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[Deleted member 231381]

The one thing I would say about implementing a minimum income scheme is it would have to be altered for different parts of the country. Otherwise you either have a minimum income which is nowhere near enough in areas like New York, or one which is unnecessarily high and wasteful in areas which are far less expensive to live in.

Yes. I know that the advocacy group trying to get it passed in the UK wants it to exclude housing which would be covered under the same system as the status quo. Generally speaking, minimum income doesn't cope well with inelastic goods - although that's a pretty universal problem. Mind you, a mass house-building programme in certain areas would be beneficial to pretty much any economy, so there are ameliorating factors.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

Condition number one would be the immediate replacement of DWS and veto rights over the next DNC chair. Rybak would be a great way for Clinton to indicate she is serious about being inclusive.

This is a terrible idea. Rybak is such an inept politician that he couldn't get the Democratic nominee to be MN governor OR get his preferred candidate in after bowing out. There's no evidence he was able to be a substantial influence in his home state, beyond being mayor of its largest city. How is he supposed to move the national party forward?

 

[mid83]

The fact that you can't imagine an alternative is telling. You do not own your life or your destiny. You rent it out one day at a time in exchange for sustenance and the hollow promise of security. The fact is, you can't make any other choice, except maybe to become a capitalist yourself.

You don't own what you do, you are owned by it. You are given a task, given a small number of options if any about how you do it, and in your free time you maintain your body and brain so you can do it all over again next week.

All of your decisions are limited to purchasing decisions. If you're an employee, you have very little direct control of your tasks. Your will belongs to your boss and his or her will belongs to his or her boss. Even the capitalist him or herself has very little free will, since capitalism de-selects any owner that doesn't operate within the constraints of the laws of capital.

Now, you may be happy with this situation. Perhaps you're very well adapted. Or perhaps you don't think too deeply about the fact that death will find you having never lived a life outside the conventions demanded by capital. Still, there's an existential dread that I see in most of the people I encounter. They do everything they can to avoid looking at it, but


Remember that I work in hospitals. There's very little room to avoid it when you're losing limbs or suffering with chronic illness.

We owe it to our greater community to add value and service of some sort. However, Capital selects for some known goods but completely undervalues or disregards others and our entire culture and our lives within it are poorer for it.

What's a realistic alternative? These utopian solutions where everybody lives care free and equal with all their needs met don't work in real life. Human nature means people will strive for power over others rather sacrificing for the collective. It's why societies like Communist Russia or Cuba, technically built on the idea of equality for all (but the government of course who can't help but hoard power), force citizens to stay under the threat of a gun.

There will always be a power structure. You can't expect a group of thousands, millions or billions to work and live in harmony without some using the opportunity to have control over others. There is yet to be a society other than regulated capitalism (which the US has despite what some people seem to think) that provides the highest quality of life to the most people.

This idea of a world where we all live free without work or bosses or responsibility is a fairy tale.

 

[Plinko]

Bush plans scorched-earth attack on Kasich, Rubio

By ALEX ISENSTADT 02/09/16 11:34 PM EST
MANCHESTER, N.H. — Jeb Bush is already laying the groundwork for a brutal South Carolina campaign against establishment rivals John Kasich and Marco Rubio.
In an internal memo circulated late Tuesday evening, the campaign distributed talking points to top campaign aides and surrogates, highlighting lines of attack they plan to take against both candidates.
The memo suggests that Kasich, who campaigned extensively in New Hampshire, does not have a realistic path to winning the Republican nomination.
“Governor Kasich has little to no chance in South Carolina, and does not have a national organization that can compete,” the memo says. “Kasich has consistently supported gutting the military and has no viable path in the Palmetto State.”
The memo also outlines hard-hitting avenues of attack against Rubio, who for months has been in Bush’s crosshairs: “Senator Rubio has lost momentum and has been exposed as completely unprepared to be president,” it says, repeating an argument that Bush has used frequently against Rubio.
It adds: “Rubio has demonstrated no respect for the nomination process and expects this to be a coronation.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/blogs/new-h...h-attack-on-kasich-rubio-219058#ixzz3zln9IUdx

Oh. Yes.

 

[CCS]

Yes. I know that the advocacy group trying to get it passed in the UK wants it to exclude housing which would be covered under the same system as the status quo. Generally speaking, minimum income doesn't cope well with inelastic goods - although that's a pretty universal problem. Mind you, a mass house-building programme in certain areas would be beneficial to pretty much any economy, so there are ameliorating factors.

I feel like the best way to approach this problem is to view it as composed from a component related to housing costs (there are various metrics to choose from to determine the level of this component), and a non-housing cost of living component. I think that trying to work out the two aspects separately and then combine them into one income level is the best way to try and cope with this.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is a terrible idea. Rybak is such an inept politician that he couldn't get the Democratic nominee to be MN governor OR get his preferred candidate in after bowing out. There's no evidence he was able to be a substantial influence in his home state, beyond being mayor of its largest city. How is he supposed to move the national party forward?

And? Managing an individual run requires a totally different skillset to managing a party; it's like insisting that business leaders make for better economies because they ran one business. Rybak personally impressed Obama and was Obama's favoured choice for DNC chair; DWS was a move to appease Clinton. Obama knows his organizational shit and I'd trust his judgement on Rybak.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I feel like the best way to approach this problem is to view it as composed from a component related to housing costs (there are various metrics to choose from to determine the level of this component), and a non-housing cost of living component. I think that trying to work out the two aspects separately and then combine them into one income level is the best way to try and cope with this.

Yes, agreed.

 

[disastermouse]

What's a realistic alternative? These utopian solutions where everybody lives care free and equal with all their needs met don't work in real life. Human nature means people will strive for power over others rather sacrificing for the collective. It's why societies like Communist Russia or Cuba, technically built on the idea of equality for all (but the government of course who can't help but hoard power), force citizens to stay under the threat of a gun.

There will always be a power structure. You can't expect a group of thousands, millions or billions to work and live in harmony without some using the opportunity to have control over others. There is yet to be a society other than regulated capitalism (which the US has despite what some people seem to think) that provides the highest quality of life to the most people.

This idea of a world where we all live free without work or bosses or responsibility is a fairy tale.

I don't think we can have a fairy tale without work. I do think we can democratize the ownership of our work, though, and that would make a rather large difference in allowing other values to take their proper places amongst the mere demand for profit. I also think that creating enough breathing room for people to engage in jobs based on chosen skills where access to healthcare (more entrepreneurship) and education are not restrictions in the attempt for talent and passion to find meaningful expression are essential human values.

In the short term, yes, a basic universal income would provide that breathing room and give workers an option between starvation and 'barely scraping by', degrading work. I think that if you have been able to find meaning in your vocation, that's a great thing - but for far too many people, such options are simply not accessible and the entire society suffers for it.

Violent revolutions that do nothing to address the need to move mere employees into active members of their own self-management and ownership of the economy is disastrous. It replaces a coercive but impersonal capitalist imperative with a system susceptible to abuse using the cover of ideology to mask the inherent coerciveness of THAT system. It may come to violent revolution at some point, but without a tradition of worker self-management and the group ownership of their own work, it's far too easy for party apparatchiks to simply become the new coercive authority and for the working class to remain dis-empowered doubly - both by a repressive state and by the dictates of socialist ideology.

True socialism requires the ownership of the workplace by the workers themselves, along with all the thorny issues of worker self-management as a collective. You can't just make that jump via revolution. IMHO.

 

[FiggyCal]

You don't have to be to have a response. If you disagree, fine - but speak to the critique. A very redistributive social democrat program could work, but it could always be rolled back and historically, they are rolled back, as they are antipathetic to the needs of capital.

Luckily, Marxists haven't been very successful as revolutionaries either.

 

[Bowdz]

Politico has Bernie getting 13 delegates and Hilldawg getting 15. That can't be right right?

 

[thefro]

Bush plans scorched-earth attack on Kasich, Rubio




Read more: http://www.politico.com/blogs/new-h...h-attack-on-kasich-rubio-219058#ixzz3zln9IUdx

Oh. Yes.

I can't wait for the push polls accusing Rubio of having a secret Latino baby

 

[NeoXChaos]

Politico has Bernie getting 13 delegates and Hilldawg getting 15. That can't be right right?

its right because of superdelegates. She got 9 pledged and 6 unpledged

 

[disastermouse]

Luckily, Marxists haven't been very successful as revolutionaries either.

What? The USSR survived for what, 80 or 90 years? In that time, it catapulted from an agrarian backwater to an industrial powerhouse that seriously challenged U.S. hegemony. Ultimately, it failed, but it was a resounding success in a number of ways.

Compare it to the far-right dictatorships of Western Europe. They didn't last nearly as long and were far more bellicose and destructive.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend the violent overthrow of government tomorrow. Until a worker-management tradition is in place to truly allow the working class to take power, revolution is disastrous.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It's 13-9 with 2 currently undecided because voting has not yet been counted. It will go 15-9 because I think Clinton would have to win something like 91% of the uncounted vote for it not to, so there you go. NH has 6 superdelegates, all of whom have currently endorse Clinton, hence 13-15, but I think it's pointless counting superdelegates right now - you just have to look at how many switched as Obama did progressively better. They won't defy the popular vote.

 

[Frank the Great]

So Christie spent the last six months living in New Hampshire, neglecting his duties as governor, and finished in sixth place.

Fucking beautiful.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

So Christie spent the last six months living in New Hampshire, neglecting his duties as governor, and finished in sixth place.

Fucking beautiful.

He fulfilled his life's purpose: the televised murder of Marco Rubio. Nothing more was needed.

 

[FiggyCal]

What? The USSR survived for what, 80 or 90 years? In that time, it catapulted from an agrarian backwater to an industrial powerhouse that seriously challenged U.S. hegemony. Ultimately, it failed, but it was a resounding success in a number of ways.

Compare it to the far-right dictatorships of Western Europe. They didn't last nearly as long and were far more bellicose and destructive.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend the violent overthrow of government tomorrow. Until a worker-management tradition is in place to truly allow the working class to take power, revolution is disastrous.

It looks like the USSR rolled back into capitalism, rather than going stateless, much like social democracy would. Except that social democracy skips gulags, dictators, and executing anarchists and other political dissenters.

 

[Y2Kev]

Bush coming in second in South Carolina would be pretty great.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

And? Managing an individual run requires a totally different skillset to managing a party; it's like insisting that business leaders make for better economies because they ran one business. Rybak personally impressed Obama and was Obama's favoured choice for DNC chair; DWS was a move to appease Clinton. Obama knows his organizational shit and I'd trust his judgement on Rybak.

The fact that Rybak, as the mayor of Minneapolis, where over half of the state lives in the metro area, wasn't able to persuade members of his own party to support him for governor or support his preferred alternative is pretty telling. There also hasn't been any desire from the state party, which is doing very well unlike national Dems, to run him in future races.

For the idea that Obama's endorsement should over-ride any other concerns about Rybak; James Fallows, one of the most perceptive writers in modern American politics has persuasively argued that Obama's tendency to favor campaign surrogate and allies over more qualified candidates was the single biggest weakness of his first term. Why should anyone believe that Rybak isn't another example of this?

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/03/obama-explained/308874/

 

[QuiteWhittle]

So Christie spent the last six months living in New Hampshire, neglecting his duties as governor, and finished in sixth place.

Fucking beautiful.

And his quixotic run for president further tanked his approval ratings, helped the Dems increase their large majority in the NJ General Assembly, and will help the Dems pick up a governorship in 2017.

 

[Gruco]

Bush plans scorched-earth attack on Kasich, Rubio




Read more: http://www.politico.com/blogs/new-h...h-attack-on-kasich-rubio-219058#ixzz3zln9IUdx

Oh. Yes.

Poor Jeb has no idea how effective Rubio's 3-5-1 plan will be.

 

[Y2Kev]

And his quixotic run for president further tanked his approval ratings, helped the Dems increase their large majority in the NJ General Assembly, and will help the Dems pick up a governorship in 2017.

I hope Fulop runs!

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Clinton needs better response to the wall street questions. I can't believe how badly they have handled that.

People like Madeline Albright and Gloria need to stop campaigning for her. Bill and her need to only heed to advice of the campaign staff not Mark Penn and what not.

Campaigning needs to happen more from her local surrogates and mayors especially.

 

[User 406]

I think a lot of people who think a basic income scheme would be impossibly expensive don't realize that all of that money will be spent directly back into the economy, driving growth. And that's without even getting into the positive effects on the workforce from the freedom to pursue education and retraining, and to avoid abusive employment.


And dammit, Kasich got 2nd. :/ Hopefully he'll tank in SC.

 

[disastermouse]

It looks like the USSR rolled back into capitalism, rather than going stateless, much like social democracy would. Except that social democracy skips gulags, dictators, and executing anarchists and other political dissenters.

After 80-90 years, and starting with an agrarian backwater. And social democracy is being rolled back in Europe because of the demands of capital. Without an ownership stake in the means of production, this will always be result - one step forward, two steps back.

The displacement of the capitalist class is a requirement, but it's not sufficient. There has to be meaningful worker self-management with community involvement in the workplace, not the replacement of capitalists with state power.

And Putin's Russia? You want to put that forth as a victory for Capitalism? Good lord Siddhartha, that's an oligarchy that very much has political prisoners and state-sanctioned assassinations.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Clinton needs better response to the wall street questions. I can't believe how badly they have handled that.

People like Madeline Albright and Gloria need to stop campaigning for her. Bill and her need to only heed to advice of the campaign staff not Mark Penn and what not.

Campaigning needs to happen more from her local surrogates and mayors especially.

But she's a great campaigner, honest! She'll weather the Republican attacks in the general election just fine, she definitely never shoots herself in the foot or inflicts totally unnecessary own goals.

 

[FiggyCal]

I think a lot of people who think a basic income scheme would be impossibly expensive don't realize that all of that money will be spent directly back into the economy, driving growth. And that's without even getting into the positive effects on the workforce from the freedom to pursue education and retraining, and to avoid abusive employment.


And dammit, Kasich got 2nd. :/ Hopefully he'll tank in SC.

He can make top 4 if he keeps saying how great Strom Thurmond was. But it won't matter because Trump will win.

And Putin's Russia? You want to put that forth as a victory for Capitalism? Good lord Siddhartha, that's an oligarchy that very much has political prisoners and state-sanctioned assassinations.

The point was that, that's what the USSR turned into pretty quickly. It's a victory for capitalism, but so was Pinochet I guess.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

But she's a great campaigner, honest! She'll weather the Republican attacks in the general election just fine, she definitely never shoots herself in the foot or inflicts totally unnecessary own goals.

It's much easier to handle Republicans than Bernie wanting to convert to single payer healthcare.

 

[Maledict]

To be fair you are putting forward a regime that slaughtered tens of millions of its own people as a counter argument against capitalism.

 

[Bowdz]

Poor Jeb has no idea how effective Rubio's 3-5-1 plan will be.

He's on that Wendler plan.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I'm confused as to why the U.S.S.R. is being touted as a successful socialist state. Firstly, it wasn't socialist, given that the means of the production were controlled by the government rather than the workers and workers had effectively no input into the government, and secondly it wasn't successful, insofar as that it collapsed from a state capital system to a private capital system - and that's also just considering success in terms of system stability rather than e.g. the freedom not be executed for your political beliefs. Doesn't seem like a great example to me.

 

[FiggyCal]

I'm confused as to why the U.S.S.R. is being touted as a successful socialist state. Firstly, it wasn't socialist, given that the means of the production were controlled by the government rather than the workers and workers had effectively no input into the government, and secondly it wasn't successful, insofar as that it collapsed from a state capital system to a private capital system - and that's also just considering success in terms of system stability rather than e.g. the freedom not be executed for your political beliefs. Doesn't seem like a great example to me.

Right. I just don't get mostly how socialists (particularly Marxists) can be so sure that socialism means democracy and then turn a blind eye towards what actually happened in the USSR which was totally undemocratic.

 

[Macho Madness]

Bern the New Hampshire thread. It's a steeming pile of trash now.

 

[User 406]

The thing about disruptive chaos is you don't know what's going to come out the other end. A lot of people sure like to pretend they know, though.

 

[QuiteWhittle]

But she's a great campaigner, honest! She'll weather the Republican attacks in the general election just fine, she definitely never shoots herself in the foot or inflicts totally unnecessary own goals.

Republicans are easier to handle then someone attacking her from the left. A former Lehman Brothers executive or husband of a Goldman Sachs exec aren't going to attack her on her Wall Street ties and it's easy to play the woman card when your opponent wants to ban rape victims from getting abortions.

Honestly, writing this, I can see why some people might be afraid of Trump.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Right. I just don't get mostly how socialists (particularly Marxists) can be so sure that socialism means democracy and then turn a blind eye towards what actually happened in the USSR which was totally undemocratic.

That's unfair to Marxists. I'm not a Marxist (in the orthodox sense), but I do know that a lot of Marxist branches disagree with the Marxist-Leninists. I think the majority opinion among Marxist schools is that the U.S.S.R. was not a socialist state; even if a minority of schools disagree.

There's a bolshevik/menshevik joke there somewhere.

 

[dramatis]

I think there's something to this:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/the-anxiety-of-marco-rubio#.rg93E1PWal

Watching Rubio repeat himself was weird, but familiar: I've done that before myself, in anxious moments.

He's ambitious, but doesn't have the confidence to be better right now. I'm pretty sure a lot of people have those kinds of feelings, it's just easier to poke fun at someone who went way out of his bounds and messed up on live television.

 

[FiggyCal]

That's unfair to Marxists. I'm not a Marxist, but I do know that a lot of Marxist branches disagree with the Marxist-Leninists. I think the majority opinion among Marxist schools is that the U.S.S.R. was not a socialist state; even if a minority of schools disagree.

There's a bolshevik/menshevik joke there somewhere.

Ehh... The problem is that I'm probably on Reddit too much. I've seen more defense for Stalin and Mao than I care for.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Trump's comments this morning on MSNBC about Rubio getting slain by Christie.

https://twitter.com/SopanDeb/status/697391195295780864

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Trump's concern trolling is A++; just give him the damn title.

 

[rjinaz]

Holy hell I am now a Chris Matthews fan.

"There is a Troll like quality to Cruz. He operates below the level of human life".

 

[Y2Kev]

Trump would have like 19 bans here but still be a member.

"I really love the Muslim people and their culture but I wonder if some communities would be accepting of basically how they are all terrorists."

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I think a lot of people who think a basic income scheme would be impossibly expensive don't realize that all of that money will be spent directly back into the economy, driving growth. And that's without even getting into the positive effects on the workforce from the freedom to pursue education and retraining, and to avoid abusive employment.


And dammit, Kasich got 2nd. :/ Hopefully he'll tank in SC.

This is where many on the left lose me. I favorite as more effective than traditional welfare.

The former I think is prone to abuse and not a goal I share completely. And I don't see how the second comes about. Unions and workers organizing is the only way to prevent that. See widespread abuse even in high income jobs.

 

[A Human Becoming]

I have to say, "Live Free or Die" is a pretty cool state motto.

Coolest state motto, the one thing we do have better than every other state.

 

[dramatis]

Trump would have like 19 bans here but still be a member.

"I really love the Muslim people and their culture but I wonder if some communities would be accepting of basically how they are all terrorists."

So basically PhoenixDark?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Trump would have like 19 bans here but still be a member.

Trump is blamespace confirmed.

 

[Y2Kev]

I mean...you could see it.

 

[User 406]

This is where many on the left lose me. I favorite as more effective than traditional welfare.

The former I think is prone to abuse and not a goal I share completely. And I don't see how the second comes about. Unions and workers organizing is the only way to prevent that. See widespread abuse even in high income jobs.

I have absolutely zero problem with someone "abusing" a basic income to continue their education. An educated citizenry is a better citizenry.

As for the second, you stick with your shitty high income job because you'd still have to find another job. Being assured of not starving to death, becoming homeless, or dying from an illness makes it a lot easier to make that jump if you're unhappy. It reduces employer leverage. And there's no reason unions can't be a part of this system too.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Come on Hillary, you can do eet

 

[Frank the Great]

I hope Fulop runs!

Any (Dem) but Sweeney IMO.