arguments?

Prices will hyper-inflate
unemployment will rise
why should they get a raise for flipping burgers?
why should they get a raise when I graduated college and am working just above the min wage increase?
etc etc

And my favorite "Our purchasing power today is the same as it was in the 60s."

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I apologize if I'm misrepresenting your views, but I think you view it as the end goal in and of itself (instead of as a step in creating a society that's freer... namely from want and / or alienating work) which even I can't agree with and I'm a tankie.

Nah, I was just having a dig at liberals pointing it out.

Spoiler

For future reference, I'm one of those damned AnComs

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I wonder how many of the people in this thread lamenting how people can be made to act against their own interests are Working Class but oppose Socialism.

The answer is (im not working class, though not upper) I don't think socialism as shown itself to be he best way to distribute goods, promote innovation and ensure the best quality of life to the most people. It doesnt believe in private property and is distrustful of family and has shown problems through its history of not turning towards authoritarianism and a repression of dissent. It also runs into problems when you have ethnic, religious, cultural and racial divides that run deeper than class.

Capitalism unfettered clearly has problems with throwing'undeserving' people to the margins, not distributing productivity and economic gains as fairly as is probably warranted and distributing certain goods. But its track record and ability to mesh with democracy and reform while still maintaining a large amount of personal and economic freedom as well as its history of increasing the quality of life for billions is unmatched by another systems yet tried.

I'm firmly in the capitalist camp for the vast majority of the economy

 

[thepotatoman]

Wouldn't it be nice if we passed a law that mandated a rigorous understanding of economics in public schools?

Hell, I'd even start in elementary school (4th grade?) and it get progressively more in-depth with relating to their every day lives the higher in grade you got.

In these classes, they'd also learn about buying houses, paying bills, taxes, loans, advanced banking, refinancing, managing money etc. Basically life essentials.

How in-depth and "complicated" is determined by age and grade.

What subject would you get rid of to make time for it?

 

[TacticalFox88]

What subject would you get rid of to make time for it?

Simple: Don't get rid of the four (English, Science, History, Math). Just make it so students have one less elective they need to graduate or get through school.

But if I had to get rid of one subject, and it pains me to say this, it'd probably be a foreign language class (they were mandatory in my district, dunno about others, so that's my anecdote) seeing as how we already speak the lingua franca.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I've always had this food for thought if the US had the mentality of Swedes, we'd probably WOULD be number 1 in everything, just like we like to claim.

Not saying Scandinavia is perfect by any means, but it's an interesting thought experiment.

:x

We are better than the sweeds in a lot. If your in a wealthy white area. The problem in things like education is a a large part racial. Our white kids kick their white kids asses.

If you want to know when america really diverged from Europe in economic matters one need not look farther than the civil rights act of 1964.

What subject would you get rid of to make time for it?

Extend the school year/day. Get rid of electives. Include it in history/civics.

But I'm not sure I'm sold on economics being a necessary school subject as economics isn't a science and prone to manipulation (anybody been reading about how the banks have pretty much bought major econ departments and killed independent scholarship?). It already doesn't correctly discribe out current economic system and relies on outdated scholarship and ideas

 

[JesseEwiak]

We are better than the sweeds in a lot. If your in a wealthy white area. The problem in things like education is a a large part racial. Our white kids kick their white kids asses.

If you want to know when america really diverged from Europe in economic matters need not look farther than the civil rights act of 1964.

I don't have my trolling glasses on, but this is the serious argument from people like Steve Sailer and his fellow travelers, some of whom hang around the isolationist conservative website, the American Conservative.

 

[T'Zariah]

We are better than the sweeds in a lot. If your in a wealthy white area. The problem in things like education is a a large part racial. Our white kids kick their white kids asses.

If you want to know when america really diverged from Europe in economic matters need not look farther than the civil rights act of 1964.

I hope you aren't seriously suggesting that every single economic and social problem in America has its roots in racism, because that's a SERIOUS charge and reach.

 

[Oblivion]

It's not like battling a religious belief, it IS battling a religious belief. The only difference between a hardcore libertarian and a Catholic is one has a church and the other doesn't.

Yep. It's only natural that the economic fundamentalists would get along just just fine with the religious fundamentalists.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I hope you aren't seriously suggesting that every single economic and social problem in America has its roots in racism, because that's a SERIOUS charge and reach.

No. I don't mean to say that it's far more complicated than that.

What I ment was that more socialised solutions went out the window when they were extended or more accurately the guarantee made in the 14th was enforced to blacks. Nobody speaks of public goods anymore.

Public parks, public pools, good schools, unions all declined after integration. People built their own parks in the suburbs, pools in their back yards, put their kids in private schools, or moved to school districts with less minorities, left unions when the law was finally enforcing equality.

There as always been a large aristocracy and business interest in America but it was tameable in times of excess, I think with the southern strategy there was a rather nefarious marriage of racism and business interest that we still see today. I don't think they're all racist but it played a huge part in history and setting the stage for today's debates.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I don't have my trolling glasses on, but this is the serious argument from people like Steve Sailer and his fellow travelers, some of whom hang around the isolationist conservative website, the American Conservative.

I'm not trying to say that minorities are holding us back im saying resources are directed at primarily wealthy and whiter groups. Leaving many neglected

M night shamala (yes the sixth sense dude) recently touched on in his new book.

 

[B-Dubs]

Simple: Don't get rid of the four (English, Science, History, Math). Just make it so students have one less elective they need to graduate or get through school.

But if I had to get rid of one subject, and it pains me to say this, it'd probably be a foreign language class (they were mandatory in my district, dunno about others, so that's my anecdote) seeing as how we already speak the lingua franca.

I honestly like that idea but 4th grade might be a little too early. Middle school at the earliest, 6th grade or so. I don't entirely remember my 6th grade schedule, but I am pretty sure there'd be room in there for an economics class without cutting anything. Heck I know for a fact there was room for one when I was in high school because we had one.

 

[Chichikov]

The answer is (im not working class, though not upper) I don't think socialism as shown itself to be he best way to distribute goods, promote innovation and ensure the best quality of life to the most people. It doesnt believe in private property and is distrustful of family and has shown problems through its history of not turning towards authoritarianism and a repression of dissent. It also runs into problems when you have ethnic, religious, cultural and racial divides that run deeper than class.

Capitalism unfettered clearly has problems with throwing'undeserving' people to the margins, not distributing productivity and economic gains as fairly as is probably warranted and distributing certain goods. But its track record and ability to mesh with democracy and reform while still maintaining a large amount of personal and economic freedom as well as its history of increasing the quality of life for billions is unmatched by another systems yet tried.

I'm firmly in the capitalist camp for the vast majority of the economy

Socialism isn't against private property, fuck, the main tenet of socialism is workers owning the means of productions. And I don't think it's been proven anywhere that co-ops are categorically less efficient than other models of ownership.
Private property goes away in communism, which is the next stage (going by Marx's stages of history) - but it's a result of a superabundant post scarcity society. The idea there is that in a world with no scarcity, you don't need private property because everyone can get everything that they want. It's not that the government takes your property, not to mention communism is free associating stateless utopian society that doesn't even has governments.
Which is why I always say, if you want to bring communism, you should focus less on politics and more on building a star trek replicator.

p.s.
Though to be fair, the US idolize work so much (well, at least idolizing the idea that other people should work) that the transition to a post scarcity economy (which you can argue we're already pretty much there) is going to be really painful to a lot of people.

 

[TacticalFox88]

I honestly like that idea but 4th grade might be a little too early. Middle school at the earliest, 6th grade or so. I don't entirely remember my 6th grade schedule, but I am pretty sure there'd be room in there for an economics class without cutting anything. Heck I know for a fact there was room for one when I was in high school because we had one.

Well I mainly wanted it to be early simply so there would be next to no chance of libertarian fantasy economics wouldn't dominate teenagers and young adults. Well, maybe no chance is a bit of a stretch and hyperbolic, but basically Keynesian economics would be thought of as "common sense" (which it actually is when you think about it) instead of this garbage perpetuating US society right now.

 

[rocketknight]

Everybody who writes in to my local paper hates Nancy Pelosi way more than any other Democrat aside from Obama. Why is this?

 

[Oblivion]

Well I mainly wanted it to be early simply so there would be next to no chance of libertarian fantasy economics wouldn't dominate teenagers and young adults. Well, maybe no chance is a bit of a stretch and hyperbolic, but basically Keynesian economics would be thought of as "common sense" (which it actually is when you think about it) instead of this garbage perpetuating US society right now.

While I agree with the idea of teaching econ at a younger age than what it is right now, I feel you run into the same problem that you have right now: conservatives bitching that liberal economics isn't fair and therefore you have to balance this out by teaching SSE as well.

 

[B-Dubs]

Well I mainly wanted it to be early simply so there would be next to no chance of libertarian fantasy economics wouldn't dominate teenagers and young adults. Well, maybe no chance is a bit of a stretch and hyperbolic, but basically Keynesian economics would be thought of as "common sense" (which it actually is when you think about it) instead of this garbage perpetuating US society right now.

You really don't start thinking like that until high school though. You just have to make sure you get the basics in their heads before they read Ayn Rand, or give them LOTR first.

 

[rocketknight]

You really don't start thinking like that until high school though. You just have to make sure you get the basics in their heads before they read Ayn Rand, or give them LOTR first.

I'm trying to think of some crack to make about war in Middle Earth serving as fantastic economic stimulus but I'm still too caught up in how hilariously poignant your observation is.

 

[TacticalFox88]

LOTR had shitty economics?

O_O!

Did I miss something?

 

[Gotchaye]

Everybody who writes in to my local paper hates Nancy Pelosi way more than any other Democrat aside from Obama. Why is this?

She was the Speaker of the House for a while; she's the Democrat who's wielded the most power, other than Obama. And she's more liberal than Obama and has demonstrated an ability to get things passed. The only other candidate here is going to be Reid, who's got more influence right now but who isn't as influential as Pelosi used to be (the House gives Speakers a whole lot of power; Senate Majority Leaders are much more constrained), and who has backed down in fights with Republicans on several occasions. Republicans in general have an interest in not rehabilitating her now that she's less influential because there's a very good chance that she will be Speaker again at some point. Probably it helps that Pelosi is a woman.

 

[B-Dubs]

LOTR had shitty economics?

O_O!

Did I miss something?

I made a play on an old joke:

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

Apparently no one knows who the originator was, but god damn if it doesn't hit close to the truth.

I'm trying to think of some crack to make about war in Middle Earth serving as fantastic economic stimulus but I'm still too caught up in how hilariously poignant your observation is.

You're making me blush :lol

 

[Oblivion]

I made a play on an old joke:



Apparently no one knows who the originator was, but god damn if it doesn't hit close to the truth.

Wasn't that said by Krugman?

 

[B-Dubs]

Wasn't that said by Krugman?

I don't think so, he probably used it though. It's credited to like half a dozen people so finding the original would take more work than I'd be willing to put in.

 

[Rhomega Beta]

LOTR had shitty economics?

O_O!

Did I miss something?

I'm not really sure what kind of economy it even had. All the races kept to themselves, it seems. The only ones that had some sort of money-making plan was the dwarves with their mining.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Socialism isn't against private property, fuck, the main tenet of socialism is workers owning the means of productions. And I don't think it's been proven anywhere that co-ops are categorically less efficient than other models of ownership.
Private property goes away in communism, which is the next stage (going by Marx's stages of history) - but it's a result of a superabundant post scarcity society. The idea there is that in a world with no scarcity, you don't need private property because everyone can get everything that they want. It's not that the government takes your property, not to mention communism is free associating stateless utopian society that doesn't even has governments.
Which is why I always say, if you want to bring communism, you should focus less on politics and more on building a star trek replicator.

p.s.
Though to be fair, the US idolize work so much (well, at least idolizing the idea that other people should work) that the transition to a post scarcity economy (which you can argue we're already pretty much there) is going to be really painful to a lot of people.

I've seen you're posts on socialism before. There are different 'socialisms' but it does away with the classical understanding of it [private property].

I understand the concepts of coops and that form of socialism. But I'm speaking of what organized socialism has been historically and what socialist parties have and continue to call for which is state control. We can have debates about your type of socialism but it's never been the predominant form. Yes there have been experiments in it like kibbutzim and coop buisnesses but it tends to work within the confines of market capitalism and is more of an ownership type rather than a radically different form of government as Marx and Engel called for.

In their manifesto (which I know was rather early in the political evolution) they state the abolition of private property and its accumulation in the hands of the state comes before communism.

My major issue with marxist/socialist understanding of politics is their obession with class which they claim overcomes other divisions. I just fundamentally don't see that backed up it seems very much based in the European experience.

 

[Chichikov]

I'm not really sure what kind of economy it even had. All the races kept to themselves, it seems. The only ones that had some sort of money-making plan was the dwarves with their mining.

Dwarfs (yeah, fuck that Tolkien spelling) are republicans, I saw in a game called Dragon Commander.
Ya'll should play it, it's a fantasy RTS where you get to make decisions about unions, minimum wages and universal healthcare.
Also, you're a dragon with a jetpack.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Everybody who writes in to my local paper hates Nancy Pelosi way more than any other Democrat aside from Obama. Why is this?

In addition to what was said by Gotchaye I think there is some sexism there too She's often discribed in stereotypical sexist terms.

She's a powerful woman who doesn't really care too much for following the elder white men.

 

[theprodigy]

It's not really that crazy to say the Republicans will win the senate. Remember that this class of senators simply have more vulnerable Democrats than Republicans up for election. If the nation simply goes 50/50 this election, Democrats could easily lose the senate.

It's basically the Republican's election to lose. Now we can make predictions and assumptions about how the Republicans will lose it all we want, but I would not make the mistake of dismissing that possibility of a Republican senate this early on.

At least wait until we have solid polling numbers close to election before celebrating anything.

if the nation goes 50/50, Democrats lose 3-4 seats and hold comfortably

Everybody who writes in to my local paper hates Nancy Pelosi way more than any other Democrat aside from Obama. Why is this?

combination of being a former Speaker, being more liberal than Obama, and being a woman
or what Gotchaye said

 

[Oblivion]

https://twitter.com/gehrig38/status/411968192907464704

Did...did Curt Schilling try to insult liberals by posting a comic that doesn't seem to deny conservatives are racist, sexist homophobic, religious fanatics?

 

[Chichikov]

I've seen you're posts on socialism before. There are different 'socialisms' but it does away with the classical understanding of it [private property].

I understand the concepts of coops and that form of socialism. But I'm speaking of what organized socialism has been historically and what socialist parties have and continue to call for which is state control. We can have debates about your type of socialism but it's never been the predominant form. Yes there have been experiments in it like kibbutzim and coop buisnesses but it tends to work within the confines of market capitalism and is more of an ownership type rather than a radically different form of government as Marx and Engel called for.

In their manifesto (which I know was rather early in the political evolution) they state the abolition of private property and its accumulation in the hands of the state comes before communism.

But practically no-ones advocates soviet style Leninism anymore.

Anyway, Marx and Engles didn't exactly speak in a single voice throughout their lives (and remember that the communist manifesto was commissioned). I generally don't think it's all that smart to design your form of government based on some dead 19th century economists/philosophers (and personally I'm much closer to 1st generation socialists).

What I'm saying is that there's a whole lot of smart ideas to come from socialist thinkers, the thing that dear to my heart is the model of ownership, I worked in startups (which are not technically owned by the workforce, but it's pretty close in practice) and I worked in shareholders value maximization fortune 500 companies, and I just think the former model is superior in most cases.

p.s.
The kibbutzim were fucking radical (they're not so much anymore though), I grew up in one and I didn't even own the clothes I wore.
And by the way, they failed in no small amount because they had a rigid flawed understanding of what's important about socialism/communism.

 

[relaxor]

Also Pelosi's from San Francisco.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

But practically no-ones advocates soviet style Leninism anymore.

Anyway, Marx and Engles didn't exactly speak in a single voice throughout their lives (and remember that the communist manifesto was commissioned). I generally don't think it's all that smart to design your form of government based on some dead 19th century economists/philosophers (and personally I'm much closer to 1st generation socialists).

What I'm saying is that there's a whole lot of smart ideas to come from socialist thinkers, the thing that dear to my heart is the model of ownership, I worked in startups (which are not technically owned by the workforce, but it's pretty close in practice) and I worked in shareholders value maximization fortune 500 companies, and I just think the former model is superior in most cases.

p.s.
The kibbutzim were fucking radical (they're not so much anymore though), I grew up in one and I didn't even own the clothes I wore.
And by the way, they failed in no small amount because they had a rigid flawed understanding of what's important about socialism/communism.

I still hear general calls for nationalization, expropriation, state run programs from self avowed socialists and the parties.

Coops can be great and I think I posted about this a few weeks ago about workers having a bigger say in the direction of their company.

But as I said before I think by and large they work within capitalism as an alternative to private ownership and dont work on a larger scale or as the predominant form of ownership with out it starting to act like a for profit publicly trade corporation (problem of the former) or expropriation (problem with the later).

 

[Lafiel]

p.s.
Though to be fair, the US idolize work so much (well, at least idolizing the idea that other people should work) that the transition to a post scarcity economy (which you can argue we're already pretty much there) is going to be really painful to a lot of people.

Ideally a model society we should strive for is one where people aren't forced to work but work because they want to, but it's weird how terrifying that idea is to some people, I frequently talk to my parents about those kind of future societies (because it fascinates me) and I always get the "Oh you just don't want to work" response.. which is ironic considering I'm studying to become a school teacher.;p

Anyway, Marx and Engles didn't exactly speak in a single voice throughout their lives (and remember that the communist manifesto was commissioned). I generally don't think it's all that smart to design your form of government based on some dead 19th century economists/philosophers (and personally I'm much closer to 1st generation socialists).

Not like Marx and Engels gave us a complete blue-print on how we'd make such a society though apart from the workers uniting for a revolution hence the reason why so many different branches of socialism exist such as troksyism, marx-lennism etc. Or even reformist ideas on how to make a transition from capitalism to socialism which mainly came about because marx-lennism failed.

 

[B-Dubs]

https://twitter.com/gehrig38/status/411968192907464704

Did...did Curt Schilling try to insult liberals by posting a comic that doesn't seem to deny conservatives are racist, sexist homophobic, religious fanatics?

No one ever said he was smart

 

[Joe Molotov]

No one ever said he was smart

As evidenced by the fact that he's still pimping the Amalur "franchise" as his twitter background.

 

[Oblivion]

As evidenced by the fact that he's still pimping the Amalur "franchise" as his twitter background.

Was just about to mention that, lol.

 

[Chichikov]

I still hear general calls for nationalization, expropriation, state run programs from self avowed socialists and the parties.

That doesn't make it an integral part of socilism. And to go a bit off topic, I think it's not that useful to talk about nationalization (or privatization for that matter) in such broad terms, I think most people would agree that in the current state of things, certains things works better under government control and certain things work better under private one, the question is only really useful when you talk about nationalization of a specific thing.

Coops can be great and I think I posted about this a few weeks ago about workers having a bigger say in the direction of their company.

But as I said before I think by and large they work within capitalism as an alternative to private ownership and dont work on a larger scale or as the predominant form of ownership with out it starting to act like a for profit publicly trade corporation (problem of the former) or expropriation (problem with the later).

It depends on what you mean by captilism, I believe that markets are very strong and useful tool that we should continue to utilize (at least until we get into a real post scarcity world, but maybe even after it, it's hard to guess how society will look then), but at the same time, I think that worker ownership directly compete with ownership by the owners of capital.

Ideally a model society we should strive for is one where people aren't forced to work but work because they want to, but it's weird how terrifying that idea is to some people, I frequently talk to my parents about those kind of future societies (because it fascinates me) and I always get the "Oh you just don't want to work" response.. which is ironic considering I'm studying to become a school teacher.;p

What I always find funny is that most people aspire to have enough wealth to not have to work, but they feel like you have to "earn" it with pain and sweat, either by them or their parents. Moralizing of hard work as something as an ideal to aspire to is one of the most useful tricks rich people pulled over the working class.
And good on you of being teacher, is a very worthy calling.

 

[zero shift]

And my favorite "Our purchasing power today is the same as it was in the 60s."

As if that's suppose to be a complement.

They also forget the giant elephant in the room. People in other first world countries have a much better social welfare system than ours.

*sigh* Minimum Wage thread.

No wonder the GOP has half the country following them despite their batshit fucking insane policies. Most people actually buy into voting against their own interest.

The thread made me wonder why we can't just enact price controls to force businesses to not raise their prices? Inflation?

 

[rocketknight]

She was the Speaker of the House for a while; she's the Democrat who's wielded the most power, other than Obama. And she's more liberal than Obama and has demonstrated an ability to get things passed. The only other candidate here is going to be Reid, who's got more influence right now but who isn't as influential as Pelosi used to be (the House gives Speakers a whole lot of power; Senate Majority Leaders are much more constrained), and who has backed down in fights with Republicans on several occasions. Republicans in general have an interest in not rehabilitating her now that she's less influential because there's a very good chance that she will be Speaker again at some point. Probably it helps that Pelosi is a woman.

Yeah, I mean, I know who she is, I was more just marveling that she continues to be the number one bogeyman in op-eds and anti-Landrieu super PAC ads.

LOTR had shitty economics?

O_O!

Did I miss something?

Everybody but the hobbits engage in massive deficit spending (to fund armies to fight orcs)! Middle Earth never developed Austrian economics so there's a chicken in every pot.

 

[Diablos]

No one ever said he was smart

Just look at his stellar game development record *snicker*

 

[Oblivion]

Hope other teabaggers take note:

It seems like things may have reached a whole new level of crazy in Utah.

Trestin Meacham, a 35-year-old Utah man, is allegedly refusing to eat anything until the state nullifies its recent decision to allow same-sex couples to get married.

At the time the above video was released, Meacham had reportedly gone 12 days without food — surviving only on water and an occasional vitamin — and has lost 25 pounds.

“I cannot stand by and do nothing while this evil takes root in my home,” the 35-year-old reportedly wrote on his blog. “Some things in life are worth sacrificing one’s health and even life if necessary. I am but a man, and do not have the money and power to make any noticeable influence in our corrupt system. Nevertheless, I can do something that people in power cannot ignore.”

Meacham claims he will fast until Utah decides to nullify the court’s decision — nullification being a theory that the states have authority in all matters, not the federal government. It is a theory that has reportedly been used previously in an attempt to prevent integration in the public school system in the 1950s.

The more the merrier, I say.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Okay, it's a ways into 2014. New thread title or new thread?

 

[Oblivion]

Okay, it's a ways into 2014. New thread title or new thread?

New thread, definitely. This one's over 200 pages and worn out already.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Hope other teabaggers take note:

The more the merrier, I say.

The Salt Beach Diet. No food until gay marriage is outlawed; you must sustain yourself on bitter tears. Guaranteed to lose a lot of weight!

 

[GhaleonEB]

New thread, definitely. This one's over 200 pages and worn out already.

Someone wanna actually make one this time? Or we gotta pluck another "volunteer".