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PoliGAF 2013 |OT3| 1,000 Years of Darkness and Nuclear Fallout

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PD has yet to explain this.

Come on, how was he supposed to know a Republican would have to get dragged into signing a Medicaid expansion, sign a anti-abortion law, do some shady shit with spending, install an Emergency Manager in Detroit, sign a right-to-work law and generally...act like a Republican.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Stuff like this is really starting to annoy me.

So ive seen numerous articles similar to this all over the internet whether it be right wing crap or even cnn. I know this is yahoo but the article deliberately misleads people. He talks about the fine print of his "Silver" plan when in actuality he is listing off the benefits of the bronze plan. Gives a bunch of vague crap about his premiums increasing and misleading benefits and conveniently doesn't talk about the out of pocket max since its probably 10 grand lower than what he has now.

I hear you. Even given that their claims for both much more expensive premiums and copays are true, they never go into what their costs would have been if they got badly injured or sick and needed surgery and a stay in the hospital.
 
Stuff like this is really starting to annoy me.



So ive seen numerous articles similar to this all over the internet whether it be right wing crap or even cnn. I know this is yahoo but the article deliberately misleads people. He talks about the fine print of his "Silver" plan when in actuality he is listing off the benefits of the bronze plan. Gives a bunch of vague crap about his premiums increasing and misleading benefits and conveniently doesn't talk about the out of pocket max since its probably 10 grand lower than what he has now.

Yeah, this disingenuous presentation is just being purposefully misleading. Unfortunately I expect it from commentary these days (and even from those trying to make believe they're journalists).

For the record, my employer based insurance improved coverage and is decreasing in price for 2014 compared to 2013, so...hurray for arguing with anecdotes.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Chalk it down to youthful indiscretion and a desire to rebel against one's parents!

PD has explained on a number of occasions that it was due to disappoint with Granholm's performance and being suckered in by the moderate messaging of Snyder during the campaign

Oh sorry, I meant he didn't explain why he hated Granholm so much.

I mean, no matter how horrible she might have been, being reduced to voting for a teabagger? Really?
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
That's why you always answer that question with the same cliche every politician uses. "Vote your conscious first, constituency second, party third" with a little pepper thrown in to make sure voters see your conscious as basically the same as your constituency anyway.

If you really must go down the route of putting the constituency first, the answer to "what if your constituency wants (insert horrible thing here)" should be about your faith in your constituency for that to never happen, not to say "yep even then".

This is also a reminder to how low the requirements are for state lawmakers to get elected.
 
That's not what he said. Don't do that.
"If that's what they wanted, I'd have to hold my nose … they'd probably have to hold a gun to my head, but yeah," Wheeler said in the video, which was taken down from YouTube.
?
What happened to a simple "no"?
Terry Mcauliffe is going to win by not being a GOPer. That is good and bad. He better not be sleazebag.
Something about him rubs me the wrong way. He probably does not tweet obscene pics to mistresses or anything, but I'm thinking a financial scam in his history or something like that.
 

Konka

Banned
Just had a death panel call me. I have to give up my kidneys, lungs and heart to congress members. They'll let me go free after the surgery.
 
Oh sorry, I meant he didn't explain why he hated Granholm so much.

I mean, no matter how horrible she might have been, being reduced to voting for a teabagger? Really?

Snyder didn't run as a teabagger.

And yes, Granholm was a horrible governor. You'd be hard pressed to find someone from Michigan who disagrees with that.
 

Piecake

Member
Thank god the House of Representatives is looking after the little guy's interests

The U.S House voted to delay a Labor Department effort to expand investor protections for more than $13 trillion worth of private retirement accounts, including 401(k)s and IRAs.

Both agencies have been working on regulations to require more investment professionals to provide advice that is in their clients’ best interests, meeting a standard known as fiduciary duty. The Labor Department proposal would expand that standard to more providers of retirement accounts while the SEC rule would apply to sales of securities. The Labor Department planned to issue its proposal before the end of the year.

“This is an anti-fiduciary bill, not just an anti-DOL bill,” Barbara Roper, director of investor protection for the Consumer Federation of America, said in an interview before the vote.

Thank god Wall Street can continue to ignore the best interests of the customers that it services and pursue profit unabated.

Participants with 401(k) accounts may not understand that the person educating them about their investments may have a financial stake in the choices they make, a 2011 U.S. Government Accountability Office report said. Such conflicts of interest could lead 401(k) participants who change jobs to move money to IRAs, which may have higher fees, the GAO said.

Because they are not subject to the fiduciary standard, financial services firms that administer 401(k) plans for employers may recommend funds in which they have a financial interest rather than products better suited to the investor, the report said.

Thank god republic and democrats alike were able to come together and delay these terrible regulations.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...ay-rules-on-retirement-investment-advice.html
 
What this all really is is a demonstration of how dumb and schizophrenic the electorate is.

Vitually NO good healthcare plan could have actually been passed. Single payer was out. Even a public option and a federal exchange were too "rich" for the Reagan blood fueling so much of America. So we passed a plan that relies on inefficient, less competitive state-level exchanges, which was inevitably going to lead to higher premiums for some (though it seems to me that insurance companies must at least partially be doing this because, well, they can, not because they have to, as the influx of healthy young folk should offset the addition of people with preexisting conditions), as well as some plans inevitably being terminated due to minimum coverage laws rendering them obsolete. But of course Obama could not openly admit that, for he'd have been crucified by the "government is taking over!" crowd, so he says "you can keep your plan" with the implied caveat that, of course, the insurance company and/or your employer have to continue to offer said plan. All this, combined with an inefficient rollout (that seems at least partially caused by lack of regulation in the health insurance industry making healthcare IT a true nightmare without any kind of set electronic standard), seems to confirm that "government can't do anything right!", when of course it was the electorate that tied the government's hands behind its back and told it to do a cartwheel (and to do it with a smile, goddamn it!).

America's values are just fucked up, on so many things. Abortions are important for the government to control, but the efficient and fair doling out of healthcare is something best left to the private sector that produced Enron employees laughing about wildfires. Jesus, I need to ly dow

Edit: and is it REALLY surprising that a pretty massive shift in our healthcare system might be plagued with problems, at first? That we're complaining something complicated does not work right away makes us look like a nation of petulant toddlers. I'm mad that the web site isn't working, but premiums are rising because we're shifting healthcare costs (like ER visits by uninsured folks) AWAY from the government and putting it back on the private sector.

ALSO, your premiums would have gone up anyway! Granted, some companies are instituting fees for policies covering a partner whose job could offer health insurance, but they don't really have to, do they? I'm not 100% knowledgeable of the law, but that would be kind of a silly requirement, no? That seems more like another example of insurance companies doing something "because they can", rather than because they need to, or should.
 

Chichikov

Member
What this all really is is a demonstration of how dumb and schizophrenic the electorate is.

Vitually NO good healthcare plan could have actually been passed. Single payer was out. Even a public option and a federal exchange were too "rich" for the Reagan blood fueling so much of America. So we passed a plan that relies on inefficient, less competitive state-level exchanges, which was inevitably going to lead to higher premiums for some (though it seems to me that insurance companies must at least partially be doing this because, well, they can, not because they have to, as the influx of healthy young folk should offset the addition of people with preexisting conditions), as well as some plans inevitably being terminated due to minimum coverage laws rendering them obsolete. But of course Obama could not openly admit that, for he'd have been crucified by the "government is taking over!" crowd, so he says "you can keep your plan" with the implied caveat that, of course, the insurance company and/or your employer have to continue to offer said plan. All this, combined with an inefficient rollout (that seems at least partially caused by lack of regulation in the health insurance industry making healthcare IT a true nightmare without any kind of set electronic standard), seems to confirm that "government can't do anything right!", when of course it was the electorate that tied the government's hands behind its back and told it to do a cartwheel (and to do it with a smile, goddamn it!).

America's values are just fucked up, on so many things. Abortions are important for the government to control, but the efficient and fair doling out of healthcare is something best left to the private sector that produced Enron employees laughing about wildfires. Jesus, I need to ly dow
The public supported the public option and I'm pretty confident a Medicare for all plan would've been easy to sell to the public.
This was not about the electorate, this was about politicians who were afraid to piss insurance companies.
Also Lieberman, fucking Joe Lieberman.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Somebody should make a film with mechaMcCain as the enemy.

They can rebuild him, they have the technology. Faster, stronger, probably not better.

The public supported the public option and I'm pretty confident a Medicare for all plan would've been easy to sell to the public.
This was not about the electorate, this was about politicians who were afraid to piss insurance companies.
Also Lieberman, fucking Joe Lieberman.

Yep. Joe fucking Lieberman.
 

Konka

Banned
They can rebuild him, they have the technology. Faster, stronger, probably not better.



Yep. Joe fucking Lieberman.

mccain.jpg
 
Yep. The death of Public Option was Joe Lieberman. I dont understand why when Democrats were going with a simple majority vote on ACA, they did'nt tack Public Option to the bill. It's not like we needed blue dogs and Lieberman for that.
 
The public supported the public option and I'm pretty confident a Medicare for all plan would've been easy to sell to the public.
This was not about the electorate, this was about politicians who were afraid to piss insurance companies.
Also Lieberman, fucking Joe Lieberman.

Yes, but the public are the ones who elect such politicians and refuse to organize for, if not an outright overhaul of campaign finance and lobbying, then at least a transparency that would allow it to be more transparent and able to be stigmatized.

Lieberman's an asshole, but such open corruption and incompetence is allowed by the electorate and is, in some sense, a reflection (even if moderately distorted) of its real values, when the surface trappings are pared away. "Politicians" are an easy target, but they're also an easy way for the electorate to deflect attention away from their own shortcomings and blind spots. They may be "for" the public option, but they're MORE for not rocking the boat, when a change of zeitgeist is just what is needed for anything substantive to be done to fix this country.
 

Konka

Banned
Yep. The death of Public Option was Joe Lieberman. I dont understand why when Democrats were going with a simple majority vote on ACA, they did'nt tack Public Option to the bill. It's not like we needed blue dogs and Lieberman for that.

Yeah is there a reason they didn't use Reconciliation for the Public Option?
 
I think you're going about this in a kind of oblivious manner. My wife and I make about as much as that couple that you mentioned. And if someone came up and said to us "You're going to have to extract 200 more a month to take care of something you don't want" I'd be irritated. Now, granted, most likely their actual insurance was shit. But still. I can understand being irritated that you have to spend more money that you feel you shouldn't have to.

Now, my wife and I deal with finances differently than a lot of couples I think, and with that said, I have spent the better part of the last few years helping out my mother financially. We are paycheck to paycheck between student loans, car payments, mortgage, my son's school, and cancer care for my mother. On paper, 80k seems like a lot of money, but after handling everything we have to, and after taxes, we're pay check to paycheck unfortunately. If we didn't have the added expense of my mother then we'd be okay, and that increase wouldn't phase us.

Point being, I can understand how a family could see an increase as an annoyance, and then be turned against the ACA because they weren't informed on how shitty their policy actually was. A lot of people aren't going to care that their insurance is better, they care about the bottom line. And that's the biggest uphill battle the ACA has, I think. There are tons of people who have shit insurance and don't realize it. And they're going to be enveloped by the rhetoric because, to them, it's a rate increase. DOesn't make it right, but I can understand.

This attitude of "Oh, well, I won't shed a tear over them, they'll find the money!" is a really shitty attitude to have because it ignores that there is a problem. One that isn't simple to solve either. But it's there. As Phoenix said, this law pretty much creates a donut hole, and if we had a functioning congress people would work to fix it. But instead we have a congress comprised of people who want the ACA to work and people who want it to be a scandal. Because of that the donut hole will likely go unplugged, people will be hurt because of it and the republicans will hold that up and scream "SEE?! GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WORK!"
I don't think I'm going about it in an oblivious manner. I completely understand their feelings. And I still just think its not the most pressing problem with the law and don't think its something horrible or a radical problem we should be freaking out about. 80,000 dollars is not struggling by any objective means (its double the poverty level for a family of 8 people and 5 times that of a couple). And 3.5% of their income shouldn't break the bank. I'm just more concerned with the couple that makes 30,000 and is sick. We need to stop making policy only to fit the top half of society.

The law helps millions more than it 'hurts'. And most of the stories I haven't seen much real and true pain but rather more well off people complaining that they're being taxed a bit more to help more disadvantaged folk. We'd face this problem with any reform. They don't want to give money to those less off. We see the same response to food stamps, welfare, tax increase, medicare, medicaid, or any government spending.

The problem is the media is biased towards the upper middle classes 'problems.' We've collectively decided to completely ignore the poor and underclass. I was reading about CBS characterizing that most of the people in Washington who have gotten insurance on medicaid as a problem with the law. Because its so horrible people get insurance from the government? Medicaid expansion is a problem because they're not helping the private sector make profits. This entire rate shock is the media's inclination towards reporting not news but political 'winners and losers'. They found a simple story to report, One of obama's statements was not technically true, lets just ignore the intent of the statement (reassuring the vast majority of american's they weren't going to lose employer insurance) and pretend like it was said out of context.

On that note this mockery of politico is amazing: civil war playbook email

Edit: to clarify. I understand people don't like these policies, they will pay more. But we already do this all the time when we raise taxes. I think these stories should be brought to the public. Its a problem but its just not the totality of the law. I just wish more people would be broadcasting the millions who are being helped.
 
Where are the media stories about the uninsurable diabetic who just signed up for insurance?

Where are the media stories about the 28 year old working part time and struggling getting nearly free subsidized insurance?

Where are the media stories about the single mom with 3 kids working 2 jobs and getting her and her family on medicaid?


The media is focusing only on the negative and it's fucking bullshit. And half the negative they do gets it wrong in the first place.

Because by finding a simplistic contradiction they can be seen as 'holding the administration accountable' and 'challenging the powers that be'. "We're the Fourth estate, we're not Obama's lackeys, we promise!" Also, America doesn't have suffering and struggling people that these groups can sell ads to.

They probably figured it might not survive the eventual court challenge.
The public option is very clearly constitutional. Its less controversial than the mandate.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Snyder didn't run as a teabagger.

And yes, Granholm was a horrible governor. You'd be hard pressed to find someone from Michigan who disagrees with that.

Not good enough.

No seriously, give me something concrete here. In all the years that I've followed followed politics, I cannot think of any situation where I would think that picking a fucking Republican (let alone one of the teabagger persuasion) would constitute the lesser of two evils. Maybe, MAYBE Jon Corzine?

Really, I'm quite fascinated by this. Have you been secretly pro-life all this time? :O
 
Snyder didn't run as a teabagger.

And yes, Granholm was a horrible governor. You'd be hard pressed to find someone from Michigan who disagrees with that.

I will just say that it is one thing not to vote for a Democrat (living in Texas, I have the luxury of doing it frequently--I can happily say I did not vote for Obama twice). It's another thing to vote for a Republican. I don't say that as somebody who disagrees at all with your criticisms of Obama, at least generally speaking, but just as somebody who sees voting Republican--including "moderates"--as maximally harmful to the interests of any and all living human beings.

We need to stop making policy only to fit the top half society.

This is one of the most important things ever said in a PoliGAF thread. Not kidding. I think a lot of people don't realize just how little attention we pay to a full half of the US population. The bottom half of the American population has probably never in its history been more politically weak than at present day.
 
Not good enough.

No seriously, give me something concrete here. In all the years that I've followed followed politics, I cannot think of any situation where I would think that picking a fucking Republican (let alone one of the teabagger persuasion) would constitute the lesser of two evils. Maybe, MAYBE Jon Corzine?

Really, I'm quite fascinated by this. Have you been secretly pro-life all this time? :O

I was intrigued by Snyder's economic platform including his pledge to eliminate the Michigan business tax, and didn't like Virg Bernero who wasn't a particularly good mayor. He was more of the same, and I didn't believe Michigan needed that at the time - and I still don't, to be honest. Snyder never struck me as a social ideologue during the campaign, and after the SC Obamacare decision I was sure he would expand Medicaid, which he ultimately did while fighting his party.

At the end of the day this state was probably going to be fucked no matter who became governor in 2010. What I didn't expect was for republicans to sweep virtually every important elected seat in the state, thus giving Snyder free reign to do whatever he wanted. And to be fair, it could have been a lot worse but he has rejected some of the extremism.

I also didn't expect him to starve Detroit of tax revenue and ultimately moving the state closer to bankruptcy; I'm not sure I've heard of another state doing what he has done on that front.
 

Aylinato

Member
I was intrigued by Snyder's economic platform including his pledge to eliminate the Michigan business tax, and didn't like Virg Bernero who wasn't a particularly good mayor. He was more of the same, and I didn't believe Michigan needed that at the time - and I still don't, to be honest. Snyder never struck me as a social ideologue during the campaign, and after the SC Obamacare decision I was sure he would expand Medicaid, which he ultimately did while fighting his party.

At the end of the day this state was probably going to be fucked no matter who became governor in 2010. What I didn't expect was for republicans to sweep virtually every important elected seat in the state, thus giving Snyder free reign to do whatever he wanted. And to be fair, it could have been a lot worse but he has rejected some of the extremism.

I also didn't expect him to starve Detroit of tax revenue and ultimately moving the state closer to bankruptcy; I'm not sure I've heard of another state doing what he has done on that front.


Yea, I was in class today and we were going over the future well-being of our Michigan.


Looks like 30 year recession at current rate.


Business tax cut was ok, didn't help, didn't hurt.

Our state has a structural deficit, and unless we have 9 million people decide to move to our state in the next year we are in bad shape.


Also, he only rejected "some" (if you can even call going along with everything but one or two bills) bills, and only, after bad events happened in other states, like the Sandy Hook shooting.



BTW, you got fooled by a teabagger. ha.



O, and the transportation bill that's supposed to re-do all our roads? Dead. Dead as dead could be dead if dead could be more dead then dead. Dead. Thanks to Synder.
 
Exactly. The state is long term fucked more likely than not, why not go all out throwing shit at the wall seeing what might work.

"go all out throwing shit at the wall" is not the same as "go all out crippling the ability of the state to actually govern and the ability of the lower socioeconomic half of the country to live with even a modicum of comfort"
 
Yep. The death of Public Option was Joe Lieberman. I dont understand why when Democrats were going with a simple majority vote on ACA, they did'nt tack Public Option to the bill. It's not like we needed blue dogs and Lieberman for that.
Tom Dashcle confirmed the public option was taken off the table just to get the insurance companies to the table. It never had a chance of being in the bill. I'm sure someone will point out Dashcle retracted his claim later but it's pretty obvious what happened.
http://www.salon.com/2010/10/05/public_option_24/

Same reason why the bill doesn't allow the government to negotiate drug prices, or allow people to purchase prescription drugs from Canada.
 
It's pretty damning for our political system that insurance companies even needed to be "at the table" to begin with, and it's a travesty that a widely-popular provision--that is also a great policy--had to axed for that to happen. Corporations aren't just people nowadays, they are actually more important than people.
 
Tom Dashcle confirmed the public option was taken off the table just to get the insurance companies to the table. It never had a chance of being in the bill. I'm sure someone will point out Dashcle retracted his claim later but it's pretty obvious what happened.
http://www.salon.com/2010/10/05/public_option_24/

Same reason why the bill doesn't allow the government to negotiate drug prices, or allow people to purchase prescription drugs from Canada.
Turns out those insurance companies were bluffing. What were they gonna do, pack up and leave? We now have a mandate for everyone to get insurance from these companies, but since they dont like competition they are dropping coverage for some people. Same thing would have happened with PO. Obama was in the middle ground unicorn mode especially during the first half of his first term. And they just hoodwinked him. Having people like Rahm Emmanuel probably didnt help either.
 

xnipx

Member
So today at work they put up a new poster in our HR Policy room showing the minimum wage rates for every state and something just came to my mind.

Since Washington state has a minimum wage of $9.00, do mcdoubles still cost $1? Do they still have dollar stores? Does Walmart still have the cheapest prices for deodorant and toothpaste??

I remember people complaining during the McDonald's strike and in the DC Walmart thread that wage increase lead to higher prices. So I'm just trying to figure it out. Does everything cost more in the northwest like it does in England?
 

Wilsongt

Member
It would be nice during a line of questioning by Repubulicans if they would actually let the the person actually answer the fucking question in full without fucking interrupting because they aren't getting the answer they want. Goddamn these people.
 

Oldschoolgamer

The physical form of blasphemy
It would be nice during a line of questioning by Repubulicans if they would actually let the the person actually answer the fucking question in full without fucking interrupting because they aren't getting the answer they want. Goddamn these people.

Yea, it's fucking annoying and disrespectful.
 
Ohio politics really perplex me.

First of all, kudos to Kasich for expanding Medicaid through whatever means necessary. That took some balls, and I'll give him credit for it.

Meanwhile, the state of Ohio is in the process of rolling out an integrated government benefits website: benefits.ohio.gov. This website will allow Ohio citizens to sign up for and manage their benefits - from Medicaid to WIC to unemployment - from a single website. Great idea. Nice job.

But if our state government was capable of setting up this great, convenient benefits portal, WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T WE SET UP OUR OWN INSURANCE EXCHANGE? Hell, we probably could have integrated it into benefits.ohio.gov.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
“Rate shock”: The GOP’s shameful new Obamacare lie


If you’re a healthcare reform supporter and have found yourself arguing with a conservative about Obamacare this week you’ve probably been confronted with three different but related complaints.

1. Millions of people with individual market healthcare coverage are getting cancellation notices from their insurers.

2. People who got those notices are now experiencing “rate shock.”

3. President Obama thus lied to the public when he claimed, repeatedly, that under Obamacare “if you like your coverage, you can keep it.”

In a way it’s a healthy development for conservatives because for the first time they’re actually reacting to real testimonials from real people, instead of just regurgitating some derp they invented or read on Drudge.

As always, though, the point of the complaints isn’t to address and rectify problems, but rather to deploy them as subterfuge to wreck the entire reform edifice.

We know that because conservatives never weigh the first two complaints against the very clear and obvious good Obamacare promises to do for the uninsured and previously uninsurable. Instead they fuse them into one, and respond to all attempts to clarify the situation by invoking the third complaint. Not everyone’s experiencing rate shock, you say? The law dramatically improves the individual market relative to the pre-Obamacare status quo? Well, you’re just covering for the fact that Obama lied.

Rinse repeat.

I think it’s plausible that Obama will address his past statements so at the very least people can focus on the former two problems, which are the ones that really matter to people. (For an unblinkered retrospective, read this piece by Jonathan Chait.) But in the event that he doesn’t, or in the event that he does, but fails to break the cycle of non-responsiveness, here’s a quick overview.

It's a really fantastic article about what's happening. I thought about making a thread in the OT -- if someone wants to, go crazy.
 

Thai

Bane was better.
I think you're going about this in a kind of oblivious manner. My wife and I make about as much as that couple that you mentioned. And if someone came up and said to us "You're going to have to extract 200 more a month to take care of something you don't want" I'd be irritated. Now, granted, most likely their actual insurance was shit. But still. I can understand being irritated that you have to spend more money that you feel you shouldn't have to.

Now, my wife and I deal with finances differently than a lot of couples I think, and with that said, I have spent the better part of the last few years helping out my mother financially. We are paycheck to paycheck between student loans, car payments, mortgage, my son's school, and cancer care for my mother. On paper, 80k seems like a lot of money, but after handling everything we have to, and after taxes, we're pay check to paycheck unfortunately. If we didn't have the added expense of my mother then we'd be okay, and that increase wouldn't phase us.

Not knowing all the details about this, but does cost of cancer care decrease for your mom with the ACA?
 
Does anyone have a good link or explanation as to how Vermont is doing their single payer system?

I'd like to see some details on how it is being implemented and what that means for the average person who has health insurance and for those who do not have health insurance.
 

Aylinato

Member
Tom Dashcle confirmed the public option was taken off the table just to get the insurance companies to the table. It never had a chance of being in the bill. I'm sure someone will point out Dashcle retracted his claim later but it's pretty obvious what happened.
http://www.salon.com/2010/10/05/public_option_24/

Same reason why the bill doesn't allow the government to negotiate drug prices, or allow people to purchase prescription drugs from Canada.



PD, I enjoy talking politics with you. :)
 
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