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PoliGAF 2015 |OT2| Pls print

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M

Maledict

Member
Yep - Romneys PACS weren't much use in the general election, but they are what got him the nomination. In particular, the double carpet bombing of Gingrich in Iowa and Florida is what took him out of the race (twice), and then the assaults on Santorum towards the end. If Romneys side hadn't spent such vast amounts of cash in crucifying Gingrich his team honestly thought they would have lost the nomination in Florida.
 
G

Giant Panda

Member
Metaphoreus said:
No, you didn't, and no, I didn't. On the latter point, a person who believes that both abortion and comprehensive sex education are immoral doesn't favor one over the other by opposing both. As for "enforcing their religious morals," that's called democracy, in that their refusal to support what they view as immoral becomes embodied as government policy through that governing structure. Plus, they'd be doing it no less if they supported comprehensive sex education because they believed it would reduce abortions. As to your earlier point, here's the first paragraph from your original post:
Click to expand...

No, they do favor one if in the pursuit of one they actively hurt the achievement of the other. I'm not saying that they don't believe in both, but people reveal their preferences when they continue to follow the same behaviors and believe the same things after seeing the results of those behaviors and beliefs.

Enforcing religious morals is not democracy. If you are trying to enforce a moral that you can only justify due to your religion, then you are a tyrant.
 
V

Veritigo_X

Member
Y2Kev said:
Wow uh why did Christie move up in the prediction markets?
Click to expand...

Makai said:
Endorsed by NH Union Leader
Click to expand...

Plus other key endorsements. Renee Plummer, a prominent NH real estate developer, and Donna Sytek, former speaker of the New Hampshire House of Representatives.

ABC News is calling it a "resurgence."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/chris-christies-hampshire-resurgence/story?id=35483504

I don't get why the Union Leader endorsement is such a big deal considering they endorsed Gingrich in 2012.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
I think Christie is legit competitive in general. I'm not liking this "resurgence". But the union leader also endorsed Newt Gingrich in 2012 but RomRom won the state in the primary. Hoping this resurgence translates to 1% bump in polling.
 
M

Makai

Member
RustyNails said:
I think Christie is legit competitive in general. I'm not liking this "resurgence". But the union leader also endorsed Newt Gingrich in 2012 but RomRom won the state in the primary. Hoping this resurgence translates to 1% bump in polling.
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I dunno. Getting indicted would be a hell of an October surprise.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Maledict said:
Yep - Romneys PACS weren't much use in the general election, but they are what got him the nomination. In particular, the double carpet bombing of Gingrich in Iowa and Florida is what took him out of the race (twice), and then the assaults on Santorum towards the end. If Romneys side hadn't spent such vast amounts of cash in crucifying Gingrich his team honestly thought they would have lost the nomination in Florida.
Click to expand...

There's no way Gingrich would have defeated Romney. It's revisionist history to argue Romney only won due to PAC money - he was the only candidate who could have won the primary.

At that time Gingrich was already losing steam due to the adultery claims.
 
M

Makai

Member
lol at the guy hoping someone assassinates Trump to prevent World War 3. People are getting way too scared about this election.

2009 was a scary time for me because a lot of my classmates had the same fantasy about Obama.
 
R

Roland_Gunner

Member
RustyNails said:
I think Christie is legit competitive in general. I'm not liking this "resurgence". But the union leader also endorsed Newt Gingrich in 2012 but RomRom won the state in the primary. Hoping this resurgence translates to 1% bump in polling.
Click to expand...

Christie's dirty as hell. The bridge stuff was just the tip of the iceberg. Clinton would crush him.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Roland_Gunner said:
Christie's dirty as hell. The bridge stuff was just the tip of the iceberg. Clinton would crush him.
Click to expand...
Hillary will win against any chump put out by the GOP. We're just discussing who will give her a harder time. I think Christie is a Trump with a better makeup. If he can channel that anti everything hysteria Trump/Carson tapped into, he can start becoming real candidate.
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
Christie is legit the best politician of any of the Republican candidates in terms of charisma and ability to connect with people. He would be a formidable opponent in the general election, the only question is whether is temperament and shady past would crush him. Ultimately I can see him winning the general election though.

I hope Trump starts going after him, should be hilarious.
 
A

Abinash117

Member
RustyNails said:
Hillary will win against any chump put out by the GOP. We're just discussing who will give her a harder time. I think Christie is a Trump with a better makeup. If he can channel that anti everything hysteria Trump/Carson tapped into, he can start becoming real candidate.
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Christie is a RINO I think. Besides I doubt his campaign will be good enough to be like Trump's. Just like every Republican candidate he'll appeal only to certain people and because of that I doubt he as many ways to connect with the people he needs to connect to. I don't see any real way any Republican can win the general for that to happen they need to stop being a Republican, but that would cause the, to lose votes on their own side.
 
V

Veritigo_X

Member
The only attack ad needed to fight any sort of Christie "resurgence" is a single image:

obama-christie.jpg


That'll make any Trump or Cruz supporter think twice before switching sides.
 
B

Bel Marduk

Banned
RustyNails said:
I think Christie is legit competitive in general. I'm not liking this "resurgence". But the union leader also endorsed Newt Gingrich in 2012 but RomRom won the state in the primary. Hoping this resurgence translates to 1% bump in polling.
Click to expand...

Christie is not competitive in the primary nor the general. Its only his ego keeping him going.

There are many, many reasons to dislike Christie. He's corrupt and has been an ineffective leader. His confrontational style is appalling.

On a completely superficial level, we haven't elected a fat president since Taft in 1912. This is despite the fact that two thirds of Americans are overweight.

Republicans don't like him because he hugged Obama. That's why he's gone nowhere in the primary.
 
H

Hindl

Member
RustyNails said:
I think Christie is legit competitive in general. I'm not liking this "resurgence". But the union leader also endorsed Newt Gingrich in 2012 but RomRom won the state in the primary. Hoping this resurgence translates to 1% bump in polling.
Click to expand...

Christie isn't scary. He's been a disaster in NJ, and was only saved because of his good response to Sandy. If he gets into the general he will get absolutely bodied
 
B

Bel Marduk

Banned
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Come on, Jeb, please win the primary. You'll lose automatically in the general, but won't lead to more hate crimes being committed because of words :/ (He has no chance of being the nominee though)
Click to expand...

Jeb! says we should only accept Christian refugees from Syria. One of these nominees is not necessarily better than the other. Its the entire rotten party that needs to be defeated and destroyed in every election.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Hate crime shooting against Muslim cab driver:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...in-back/?postshare=9631448899340732&tid=ss_tw

Come on, Jeb, please win the primary. You'll lose automatically in the general, but won't lead to more hate crimes being committed because of words :/ (He has no chance of being the nominee though)
Click to expand...
I was just about to let you know about this incident due to your concern about hate talk against Muslims spiraling out.
“He started the conversation and began to ask questions like, ‘You seem to be like a Pakistani guy. Are you from Pakistan?’ ” the driver said in an interview from his bed at UPMC Mercy, where he is being treated for a bullet wound in the upper back. “And I said, ‘No, I’m from Morocco. But I’m an American guy.’


Then he continued the conversation. He began to speak about ISIS killing people. I told him ‘Actually, I’m against ISIS. I don’t like them.’ I even told him that they are killing innocent people. I noticed that he changed his tone and he began to satirize Muhammad, my prophet, and began to shift to his personal life. He mentioned that he has two kids and was in prison for some time.

“So it was this kind of stuff until we got to his destination. He asked me to wait for a little bit because he forgot his wallet in the house. I waited for just five minutes, I think, and I noticed that he came out of the house carrying a rifle in his hand. I noticed him coming toward me. I didn’t hesitate. I [made] a fast decision to leave and drove my taxi away because I felt he was going to do something. There is danger. He would shoot me or something. I felt like he had the intention to kill me.

The driver said that as he sped away he heard a couple of gunshots, one of which blasted out the back window of his cab and struck him.
Click to expand...
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Pre-Reagan, Republicans were more pro-choice than any other group of people in the U.S.

CVEvH9uWcAEOl_l.jpg


Bel Marduk said:
Jeb! says we should only accept Christian refugees from Syria. One of these nominees is not necessarily better than the other. Its the entire rotten party that needs to be defeated and destroyed in every election.
Click to expand...

He's hateful, but he's not inspiring or over the top enough to lead to actual violence.
 
M

Makai

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Come on, Jeb, please win the primary. You'll lose automatically in the general, but won't lead to more hate crimes being committed because of words :/ (He has no chance of being the nominee though)
Click to expand...
I see no reason to believe the nominee would influence the hate crime rate. This is a reaction to the Paris attacks.
 
R

Retromelon

Member
Frank the Great said:
Christie is legit the best politician of any of the Republican candidates in terms of charisma and ability to connect with people.
Click to expand...

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one. A man is running that hasn't a day of experience in public office, and he has managed to convince a significant plurality of republicans that he is what the country needs, largely through the force of his own personality. Meanwhile, Christie is despised in his own state.
 
M

Makai

Member
I really take offense to the idea that I'm not allowed to enjoy the Republican primary. People are getting way too scared.
 
M

Makai

Member
The concern I have is that people will be so busy making fun of Trump that they will ignore what is evidently a very real problem. And it's not muslims, it's the general population's acceptance of muslims.
Click to expand...

This guy deserved his tag so much.
 
S

Sianos

Member
What sort of reactions do you think referring to the Planned Parenthood attacks and their celebration as "radical Christian terrorism" would prompt, and how closely do you think the indignant responses from objectors would mirror the same responses they brush off as "political correctness"?
 
J

JesseEwiak

Member
PhoenixDark said:
What would a competent use of PAC money look like? Say, if you were running a PAC how would you do it. I think it can be very effective in state elections but even that has asterisks. If you do it during a presidential election you're tied to the success/failure of whoever is on top of the ticket (see 2012), and if you do it during a midterm you're basically overspending on a result that will likely happen regardless.
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I actually do think PAC's on a national level are kind of useless because of the sheer amount of money being thrown around, but the ways they've been real useful is when people like the Koch's poke their heads into relatively small local issues like a zoo levy, which can actually screw things up because relatively non-partisan things like zoo levies become partisan political issues.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
This story of Kasich and Jeb refusing to actually call out Trump perfectly encapsulates why none of us have to worry about a conservative win next year: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...sh-and-kasich-afraid-of-trumps-voters/417981/

Dickerson then asked Jeb, “If [Trump] became the nominee, would you still support him?” Bush responded, “I have great doubts about Donald Trump’s ability to be commander in chief,” but “anybody is better than Hillary Clinton.” When Dickerson asked why “specifically” Trump is better than Clinton, Jeb ignored the question, declaring, “The more they hear of [Trump], the less likely it is he’s going to get the Republican nomination.”
Click to expand...

On ABC’s This Week, John Kasich was even worse. Martha Raddatz began by asking the Ohio governor about an ad of his that “appears to compare Donald Trump to Adolf Hitler. Is that the comparison?” Of course it’s the comparison. The ad consists entirely of a paraphrase by Colonel Tom Moe of German Pastor Martin Niemoller’s famous statement that because he did not stand up for Hitler’s initial victims, there was ultimately no one left to stand up for him. Moe just substitutes Trump’s targets for Hitler’s.

Kasich’s answer was astonishing. Asked if he was comparing Trump to Hitler, he began by saying no. Then he distanced himself from his own ad. “This is Colonel Tom Moe,” Kasich explained. “He was a POW for five years in North Vietnam, was beaten and tortured, and came within an inch of losing his own life. And these are his words. He feels very strongly about a man who divides us.”

Perplexed, Raddatz interjected, “But it is your ad.” To which Kasich replied, “But it’s his words.” Evidently candidates are only responsible for the words in their advertisements that they utter themselves.

Raddatz then asked the obvious follow-up: Does the fact that you’re running an ad comparing Trump to Hitler “mean you would not support him if he were the nominee?”

Kasich refused to answer: “Well, he’s not going to be the nominee.”

Raddatz tried again: “But answer that question. You say he won’t get the nomination. But if he does, will you support him?”

Kasich non-answered again: “He’s not going to. So we’re not even going to go there.”

Raddatz tried one last time: “So would you support him, Governor Kasich, if he is the Republican nominee?”

Kasich evaded one last time: “He’s not going to make it ... It’s just not going to happen, Martha. And everybody needs to get over it and take a deep breath.”

So when the would-be leader of your country scapegoats and threatens its most vulnerable groups, the correct response is to “take a deep breath” because such threats will never be carried out? Perhaps Kasich should read Niemoller’s words again.
Click to expand...

Kasich -- the man who is running an ad saying the paraphrased version of 'i stood up for nobody when they came for them and now nobody is left to stand for me' Hitler call out is so terrified of either getting attacked by Trump or losing his potential voters that he thinks 'take a deep breath' is the way to answer this.

Anyway, read the whole thing. These cowards can't stop Trump because they don't want to anger the base and don't want him to run third party. So they're paralyzed into doing nothing.
 
Metaphoreus

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Giant Panda said:
No, they do favor one if in the pursuit of one they actively hurt the achievement of the other. I'm not saying that they don't believe in both, but people reveal their preferences when they continue to follow the same behaviors and believe the same things after seeing the results of those behaviors and beliefs.

Enforcing religious morals is not democracy. If you are trying to enforce a moral that you can only justify due to your religion, then you are a tyrant.
Click to expand...

Your argument works only if the options available are morally equivalent. From their perspective, you're saying that they should do what's wrong so that some good may come of it. Their refusal to do so tells us nothing about which moral rule takes precedence.

And that's an idiosyncratic use of the word "tyrant." In fact, democracy doesn't ask why people support the policies or politicians that they do. Moreover, your theory of democracy would shut out most religious people from voting, since, it seems to me, most people try to support policies that they consider moral, and oppose policies that they consider immoral. For the religious, what is moral and immoral is generally going to be a purely religious question. Your standard condemns the progressive Christian supporting socialism because he believes it's better for the poor (and that God commands us to care for the poor) as much as anyone else.

Frank the Great said:
It would be funny if the proliferation of scam SuperPACs is what causes SCOTUS to eventually overturn its previous holding that Congress cannot regulate them. Congress may not be able to regulate SuperPACs to prevent corruption (since according the the Justices money does not corrupt, lol) but Congress is sure as hell able to regulate consumer fraud.
Click to expand...

The Court hasn't held that Congress can't regulate SuperPACs. Citizens United itself recognized Congress' ability to require certain disclaimers and disclosures regarding "electioneering communications," after all. And I see no reason why what has been alleged wouldn't already be covered by states and federal statutes prohibiting fraud, if proven.
 
P

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
The problem with debating SuperPAC effectiveness is that essentially every other election has been decided by whoever raised the most money. (right?). So suggesting they aren't effectively spent seems to be looking for a problem to question an answer.
 
U

User 406

Banned
NSQuote said:
What sort of reactions do you think referring to the Planned Parenthood attacks and their celebration as "radical Christian terrorism" would prompt, and how closely do you think the indignant responses from objectors would mirror the same responses they brush off as "political correctness"?
Click to expand...

"Christianist" is the proper term, since we've decided that "Islamist" is an adequate descriptor of violent fundamentalist terrorism that in no way ties an entire religion to a bunch of fanatics, since the -ist suffix could never mean anything as general as "denotes a person who practices or is concerned with something".

I'm just being a realist here, which is why I'm going to murder you all now. Real is great.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
PantherLotus said:
This story of Kasich and Jeb refusing to actually call out Trump perfectly encapsulates why none of us have to worry about a conservative win next year: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...sh-and-kasich-afraid-of-trumps-voters/417981/





Kasich -- the man who is running an ad saying the paraphrased version of 'i stood up for nobody when they came for them and now nobody is left to stand for me' Hitler call out is so terrified of either getting attacked by Trump or losing his potential voters that he thinks 'take a deep breath' is the way to answer this.

Anyway, read the whole thing. These cowards can't stop Trump because they don't want to anger the base and don't want him to run third party. So they're paralyzed into doing nothing.
Click to expand...
It also tells you that the establishment clowns are betting on old school numbers probably pulled out of George Will, Kristol and Frum's asses ("he's not gonna win, mm'kay?"). They're gonna be more shellshocked than a Romney on an election night. They will send the false prophet Karl Rove scurrying back into his mouse hole, only to re-emerge in 2019.
 
B

Bel Marduk

Banned
So.. Herman Cain will be speaking at an upcoming Trump rally in Georgia, and he's been torching Jeb! in the process.

What do you guys think are the odds of him picking Cain as a running mate? He and Trump share an extreme lack of substance and it may make Trump's racism more palatable to the racist, but totally not racist segment of the population.
 
B

BertramCooper

Banned
Bel Marduk said:
So.. Herman Cain will be speaking at an upcoming Trump rally in Georgia, and he's been torching Jeb! in the process.

What do you guys think are the odds of him picking Cain as a running mate? He and Trump share an extreme lack of substance and it may make Trump's racism more palatable to the racist, but totally not racist segment of the population.
Click to expand...

Cain is a far greater liability than he is an asset.

I don't understand why Trump would even bother to pretend to care about minorities at this point. Shit, doing so might actually hurt his candidacy.
 
V

Veritigo_X

Member
Bel Marduk said:
So.. Herman Cain will be speaking at an upcoming Trump rally in Georgia, and he's been torching Jeb! in the process.

What do you guys think are the odds of him picking Cain as a running mate? He and Trump share an extreme lack of substance and it may make Trump's racism more palatable to the racist, but totally not racist segment of the population.
Click to expand...

Damn, Cain is brutal! I can't see Trump picking him as a running mate. Getting an endorsement might help among... whatever base Herman Cain had in 2012.

“Someone should tell Jeb Bush that I’ve accepted an invitation to speak at Donald Trump’s rally this coming Monday in Georgia. I accepted for a simple reason: He asked,” Cain writes. “But Gov. Bush seems weirdly interested these days in the connection – if only in his own mind – between what he thinks happened to me and what he thinks is going to happen to Trump.”
Click to expand...
“If you want to say I had a ‘fall,’ go ahead, I guess. You can’t fall when you’ve never gotten any higher than the floor in the first place, and that’s the state of the Jeb Bush campaign,” Cain said. “A guy with his name, his money and the team behind him should be one of the top-tier contenders, and he should certainly not be letting Donald Trump wipe the floor with him if Trump is as unserious and unqualified as Bush would have you believe.”
Click to expand...

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/herman-cain-trump-rally-216259
 
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