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PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada

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U

User 463088

Banned
I had a feeling that if it looked like Bernie would lose, my Facebook freed would become this black hole of complete and total bull shit. I was right. Ugh.
 
Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
The Technomancer said:
But the odds of Trump winning are also, by all actual measures, pretty low. That's the dilemma I'm trying to present to you: you can have your ideal candidate, but at the risk of your worst nightmare, when the current reality is that neither is actually likely.
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I used to think any dem candidate would beat any GOP candidate, but I've recently felt like this may not be the case with Trump. Assuming Trump gets the nomination he will likely moderate on some social issues (at least what he can get away with) and then on economic be a lot more populist, which the general population would identify with.

He will say true statements about Hillary's establishment record and I feel like it could convince general working people who think he's for their interests. Hillary isn't for their interests either though obviously, which is why these choices would be so sad.
 
H

HylianTom

Banned
adam387 said:
I had a feeling that if it looked like Bernie would lose, my Facebook freed would become this black hole of complete and total bull shit. I was right. Ugh.
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The Nevada sting has almost completely worn off, and the Reuters poll is providing a cruel dollop of hope.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Elaugaufein said:
Okay I can see the moral argument against acceleration-ism but what's the argument that it's fascist ?
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Literally the accelerationist argument is that we need to allow and promote the decay of the state and the suffering of the people in order to create an opportunity for rejuvenation via political violence and purges.

Elaugaufein said:
I mean there's also an argument to be made that acceleration-ism is more moral than the alternative in some circumstances: Assume you're losing: Your options are to fight a slowly losing war in which suffering steadily increases every year until the place is effectively burned down or to burn the place down and start over Which is more moral ? (No, for the record , I don't think there's any actual functioning Democracy on the planet at the moment that meets this criteria, I'm just pointing out that "burning the place down" can actually minimize net suffering.)
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I mean, sure, if you assume a priori that things can't ever get any better until they get to the point of maximum terrible, but then they can start getting better right away, then jumping to maximum terrible is much more likely to be the right choice. That seems like cheating to me. If things are so oppressive that it is impossible to improve them, I don't really see why they would be easier to improve once they've been totally destroyed. It does not seem like a particularly plausible scenario.
 
K

Kyosaiga

Banned
What will it take for people to realize that Hillary is a goddamn progressive? I mean holy shit her Senate voting patterns are public record FFS!

And why if she was some closet republican would the GOO be so heavily invested in seeing her candidacy fail? What kind of dumbass logic am I reading?
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Angry Fork said:
I never understood how liberals used to condemn the institution of marriage as generally patriarchal and oppressive (which I feel they're right about), but when it comes to gay marriage it's some extremely important thing. I don't really get it.

Not being able to marry someone is nowhere near as oppressive as black people being executed by police, slaughtering children overseas with drones or having bankers control almost every facet of public life.

All of this is predicated on the belief that Hillary has a better chance of beating republicans than Bernie though, which isn't true. Bernie supports gay rights and has done so in stronger tone, for longer than Hillary, there's no reason not to support him in this case.
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Gay marriage < Campaign finance reform, and the Socialist is electable, got it, you do you.
 
E

Elaugaufein

Member
pigeon said:
Literally the accelerationist argument is that we need to allow and promote the decay of the state and the suffering of the people in order to create an opportunity for rejuvenation via political violence and purges.



I mean, sure, if you assume a priori that things can't ever get any better until they get to the point of maximum terrible, but then they can start getting better right away, then jumping to maximum terrible is much more likely to be the right choice. That seems like cheating to me. If things are so oppressive that it is impossible to improve them, I don't really see why they would be easier to improve once they've been totally destroyed. It does not seem like a particularly plausible scenario.
Click to expand...

The argument doesn't even actually require right away (at maximum terrible), it just requires that maximum terrible be reached before improvement can occur. Actually on further thought it's weaker than that, there's a point along the slide where even if you could start improving things at the same rate as maximum terrible, that the combined negative of moving that far down the slide still makes it better to skip to maximum terrible.

Yeah, it's definitely hypothetical I think, you'd be looking at something like a Strong Police/Surveilance State.
 
H

hipsterpants

Member
The other day I had a guy on my FB feed that said he would leave the country if it's Clinton vs. Trump because Clinton is basically a Republican. I can't imagine what it's like being such an extremist that you are never satisfied. Must be a depressing experience.
 
J

jtb

Banned
the bizarre thing about the accelerationism argument is that if you build a political system that allows for one party/ideology to maximize their power in a very short period of time and make policy changes accordingly -- why wouldn't they use their power to also make policies that make it very difficult for the opposition to ever regain control of the government? we see that happen all the time in the United States, which is designed for slow change... why wouldn't that power also be magnified in an accelerationist environment?
 
E

Ecotic

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Who?

Seriously, which politicians are going to be the more extreme left candidates? Many of the extreme candidates for the Republicans came from an anti-Obama wave that doesn't happen for parties that have the president.
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Someone young and electrifying. I differ in that I don't think they have to be as extreme as Bernie Sanders, just believably support some of bigger issue ideas like single payer healthcare and not be an ethical wreck. A younger woman who looks like Kamala Harris or Tulsi Gabbard and had the right policy credentials and resume could go far.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
hipsterpants said:
The other day I had a guy on my FB feed that said he would leave the country if it's Clinton vs. Trump because Clinton is basically a Republican. I can't imagine what it's like being such an extremist that you are never satisfied. Must be a depressing experience.
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Other than FDR, what president has leaned more to the left than Hillary? Not sure if there is one?
 
Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Gay marriage < Campaign finance reform, and the Socialist is electable, got it, you do you.
Click to expand...

It's not just about campaign reform. It's taking power back from a class of people that have stolen the wealth of generations and exploited working people and the poor (which affects LGBT people worse, especially transsexuals).

Being able to marry someone is not more important than being able to pay rent, get access to college education, etc. which are things the rich have been making it harder for all of us to do. I don't believe it has to be an either-or option though, we can do both, which is why Bernie is better than Hillary.
 
S

Sianos

Member
the only people i ever see endorse accelerationism are those with the privilege to be least affected by it

Maledict said:
The idea that Hilary Clinton, who voted 93% of the time with Sander's, isn't even centre left is actually quite insulting, and definitely very stupid.
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most of the people claiming that only voted with obama 50% of the time anyways

after they abandoned obama twice in the midterms, i fully expect them to abandon a potential president bernie in 2018 after he's made good progress but hasn't been able to magically fix everything
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Elaugaufein said:
The argument doesn't even actually require right away (at maximum terrible), it just requires that maximum terrible be reached before improvement can occur. Yeah, it's definitely hypothetical I think, you'd be looking at something like a Strong Police/Surveilance State.
Click to expand...

I feel like there's already been one of those and it's the USSR, and it fell to internal pressures. Admittedly things got pretty bad before that happened, but I don't think it was accelerated. Like, a police state is actually a really bad target for accelerationism because definitionally you don't actually have the freedom to do anything to accelerate its failure!
 
E

Elaugaufein

Member
Kyosaiga said:
What will it take for people to realize that Hillary is a goddamn progressive? I mean holy shit her Senate voting patterns are public record FFS!

And why if she was some closet republican would the GOO be so heavily invested in seeing her candidacy fail? What kind of dumbass logic am I reading?
Click to expand...

Yes, anyone who thinks Hillary Clinton is a Republican by current standards is a moron. And given your electoral system any one left of center on any axis (and not overall right wing) except maybe hawkishness , should vote for her in the General over anyone running in the Republican Primary.
 
K

Kyosaiga

Banned
Angry Fork said:
It's not just about campaign reform. It's taking power back from a class of people that have stolen the wealth of generations and exploited working people and the poor (which affects LGBT people worse, especially transsexuals).

Being able to marry someone is not more important than being able to pay rent, get access to college education, etc. which are things the rich have been making it harder for all of us to do. I don't believe it has to be an either-or option though, we can do both, which is why Bernie is better than Hillary.
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No he's not. Not even fucking close. Bernie has no ode what the fuck he's talking about because hes got his head completely up his own ass.

His ideas range from decent, to laughably fucking terrible. His plans for said ideas are arguably even worse.

When he said he wanted to place farmers on the Board for the Federal Reserve I knew for a fact he had absolutely no clue what to do about our present situation but instead just promise rainbows, unicorns and good old fashioned horseshit to naive youngsters who don't live in the real world
 
Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
Kyosaiga said:
No he's not. Not even fucking close. Bernie has no ode what the fuck he's talking about because hes got his head completely up his own ass.

His ideas range from decent, to laughably fucking terrible. His plans for said ideas are arguably even worse.

When he said he wanted to place farmers on the Board for the Federal Reserve I knew for a fact he had absolutely no clue what to do about our present situation but instead just promise rainbows, unicorns and good old fashioned horseshit to naive youngsters who don't live in the real world
Click to expand...

His ideas are center-left social democratic policies that have worked all over the world for generations
1.0
. Be more mad that the US population, especially among people under 40, is moving further left.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Kyosaiga said:
When he said he wanted to place farmers on the Board for the Federal Reserve I knew for a fact he had absolutely no clue what to do about our present situation but instead just promise rainbows, unicorns and good old fashioned horseshit to naive youngsters who don't live in the real world
Click to expand...

He did what now?

Kangi said:
I'll echo "We love the poorly educated".
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And there we go.
 
A

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
I wonder how much Jeb's ego was hurt losing to not only Trump but Cruz too. I wouldn't be surprised if Cruz became hated by the other candidates the more they got to know him.

Hate Ted
Hated
 
H

Holmes

Member
hipsterpants said:
The other day I had a guy on my FB feed that said he would leave the country if it's Clinton vs. Trump because Clinton is basically a Republican. I can't imagine what it's like being such an extremist that you are never satisfied. Must be a depressing experience.
Click to expand...
My sister-in-law said Clinton is basically a Republican and I tore into her.
 
H

Hilbert

Deep into his 30th decade
jtb said:
the bizarre thing about the accelerationism argument is that if you build a political system that allows for one party/ideology to maximize their power in a very short period of time and make policy changes accordingly -- why wouldn't they use their power to also make policies that make it very difficult for the opposition to ever regain control of the government? we see that happen all the time in the United States, which is designed for slow change... why wouldn't that power also be magnified in an accelerationist environment?
Click to expand...

I get the distinct impression people are thinking about a violent armed uprising. Which as a parent fucking terrifies me.
 
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