JesseEwiak
Member
If I'm Hillary, I'm responding to that with, "I also thought Ringo was the cutest Beatle at 15. None of us are perfect as teenagers," or something like to highlight the absurdity of going after somebodies political opinions at 15.
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada
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If I'm Hillary, I'm responding to that with, "I also thought Ringo was the cutest Beatle at 15. None of us are perfect as teenagers," or something like to highlight the absurdity of going after somebodies political opinions at 15.
User 463088
Banned
It reminds me of that Sia girl. I don't get her either.
No. It would be the absolute stupidest line of attack anyone could possibly level at her in the history of the world. There is no one in their right mind who doesn't believe Hillary freaking Clinton is a Democrat. People may think she's a soulless, neo-liberal, corporate, she-witch murderer, but she's a Democratic soulless, neo-liberal, corporate she-witch murderer.
Then point out that Elizabeth Warren was a republican until 1996 and that people change.
My family is very deep into the Republican Party of CT. My grandma's brother was Speaker of the House and almost ran against Ella T. Grasso (he would've lost, something I love to remind my family any chance I get).
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
No, I think it's a terrible line of attack. I'm just pointing out why Clinton won't therefore draw attention to whatever happened in the '60s.
UltimaPooh
Member
The paragraph you posted puts it in simple terms.
That's if his plan passes Congress... and if it doesn't we have ACA. He's not trading one for the other. He's going for an upgrade if he can.
I totally get you want something more concrete but that will come through in a bill when he gets to that stage. Who knows... maybe if he loses the nom he'll still create the bill and you'll get to see more of the plan.
But I know now that you really don't care if there is a plan or not based on your remarks of not caring whether or not what Hilary would do to tweak the ACA. It's just a talking point to you because you want to paint Bernie as this pie in the sky candidate and people shouldn't get their hopes up... pragmatism, blah, realist, blah.
Fenderputty
Banned
I'm born in 1980. So, I maintain I have the best of both and worst of neither.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
Right, which is why I think, for both their sake, it's best not to question what either candidate was doing in the past, which John Lewis' comments seem to be attempting to make an issue of.
edit- by past I mean like pre-1980. Obviously their legislative record and such is fair game.
eBay Huckster
Member
My favorite thing about the words in that description is probably the fact that on Facebook, I take care to only contest two of them.
Soulless and corporate.
Coriolanus
Banned
Narratives. If she brings up the distant past, then she cannot riposte with "lol, who gives a shit about the distant past?"
It is a very bad line to start an attack, yes, but a very good counter to a line that dredges up ancient history.
Black Mamba
Member
Would he? I don't know. He's an idealist and nothing that I've seen in his career makes me believe he's winning to take tiny victories over the big thing.
Remember when Obama offered Boehner so much in 2011 and he couldn't because his members refused to compromise one iota. Is Bernie any different?
Bernie is known in Washington as uncompromising. I don't want that. That's not a leader.
First off, misuse of irony (pet peeve of mine). Second, even in that misuse you're wrong. My argument against Bernie is not that he can't pass shit. At all.
I'll support Bernie over any GOPer, of course. He still will appoint SCOTUS judges and won't try to go to war the first chance he gets.
Now, yes, his stuff is pie in the sky like healthcare reform. But that's not my argument against his Presidency versus Clinton. That was my argument about why his messaging is working.
I mean, I don't mind that he's running on single payer, even if it can't pass. My problem is with his messaging on it, the fact that I don't even know what his plan means, and I have numerous other criticisms unrelated to the "he can't pass anything" argument which I don't hold.
That entire timeline is a mess.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Bernie's passed more amendments than any other senator. How on earth is he not detail oriented? He also his more experience than Clinton with healthcare specifically, given that he helped write the ACA. Insofar as Clinton has experience, it was as Secretary of State. That has what exactly to do with healthcare?
Coriolanus
Banned
In washington? No. iirc, quite the contrary, as recently seen with the VA stuff.
His public persona is seen as that, yes.
Plus, again, the alternative is a person that publicly called republicans her enemies. If you don't want uncompromising, i'd say such an individual is best avoided.
User 463088
Banned
I mean, I see it differently. Bernie's AA outreach spiel for months has been that he marched with Dr. King. How many times has he trotted out that damn pony? Someone who was deeply involved in the actual running of SNCC simply said he had no knowledge of him being there. Bernie's campaign has a track record of overselling things. Bernie was one of thousands of well meaning activists who wanted to make a difference. That's admirable. However, it doesn't make him some expert on the AA community or the ways in which race is perceived in this country. I think it's completely fair to point out that his involvement wasn't super impactful.
Actually, not being super impactful is like a mantra for Bernie's entire political career....
This explains why you're even more excited about Rubio blow ups than I am.
Hillary was 17. She couldn't even vote let alone register. The voting age was 21+ at the time. How was she a Republican?
The attack on that is absolute garbage.
Sanders can't even get Democrats to support him. He has Democratic Senators saying this:
"Sanders supporters want "to dismiss the fact that none of his colleagues have endorsed him, but you cant, McCaskill said. He hasnt had the ability to get consensus or lead people.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/...sanders-senate-democrats-218751#ixzz3ztK1IjoR
These people are the ones who are supposed to be his allies.
eBay Huckster
Member
Well, that's not entirely accurate - the 1993 reform attempt (the Health Security Act) was nicknamed Hillarycare because she headed the task force that drafted the compromise bill constituting that attempt.
(Evidently it failed, but I'm just sayin' - it's not really accurate to say Clinton has no experience dealing with health care reform.)
Black Mamba
Member
How is this any different than the Republican Health Care plans (note, not on actual ideological ground but on specifics).
For years we've made fun of the GOP for not having a replacement plan when all they say is "tort reform, state lines, vouchers," which is surprisingly more detailed than Bernie's.
All Bernie has done is literally say "single payer," and that's it.
Bernie has had years to write this bill in Congress and never has. He's been arguing for single payer for as long as I can remember. He won't ever write such a bill because he doesn't actually understand it, in terms of policy-making. He just understands the idea of it. Which, again, is fine and useful but not worthy of becoming President alone. Granted, should he get elected he would have people write a proper bill. But here's the thing, Obama had a concept of health care reform he wanted, worked with his wonks to flesh things out, then adjusted. Bernie has no clue how to actually go about a single payer system. he just wants one.
I do care about plans. I know what Hillary's is. She's maintaining the status quo with proper tweaks. What's so hard to understand. There's no major overhaul. I don't know Bernie's single payer plan. No one does.
FTR, I don't not support Bernie because of single payer. There are numerous reasons why and actually, his health care is towards the bottom. It's just his idealism is ridiculous.
UltimaPooh
Member
Coriolanus
Banned
Which has nothing to do with what was being argued, and is evidently expected, given that Clinton is running and Bernie has no real history inside the party.
In regular scenarios? Why yes, they are his allies and he is theirs, which is why he nearly always votes with them.
A dem primary where he just joined the party is, evidently, not a regular scenario.
cartoon_soldier
Member
She will just pivot to gun control
Ditto.
But I'm firmly in the Gen X generation, so it fits.
From the past decade, I think I can name maybe a small handful of new pop/rap songs. Usually they're the ones played at football games or at parades.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This is just wrong. There's no way that Sanders is going to say "fuck it, couldn't get singlepayer passed, better just abolish ACA and be done with it". Like, you can only think that if your IQ is negative or you're deliberately trying to misportray Sanders and have absolutely no interest in having a reasonable discussion.
Firstly, go fuck yourself:
In this case, the words were yours and the significance you didn't catch was clear to e.g. Coriolanus or really anyone who has a good sense of when someone plays themselves.
Secondly, you've totally failed to establish why "he can't pass anything" is a consequential argument. The worst possible case is that Sanders gets stymied by the Republicans on anything. In this scenario, his achievements are... exactly the same as Clinton's! The best possible scenario is that he does more. So it's not a positive point for Clinton to say "some of Sanders' stuff won't get passed". Well, no shit. But neither will hers; Republicans aren't going to go "well, it's Clinton who got elected, let's allow her to pass stuff!". They hate her more than they hate Sanders!
Have you sent your resume to the Hillary campaign because you argue her case with specifics against Bernie better than they do.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You're right, I'll correct my statement - no experience in dealing with successful health care reform, unlike Sanders.
Sorry I won't let you hand wave this way. Allies don't give Republicans free attack ads. Allies would either stay quiet or complain behind closed doors. He absolutely has a problem with congressional Democrats, the people who would actually be the ones who come up with bills for any of Bernie's policies
cartoon_soldier
Member
What has Sanders done on healthcare exactly?
Aaron Strife
Banned
Plus Clinton spearheaded SCHIP, which between Medicare and Obamacare was the largest expansion of health insurance in America.
But I dunno that doesn't count I guess or something whatever.
UltimaPooh
Member
Well because it's not a generality? Again he outlines what that means.
You go to the doctor or the pharmacist. You get what you need. You don't pay for anything because the government will pay for it.
Is that pretty simplistic for a plan? Yeah, but that's the point... that's ho straight forward single payer is supposed to be. Where he will get the funds for such a thing is where the rest of the plan kicks in.
Okay, okay. Maybe Bernie doesn't have a clear path to get there. I'll give you that.
But I also believe that Hilary doesn't have a clear path with her tweaks. Again her plan is essential devoid of any real details and again is just generalities as you would put. She wants to tweak ACA and bring down costs but I don't see her plan to do that.
In any case it's clear neither of us are budging on this because we both believe that either party's plan doesn't provide enough info on how to do things. I'm willing to admit that Bernie's plan doesn't outline a lot of things but it is clear in what it proposes it wants to do. Is it achievable in this political climate, most likely not... but it is something that I do want and that's how I vote. If you're cool with just tweaking ACA more power to you.
His campaign proposals make a lot of claims that have already been shown to be untrue, so it's pretty hard to take him seriously as a detail oriented person. His entire campaign is organized around a lazy indifference to everything other than easy answers and fat cats.
Citation need for the huge role he played on the ACA. It largely came out of the Senate Finance committee, which he never sat on.
I don't care if the state department is not about health care (also Hillarycare was a thing). It's about being able to get into issues. Obama wasn't a specific health care maven as he was getting sworn in, he's just a guy who demonstrated that he cared about details, cared about managing things, sweated the small stuff. Bernie's entire organizing principle for his campaign is the exact opposite of that.
Given that he wants to replace the ACA, and given the mistakes he makes in his own policy, and given his tendency immediately gravitate to pie in the sky solutions, why should I trust him to be a small detail oriented policy tweaker? Why do you?
You've spoken earlier about how Bernie's one-note campaign is his strength, but this is the person he projects. The easy answers, pie in the sky guy. If he really considers the ACA a good option, why campaign so hard against it?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
He did. It's called the American Health Security Act, S. 1782. You can read all 189 pages of it online.
Coriolanus
Banned
Hand waive what? I fully acknowledged it. Its expected. Why the fuck would democrats support Sanders presidential bid when Hills is running? They'd have to be fucking idiots to do that, and as gohmert shows, idiots stop at the house.
eBay Huckster
Member
I mean, even that's still not quite right - she was instrumental in formulating and passing SCHIP.
(As an aside, I'm finding it hilarious that much like a certain other reform law, SCHIP was based on a Massachusetts program.)
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
He helped author the ACA. More specifically, he wrote the American Health Security Act 2009, elements of which were subsumed into the ACA.
RustyNails
Member
Elaugaufein
Member
Yep, just going to agree that past political history is that especially with identification labels. I would have identified as being on the conservative side of the fence in my early adulthood too. If you'd quizzed me on my actual policy positions you'd have found some weird ass discrepancies.
(And yeah my family background was half rural and half wealthy which coincidentally describes the Australian Conservative side of politics in a nutshell)
(And yeah my family background was half rural and half wealthy which coincidentally describes the Australian Conservative side of politics in a nutshell)
Cesare Borgia
Banned
She supported Barry Goldwater in 1964, this is common knowledge. I don't think it's unfair to contrast here. Obama did the same thing to her in 2008.
In an ordinary election, Senators remain neutral, at best you would hear things like "Bernie is great but Hillary is better", not
"Sanders supporters want "to dismiss the fact that none of his colleagues have endorsed him, but you cant, McCaskill said. He hasnt had the ability to get consensus or lead people.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I'm partially Australian, there's an affectionate element to it. I believe the American equivalent is "bullcrap" or something.
Slackerish
Member
Here is the link (since you didn't include it): https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/1782
Coriolanus
Banned
QuiteWhittle
Member
Isn't that overstating his involvement a bit?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hecking-bernie-sanders-claim-he-helped-write/
No wonder McCaskill is to be the first lined up against the wall for counter revolutionary activities.
User 463088
Banned
And all of his cosponsors in the Senate have endorsed him!
Oh wait, no one in the Senate has endorsed him. My bad. No one cosponsored it either.
And, really, please never bring up S1782. That's the state run national plan which is just ridiculous.
Black Mamba
Member
Whoa, I never said he'd abolish the ACA. Where did that come from?
That's not what that means. What this means is like when Romeo kills himself because he thinks Juliet is dead, but the audience knows she's not. You're citing dramatic irony which can only be used in literary works (even in play form).
This is a straw man because I never argued Hillary or Bernie can't pass anything. I think they both can pass legislation! Surprise!
But I believe Hillary can pass more legislation that matters in certain areas. I'm unconvinced Bernie would be willing to take small victories when he can't get the big ones.
Again, my pie in the sky argument relates to his messaging. Not that his entire Presidency would be a pie in the sky or nothing ever in anything.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think so. Elements of the AHSA 2009 were adopted word for word. I mean he wasn't a principal author, but he wrote more of it than e.g. Clinton.
User 463088
Banned
And Hillary's been to more countries than Bernie, therefore she's a map!
I just got an email from Hillary asking me if I can be one of the four people Hillary needs. I think my queen is wanting me to be a human sacrifice to help her campaign. I'll miss you all.
ugaboga232
Member
Do you have any proof that hillary will pass more or is it purely gut feeling (not trying to call you out it just seems that everything rests on our own opinions of the candidates)?
As someone training in the healthcare field, little tweaks to ACA will not fix the large structural problems in place. A lot of people will suffer, its not just a casual thing (at least to me). If hillary put out some real details on a public option or some legit policy then I would be very happy but everyone says shes a policy wiz but i dont see anything.
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