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PoliGAF 2013 |OT3| 1,000 Years of Darkness and Nuclear Fallout
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CoffeeJanitor
Member
The shitty implementation and shitty results are getting me down. I hope the law still helps a lot of people...
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Yeah, Krauthammer on Fox News is just as lousy as anyone else, he just does it in a dead-pan way that makes him seem respectable (it's because his face is melting off his skull so far as I can tell so he can't display emotions).
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Too close to call until you unskew the polls, and then Cuntinelli is winning by a margin of 79%
ridethepiggy
Banned
Why aren't you freaking out Diablos?!? It's a close race! Ken is probably going to win and then the Dems will lose Virginia once and for all!!!
JesseEwiak
Member
Krauthammer worked for The New Republic, during the Andrew Sullivan years, aka. "we're an obstinably liberal magazine that employs no actual liberals" years, so he understands how to try to appeal to people to the left of Genghis Khan.
Wasn't the national health insurance plan like the very first concession they made? It's sick how quickly they folded on that. But I guess it was necessary to get big insurance on board.
ridethepiggy
Banned
They folded because Leiberman and Baucus weren't going to support a public option.
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
This argument is independent of the constitutional challenges to the law. It would have been available even without the holdings in NFIB v. Sebelius.
speculawyer
Member
Meh. He knows the audience and thus changed his rhetoric for the Daily Show viewers.
But he is an old guy that remembers what the reasonable GOPers were like . . . he was a big critic of the shut-down and called them the 'suicide caucas'.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Ignoring that farce from Wenzel (whose predicative value is far less than proven), here's two House polls from PPP:
The national gerrymander works as well as it does for the GOP not just because they're able to shore up their more conservative members, but also "moderates" like Kline, Southerland, Jim Gerlach etc. who sit in tossup or Dem-favored districts but have been around for a while and are able to keep up appearances. The shutdown fight has exposed them, big time.
I think the shutdown's most damaging effect is that many Republicans who have been able to keep up a "moderate" image have called attention to how extremist their voting records really are. It's always been so weird to me as a Minnesotan how Bachmann gets all the attention when Kline and Paulsen vote in lockstep every time. (I don't count a reluctant vote to open the government back up for brownie points, either)PPP said:
The national gerrymander works as well as it does for the GOP not just because they're able to shore up their more conservative members, but also "moderates" like Kline, Southerland, Jim Gerlach etc. who sit in tossup or Dem-favored districts but have been around for a while and are able to keep up appearances. The shutdown fight has exposed them, big time.
speculawyer
Member
And even if a Rep is a 'moderate', people realize that the GOP party has gone extreme and so your local moderate will be effectively supporting the extreme party.
shadowsdarknes
Member
Perhaps.
Maybe I was just refreshed to see a conservative forced to be tame in front a moderate-liberal audience.
As much as I disagree with the arguments of conservatives and feel confident making conclusions based on the facts, we are far more capable of having a productive dialogue when we aren't shouting out hollow talking points that are designed to fire up a political base.
Krauthamer also said, "Ted Cruz is not our Republican Party Spokesperson" which was good to hear.
The old Diablos shutdown with the government. Except he never opened back up.
RustyNails
Member
Actually the new diablos is going to expire with the continuing resolution in february and would need a new one.
Aaron Strife
Banned
I hope Erik Paulsen gets a decent challenger. Such a smug ass, every time I see him.
Black Mamba
Member
I hear he needs 5 million lines of code change to be operational by then. Good luck.
Yeah, then he said it was Paul Ryan, lol.
Black Mamba
Member
CMS is claiming 700k insurance applications in all exchanges so far. That's a huge number not even 1 month in. I mean, isn't that 10% of the goal and 75% of the population has barely had access online!
AnotherNils
Member
I dunno. I feel like most people will rush in at the beginning when its getting all the media coverage, then there'll be a big lull and then maybe a second push as the deadline comes up and the media covers it again.
But given all the problems, maybe thats pretty good.
PhoenixDark
Banned
They'll never stop falling for this shit because the point is to misinform people. Yesterday Cooch was on Red State begging for money, and a few days ago Santorum set up a "strike force" group to help the campaign's ground game. It's no coincidence that this poll was released today: it's meant to maximize donations in the final weeks of the campaign. Which will be used to pay off any debt the campaign is in, and line the pockets of PACs.
The far right is little more than a money scam at this point. And in four years we'll see a rerun of the same anti-poll science talking points, the ones Fox and others admitted were correct after the election.
"Hillary is not getting 97% of the black vote, that's in line with what Obama - the black candidate - received in 2012."
"This poll called 9% more democrats than republicans, there's no way that is accurate for this election. Hillary's favorables are lower than Obama's were in 2008."
Black Mamba
Member
You're probably right but those numbers are probably just the state exchanges so I think it's really good even for an opening rush.
What if the websites had no problems? We might be at 3 mil already.
Black Mamba
Member
I'm sure the people in Washington will listen.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Is that applied for insurance or just filled out the registration application on the site?
Whoever pushed for the decision to force people to register before they can see/compare insurance plans should be removed. That was an absolute shocker of a decision.
I don't know how they blew the roll out of the most important accomplishment Obama has, this should have had everybody's focus all of this year.
Also, they awarded no bid contracts? That's fucked up.
cooljeanius
Member
Yeah they'll listen to the second one, and then think it sounds like a big number because they'll fail to take it into context with the first one.
StopMakingSense
Member
The expectations for the first month of early enrollment were pretty low. I know CA was expecting very low numbers at first, considering when the plans would actually start.
RustyNails
Member
Why dont we lower medeicare age? That would mean people retire sooner so new jobseekers have better prospects, which in turn means companies can replace workers with lesser pay (new hires). It also helps the labor market. Both businesses and labor win. Whats the hold up?
Black Mamba
Member
Lower the medicare age to 0, IMO. Put everyone into it.
I don't feel that the Republican party has gotten worse at messaging.
There are two components to good argumentation: framing/messaging is one component, but the actual virtue of the argument itself is another, with the former being more important for popular approval. I don't think the Republican party has gotten worse at messaging and framing, I think the virtue of their arguments has gotten worse. As arguments become increasingly extreme, it becomes increasingly difficult to gussy those arguments up. Not impossible, mind you, but harder, and a skilled debater could perform even better if given a solid premise to work with in the first place.
There are two components to good argumentation: framing/messaging is one component, but the actual virtue of the argument itself is another, with the former being more important for popular approval. I don't think the Republican party has gotten worse at messaging and framing, I think the virtue of their arguments has gotten worse. As arguments become increasingly extreme, it becomes increasingly difficult to gussy those arguments up. Not impossible, mind you, but harder, and a skilled debater could perform even better if given a solid premise to work with in the first place.
PhoenixDark
Banned
You're right of course, but I can already imagine the CBO score of that being bad - and thus being waved around by republicans and network media hosts.
Personally I want everyone to have access to Medicare, but lowering it to 60 would be great.
Question: if it was lowered to 60, would you support means testing for 60 year olds who decided to work for five more years before retiring? After they retire, their benefits would increase back to the normal level of course.
Black Mamba
Member
Come on, Dems. Don't fuck this up. If I were a strategist for em, I would be arguing against GOP governance in general. What significant bill has been passed with a majority of House GOPers in the past 4 years? Zero. All of them had help from Dems and a minority of Republicans (VAWA, Fiscal Cliff, Gov't shutdown, etc).
I'm make the idea about "If you want Washington to work, you need to vote out the party that isn't doing work."
Come on, Dems. Don't fuck this up. If I were a strategist for em, I would be arguing against GOP governance in general. What significant bill has been passed with a majority of House GOPers in the past 4 years? Zero. All of them had help from Dems and a minority of Republicans (VAWA, Fiscal Cliff, Gov't shutdown, etc).
I'm make the idea about "If you want Washington to work, you need to vote out the party that isn't doing work."
Yet you fail to forget that the GOP has a well oiled machine that has been working overtime to instill FUD about the healthcare law and to quickly place the blame on the Democrats and Obama for everything.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Republican messaging has largely remained the same since Nixon's "law and order" campaign of 1968. The issue isn't that it is less persuasive or extreme today, it's that there are fewer white people for it to be persuasive to.
http://www.rightwingnews.com/john-hawkins/the-20-most-annoying-liberals-of-2012-10th-annual/
this list fucking slayed me. preview:
this list fucking slayed me. preview:
Written By : John Hawkins
January 3, 2013
Is it theoretically possible to just backdoor single payer back lowering Medicare age to 18 or something like that?
Always thought it was silly to raise it when lowering would work better since it'd give it more buying power.
I'd prefer an actual system constructed for single payer, mind, but I always wondered if Medicare's reach is determined solely by Congress's age limit on it.
Hahaha Meghan McCain is on his list of most annoying liberals.
makingmusic476
Member
The strongest rallying cry for single payer has been "Medicare for All" for years. Look up H.R. 676. It just removes the age limit for Medicare, while also nixing copays and lowering the deductible.
thezerofire
Banned
wow this whole thing is a classic. it's unbelievable
Black Mamba
Member
Harry Reid, The People's Champion.
lmao, no one likes Ted Cruz
JesseEwiak
Member
"Harry Reid, The People's Champion"
Person who actually grew up poor (especially by politician standards) defending programs that help the poor. Shocker!
Reid's actually been underrated for a while on defending earned benefit programs and other non-discretionary spending that helps the poor. Unlike other Senator's in purple or red states, he's never been much of a deficit or entitlement cut fetish.
Obama has been a good President domestically, but I think part of his fetish of offering Medicare and Social Security cuts is that he did grow up pretty priveliged. Not Romney-level, but still top 10-20%.
Person who actually grew up poor (especially by politician standards) defending programs that help the poor. Shocker!
Reid's actually been underrated for a while on defending earned benefit programs and other non-discretionary spending that helps the poor. Unlike other Senator's in purple or red states, he's never been much of a deficit or entitlement cut fetish.
Obama has been a good President domestically, but I think part of his fetish of offering Medicare and Social Security cuts is that he did grow up pretty priveliged. Not Romney-level, but still top 10-20%.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
This is how single payer will work in the US.
We already have the system it just unfairly keeps out young people.
The problem being the popular conception of medicare is those people have 'paid into' the system. They think all their medicare taxes are now being used on them. Instead of their taxes having been used long ago and the current generation now paying for them. Its the conceptual problem I had a hard time convincing my grandparents of. They feel young people haven't earned it
There is actually a very telling line in one of his book where he admits as much. Something about poverty merely being an abstraction to him due to his background.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Speaking of ted cruz I thought this was funny, he's on his wife's health care plan which he claims isn't costing the tax payers anything, turns out that's not really true.
I grew up relatively privileged but I have a strong aversion to cuts in the safety net. I don't know what caused it. But its really strong. It just feels immoral to me.
JesseEwiak
Member
Medicare's going to come in stages - first, the 55 to 65 to help those in that gap for many between their career and Medicare. Then, probably an extension to any family with children under xxx% of poverty. The sweet spot of middle aged people with careers will probably be last since those people have insurance and are the best deals for insurance companies - a lot of premiums going in, not a lot going out in claims.
speculawyer
Member
You know . . . the GOP's push for more and more corporate and donor money has completely backfired on them. Well, at least under the Citizen's United style system where unlimited money can go to private organizations. What appears to have happened is that zealot billionaires have created a bunch of different outside groups that all squabble with each other and fund extreme crazies. Freedomworks, Americans for Prosperity, Club for Growth, Madison Project, Crossroads, Heritage Action, etc. . . All sorts of crazies that are not under any unified control.
Candidates can get funded from these outside groups and then largely ignore what the party wants them to do since they are beholden to that outside group more than the party. Why do what Boehner wants you to do when Club for Growth (AKA Club for tax cuts to rich people) is footing the bill for your campaign?
The GOP is just not viable national party right now . . . they really have become more of a regional party.
Candidates can get funded from these outside groups and then largely ignore what the party wants them to do since they are beholden to that outside group more than the party. Why do what Boehner wants you to do when Club for Growth (AKA Club for tax cuts to rich people) is footing the bill for your campaign?
The GOP is just not viable national party right now . . . they really have become more of a regional party.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Makes sense and it will be an easier sell once Obamacare is up and running. Better to offload those 55 year olds to medicare where they'll lower claims in the exchanges and but not be as sick and in need of medical care as 65+
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